I'm looking at framing the interior of an addition with a full basement
and it appears that lally columns will be neede to support the
floor above the basement.

So I'm, looking for information regarding spacing footing etc,
similar to the tables available for joist and rafter sizing.

A quick Google search turned up a lot of useful information
abouit replacing them, but nothing regarding installing them
'from scratch'.

I know enough engineering to understand something that
is intended for a contractor or architect.

--

FF

wrote:
I'm looking at framing the interior of an addition with a full basement
and it appears that lally columns will be neede to support the
floor above the basement.

So I'm, looking for information regarding spacing footing etc,
similar to the tables available for joist and rafter sizing.

A quick Google search turned up a lot of useful information
abouit replacing them, but nothing regarding installing them
'from scratch'.

I know enough engineering to understand something that
is intended for a contractor or architect.

Spacing of Lally columns is determined primarily by the deflection and
load requirements of the beam, and secondarily by the load capacity of
the column itself. Spacing of 8' or 10' is pretty common. Similarly
the footing size is dpeendent on the load and the bearing capacity of
the soil. 18" x 18" and 24" x 24" are pretty common sizes.

You need to start with your design loads, soil type, and restrictive
dimensions (beam height to allow head room in the basement for
example). Start by designing the joists, then the beam and column
spacing, finally the foundation requirements.

If you're pulling permits you'll need engineered drawings. If you're
not pulling permits you still need engineered drawings.

R

to follow up on Rico's advice, if you use engineered lumber for your
beams (LVL, glulam, parallam and the like), the company that supplies
them will also supply you with the engineering you need. go to a good
contractor oriented lumberyard and ask them. in the past i have just
given the beam company a rough sketch showing pertinent information and
they have been able to size beams.

marson wrote:
to follow up on Rico's advice, if you use engineered lumber for your
beams (LVL, glulam, parallam and the like), the company that supplies
them will also supply you with the engineering you need. go to a good
contractor oriented lumberyard and ask them. in the past i have just
given the beam company a rough sketch showing pertinent information and
they have been able to size beams.

It's not the beams I need sized. It's the columns.

Where can I find the sizes and allowable loads for the Lally columns
themselves?

--

FF

RicodJour wrote:
wrote:
marson wrote:
to follow up on Rico's advice, if you use engineered lumber for your
beams (LVL, glulam, parallam and the like), the company that supplies
them will also supply you with the engineering you need. go to a good
contractor oriented lumberyard and ask them. in the past i have just
given the beam company a rough sketch showing pertinent information and
they have been able to size beams.

It's not the beams I need sized. It's the columns.

You must size the beam to determine the spacing of the columns.
Whether the beam is already in place or new, you still have to
determine the beam's capacity at the same time you design the beam
supports. If you don't do that, you're cutting corners, which means
you're going to ignore something you shouldn't.



Well whoopee dee doo! Give the OP some credit for brains. It's
clear he knows this. What he wants to know is what load the different
size lally column and footers can support, which you obviously can't
answer, so why tell him what he already knows?





You'd be wise to take marson's recommendation and fax/email a sketch of
what you want to do and have the yard work up a solution. It's a free
service.

Where can I find the sizes and allowable loads for the Lally columns
themselves?

Lally column is a trademarked name and most likely not what you will be
using. There are permanent adjustable steel posts with the screw
adjustment at one end (doesn't matter which end you put it on), and
there are steel pipe columns that are fabricated to size. Each
manufacturer has their own load tables.

This chart gives generic information:
http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/exte...Steel/D2.1.pdf
This gives information on one specific brand of column:
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...C/93-36.02.pdf

There are many factors involved in sizing structural members. Rarely
is it as simple as picking an item from a chart. Most times people
can't even figure the loads properly - pretty much makes it impossible
to design a solution.

R

RicodJour wrote:
wrote:
marson wrote:
to follow up on Rico's advice, if you use engineered lumber for your
beams (LVL, glulam, parallam and the like), the company that supplies
them will also supply you with the engineering you need. go to a good
contractor oriented lumberyard and ask them. in the past i have just
given the beam company a rough sketch showing pertinent information and
they have been able to size beams.

It's not the beams I need sized. It's the columns.

You must size the beam to determine the spacing of the columns.
Whether the beam is already in place or new, you still have to
determine the beam's capacity at the same time you design the beam
supports. If you don't do that, you're cutting corners, which means
you're going to ignore something you shouldn't.


Perhaps I was unclear. I have sized the beams already, I need to size

the columns and their footers.

You'd be wise to take marson's recommendation and fax/email a sketch of
what you want to do and have the yard work up a solution. It's a free
service.

I may do that to size the footers. I'll check at 84 lumber later
today.


Where can I find the sizes and allowable loads for the Lally columns
themselves?

Lally column is a trademarked name and most likely not what you will be
using.

Like Romex (TM).

There are permanent adjustable steel posts with the screw
adjustment at one end (doesn't matter which end you put it on), and
there are steel pipe columns that are fabricated to size.

Yes. If it weren't for building codes I'd design and make my own.
I expect a building inspector will not sign off on a homemade column.

Each
manufacturer has their own load tables.

This chart gives generic information:
http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/exte...Steel/D2.1.pdf
This gives information on one specific brand of column:
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...C/93-36.02.pdf

Excellent, that is just what I needed. There are literally hundreds
of webpages about Lolly columns that are devoid of useful information.


There are many factors involved in sizing structural members. Rarely
is it as simple as picking an item from a chart. Most times people
can't even figure the loads properly - pretty much makes it impossible
to design a solution.

Last I heard, none of the equipment I designed for nuclear power
plants has had any structural (or other) failures. I think I can
handle
my addition.

--

FF

wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
wrote:
marson wrote:
to follow up on Rico's advice, if you use engineered lumber for your
beams (LVL, glulam, parallam and the like), the company that supplies
them will also supply you with the engineering you need. go to a good
contractor oriented lumberyard and ask them. in the past i have just
given the beam company a rough sketch showing pertinent information and
they have been able to size beams.

It's not the beams I need sized. It's the columns.

You must size the beam to determine the spacing of the columns.
Whether the beam is already in place or new, you still have to
determine the beam's capacity at the same time you design the beam
supports. If you don't do that, you're cutting corners, which means
you're going to ignore something you shouldn't.



Well whoopee dee doo! Give the OP some credit for brains. It's
clear he knows this. What he wants to know is what load the different
size lally column and footers can support, which you obviously can't
answer, so why tell him what he already knows?


I appreciate your confidence. But note that RicodJour did provide some
nice links to just that information.

As someone who often explains how to make a clock, I'm not
in a position to criticize.

--

FF

wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

Perhaps I was unclear. I have sized the beams already, I need to size
the columns and their footers.

It was a bit unclear. The first couple of posts made it sound like you
didn't think the beam was involved with the column spacing.

You'd be wise to take marson's recommendation and fax/email a sketch of
what you want to do and have the yard work up a solution. It's a free
service.

I may do that to size the footers. I'll check at 84 lumber later
today.

I doubt that a lumberyard will give you that information. The
beam/column stuff is part of the engineered lumber design software.
Foundations aren't.

You need to determine the type of soil you have, deteremine its
capacity and then just make sure you have the right distribution area
for the footer.
http://www.concretenetwork.com/concr...ils_matter.htm
Use a suitably large factor of safety, at least 2.

{snip}

There are permanent adjustable steel posts with the screw
adjustment at one end (doesn't matter which end you put it on), and
there are steel pipe columns that are fabricated to size.

Yes. If it weren't for building codes I'd design and make my own.
I expect a building inspector will not sign off on a homemade column.

It's not much of a design, really. Pipe cut to length, top and bottom
cap plates, drill some holes for the bolts. Frankly, I don't know how
the inspector would be able to tell who made the columns. They all
look the same and are painted primer red.

Each
manufacturer has their own load tables.

This chart gives generic information:
http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/exte...Steel/D2.1.pdf
This gives information on one specific brand of column:
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...C/93-36.02.pdf

Excellent, that is just what I needed. There are literally hundreds
of webpages about Lolly columns that are devoid of useful information.

It's all in the search terms.

There are many factors involved in sizing structural members. Rarely
is it as simple as picking an item from a chart. Most times people
can't even figure the loads properly - pretty much makes it impossible
to design a solution.

Last I heard, none of the equipment I designed for nuclear power
plants has had any structural (or other) failures. I think I can
handle my addition.

The question you initially asked about spacing of the columns was
phrased in a way that made it seem like you didn't understand the
correlation between beam strength and column spacing. Later you said
you had sized the beam. That was confusing - if you sized the beam,
you had to select a span, which gives you the column spacing and would
mean that you had already answered your own question.

I emphasize safety, whether in the design or actual construction. I've
seen too many accidents and had to clean up too many messes to do
otherwise. Giving advice over the internet is a crap shoot sometimes.
You never know if the person asking the question really understands
what is going on, or whether they've just googled and picked up some
buzzwords so the questions sound professional.

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?

R

On 5 May 2006 17:39:33 -0700, wrote:


I'm looking at framing the interior of an addition with a full basement
and it appears that lally columns will be neede to support the
floor above the basement.

So I'm, looking for information regarding spacing footing etc,
similar to the tables available for joist and rafter sizing.

A quick Google search turned up a lot of useful information
abouit replacing them, but nothing regarding installing them
'from scratch'.

I know enough engineering to understand something that
is intended for a contractor or architect.


from:
http://www.destefanoassociates.com/t...ly_columns.pdf

Unbraced Length: 6' 7' 8' 9' 10' 11'
3.5" column 8.8 8.5 8.2 7.8 7.3 n/a
4" column 11.4 11.1 10.7 10.3 9.9 9.4

(In kips {being 1000 US statute pounds})

The search terms you wanted were
"concentric load" and "lally column".

--Goedjn

I'll bet, however, that if you put up
a series of beams supported only at the ends,
(like a timber frame), you'll find that
you can clear the entire span with no posts
in the middle. If you use joist
hangers instead of setting your floor-joists
ON the beam, you can use beams that are
around 10" deeper than you thought you could.

RicodJour wrote:

...

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?


I have a row-house adjacent to an existing, and now vacant
boiler room, which I also own. Right now the plan is for a
basement workshop with the first floor being living space.

A problem is that the distance from the basement floor to the
first floor ceiling is 14' 7" instead of the 15' 7" called for in the
plans. My assumption is that during construction the carpenters
cut all their studs to the same length. The boiler room studwall
is set directly ont he foundation whereas for the living units
it was set on top of the first floor joists and flooring.

--

FF

Goedjn wrote:
On 5 May 2006 17:39:33 -0700, wrote:

...
from:
http://www.destefanoassociates.com/t...ly_columns.pdf

Unbraced Length: 6' 7' 8' 9' 10' 11'
3.5" column 8.8 8.5 8.2 7.8 7.3 n/a
4" column 11.4 11.1 10.7 10.3 9.9 9.4

(In kips {being 1000 US statute pounds})

The search terms you wanted were
"concentric load" and "lally column".

Thanks.



I'll bet, however, that if you put up
a series of beams supported only at the ends,
(like a timber frame), you'll find that
you can clear the entire span with no posts
in the middle. If you use joist
hangers instead of setting your floor-joists
ON the beam, you can use beams that are
around 10" deeper than you thought you could.

I had already planned on using joist hangers.
What I'm working on now is trying to reduce the
depth of the beams and the number of supporting
columns to maximize the utility of the basement
area.

Were it not for building codes (and inspectors) I'd consider
running a series of box-beams accross in lieu of joists. That'd
be expensive and labor intensive, but worth it in the
long run.

Wood I-beams or Laminated beams might help, but
all of the wood I-beams I have seen locally use OSB
for the web. No doubt they are adequate when new
but I worry that in the future, something like a leaking
pipe might destroy it. 'Real' wood beams retain their
integrity if they are dried out again right away after
getting wet. My experience with OSB is that it
is pretty much ruined if it gets a good soaking.

OTOH, I could waterproof them, using
something like West system epoxy.

--

FF

On 8 May 2006 10:29:31 -0700, wrote:


RicodJour wrote:

...

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?


I have a row-house adjacent to an existing, and now vacant
boiler room, which I also own. Right now the plan is for a
basement workshop with the first floor being living space.

A problem is that the distance from the basement floor to the
first floor ceiling is 14' 7" instead of the 15' 7" called for in the
plans. My assumption is that during construction the carpenters
cut all their studs to the same length. The boiler room studwall
is set directly ont he foundation whereas for the living units
it was set on top of the first floor joists and flooring.

Is there another floor above that? What's code for
finished-floor to finished-ceiling where you are?
7'0" ? If the row-house is detached, I'd seriously
consider jacking it up and adding 2 courses of
block to the top of the foundation.

Goedjn wrote:
On 8 May 2006 10:29:31 -0700, wrote:


RicodJour wrote:

...

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?


I have a row-house adjacent to an existing, and now vacant
boiler room, which I also own. Right now the plan is for a
basement workshop with the first floor being living space.

A problem is that the distance from the basement floor to the
first floor ceiling is 14' 7" instead of the 15' 7" called for in the
plans. My assumption is that during construction the carpenters
cut all their studs to the same length. The boiler room studwall
is set directly ont he foundation whereas for the living units
it was set on top of the first floor joists and flooring.

Is there another floor above that? What's code for
finished-floor to finished-ceiling where you are?
7'0" ? If the row-house is detached, I'd seriously
consider jacking it up and adding 2 courses of
block to the top of the foundation.

The main unit is two floors over a crawlspace. The adjacent
boiler room is a full basement with one story (less about one foot)
above it, and no floor in-between. The foundation is the same
height all the way accross. Both units are 18 feet wide and 28
feet long.

Power lines run less than foot above the roof of the additoin
and it is attached, two factors that make me hesitant to jack it up.
OTOH, if the power Company is required to restring the power
lines on their own nickle that approach might deserve a second
look.

If I did, I think I'd raise the roof only and put in in cripple studs
under the (new) top plate rather than extend the foundation.
Oh, there is also a 4' by 4' chimney between the two units that
complicates that plan.

ISTR hearing that Frank Lloyd Wright liked ot make his
interior ceilings exactly seven feet high. I don't think I'd
like that whether code permits it or not.

So, two options are to use a lower floor in the addition,
which makes the basement much less usable, or
convert the existing roof fafters to an A-frame or scissors
design, which I consider to be quite easily done, though
I'd need a Civil Engineer to sign off on it to meet code.

The present roof has a pitch of 7.5 using 2x6 roof rafters,
and full span 2x6 ceiling joists and a series of 1x6 verticals
(Don't know what they're called), joining the rafters from the
ridge beam down to the center of the joists.

The shingles were just replaced about three years ago and
the rafters, joists and sheeting are in excellent condition.

The floor under the main unit has a triple 2x12 center beam
centered down the length, supported by masonry footers
and 2x8 joists. Were I to do the floor in the addition
the same way I'd support the beam with Lolly columns.

But I'm moving away from that now to see if I can eliminate
the columns altogether, or at least move them to where they
can be located inside a studwall next to a stair case.

Oh, did I mention the ash elevator or the coal bunker?

--

FF

On 8-May-2006, wrote:

Were it not for building codes (and inspectors) I'd consider
running a series of box-beams accross in lieu of joists.

There's nothing in the building codes that forbids this - you just have
to prove that it's at least as good as standard construction.

Are you using several steel beams or one long beam spanning all
columns?

Mike

wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?

I have a row-house adjacent to an existing, and now vacant
boiler room, which I also own. Right now the plan is for a
basement workshop with the first floor being living space.

A problem is that the distance from the basement floor to the
first floor ceiling is 14' 7" instead of the 15' 7" called for in the
plans. My assumption is that during construction the carpenters
cut all their studs to the same length. The boiler room studwall
is set directly ont he foundation whereas for the living units
it was set on top of the first floor joists and flooring.

That sucks. If the carpenters made such a major mistake, why aren't
they being held accountable?

R

RicodJour wrote:
wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

Good luck with your addition. What exactly are you building?

I have a row-house adjacent to an existing, and now vacant
boiler room, which I also own. Right now the plan is for a
basement workshop with the first floor being living space.

A problem is that the distance from the basement floor to the
first floor ceiling is 14' 7" instead of the 15' 7" called for in the
plans. My assumption is that during construction the carpenters
cut all their studs to the same length. The boiler room studwall
is set directly on the foundation whereas for the living units
it was set on top of the first floor joists and flooring.

That sucks. If the carpenters made such a major mistake, why aren't
they being held accountable?


It was built by the Federal Government in 1942.

Do you know a lawyer who would be interested in taking my case?

--

FF