RP wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"RP" wrote in message

7) Excessive condenser temperature drop, caused by excessively low ambient
temp, precipitation, water spray, oversized condenser fan motor, condenser
fan motor RPM too high, blade pitch to high, wrong blade, wrong capacitor,
voltage too high.


Oversized fan motor? That will not have any effect if it is turning the
same rpm. The speed of roation is going to change the air flow, bt if a 3/4
hp motor turns at 1140 rpm and a 1.5 hp motor turns at 1140 rpm, the cfm of
air moved by the fan will be the same.

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new one
is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at 2,000
rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at 2000 rpm is
still the same.

Well that's called wishful thinking on your part. A typical indoor
blower for instance, has three or four speed taps. All of these will
cause the motor to run at near 1200RPM under no load. Low speed is only
lower because it has lower torque and thus more slippage. The same
applies to a 1075 RPM condenser fan motor. If you oversize sufficiently
you can approach and RPM of 1200, which I think you'll agree is much
faster than 1075.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

You missed his question on the increase of air through the condenser
coil with horse power increase and not RPM.

TURTLE

RP wrote:
TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


Stretch wrote:


Turtle,

If the OP replaced an 825 RPM motor with a 1075 RPM motor, the
condensor air flow would go up quite a bit. Check your fan laws. This
would lower the head pressure which could also lower the suction
pressure enough to start freezing the indoor coil.


Snipe add on's

This is Turtle.

They don't have no fan laws that would speak about too much air across
the coil as small as going from a 825 rpm motor to a 1075 rpm motor. It
would move more air but it would play very little difference in the
head or the suction pressure as to what you say trouble or freeze up
the evaperator coil.

Also in my life i have changed bunches -- 825 Lennox cond. fan motors
over to 1075 and just change the blade or increase the h.P. and leave
the blade.

So you've hacked up a bunch of peoples systems. That's nice. Did you at
least consult the fan laws when you only increased HP and left the
blade? You might be surprised at how much higher in HP you have to go to
keep running amps down to the nameplate rating of the new motor.



This is Turtle.

Earth to Richard , been there and done that. I use to have a chart for
the units you wanted to convert. yes Pecker Wood , I went to Lennox and
got the required cu. ft. per minute for all their stuff and keep a
blade for each unit as to 2 and 5 ton condenser blades. There is 6
blades that would cover most any of the brands and just keep them on
the truck. In the last 5 or 10 years the number of blade have changed
so much that you have to get the right blade for the job. there was
very few Trane around and lennox was the only 825 rpm motors needing to
change out this away. Then when everybody stated the 850 rpm motors I
stopped doing that. In my area a Lennox Wholesale cost of a 850 rpm
motor [1960's & 70's ] was more than What i got for the whole job if it
was a 1075 rpm motor. After the Lennox Union Strike we had to go to
other companys to sell equipment and Lennox cut our dealer ship because
they would not ship equipment for 8 months and expected use to shut
down our business till the strick was over. We went back to Rheem /
Ruud/ dunn & Bush / singer / others which got them to killing us for
parts because we did not wait out the strick and stay loyle to Lennox.

In 1970 Lennox wanted $141.00 wholesale for 1/3 house power 850 rpm
condenser fan motor We changed out 1076 condenser fan motor for $125.00
total cost.

Ok, you've covered your ass on one of the two statements that you made.
How about the other statement that you left the old blade and just
upsized the motor when going from 825 to 1075RPM? Sure you can adjust
the charge, but like I said, the system is now mismatched, not to
mention the fact that the OEM blade wasn't necessarily designed to
withstand that kind of added stress. I'll tell you now that I've
converted a couple of 825s to 1075, but I didn't leave the original
blade on them. You're correct about the pricing, not an issue these
days, but it was at one time. Just keep in mind that those units that
you left with excessive condenser airflow never worked right after you
left. Hell yes they *worked*, but that isn't exactly sufficient. If you
cost them $100 dollars extra on their light bill over the life of the
unit then you didn't do them any favors by using the cheaper motor, and
you didn't do yourself any favors either because you made less on that
job than you were supposed to. It isn't your fault they had an 825RPM
motor that was out of stock or 3 weeks out.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

Your words sound good but to a 90 year old fellow and a 30+ year old
system and he said just doctor it up and when i go I can let some else
worry about it.

Now the Uping the horse power and leaving that big ass lennox 24 inch
with 45 degree pitch blade on it was really a no no but only for they
are going to change the system out soon like in a month or two.

Now the blade causing a extra $100.00 on the light bill a month. Hell
here in louisiana in the 1970's we did not know what a $100.00 light
bill was or did they go that high.

TURTLE

TURTLE wrote:

CBHVAC wrote:

"TURTLE" wrote in message
groups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:

"TURTLE" wrote in message
legroups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:

"Michael." wrote in message
oglegroups.com...

The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The
new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I
replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up out
of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did
not,
you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation to
height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have changed
the
operational characteristics of the unit, and while you can correct it
with
the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest that either you had an
issue
in addition to the fan motor, or, you have put a fan motor on that is
too
high of an RPM now, and thus, created a charge issue with the unit.



this is Turtle.

the last line you wrote above here about a problem such as the op that
the unit will freeze up with the condender fan blowing too much air. In
40 something years in the HVAC/R business have i ever heard of moving
too much air across a condenser coil will freeze up the evaperator coil
if it is properly charged.

Now you need to rethink what you stated it here about a faster
condenser fan motor speed will freezer the evaperator coil up with a
properly freon charge of the system.

TURTLE


Terry, as a true, licenced, trained, and educated HVAC professional with
a
grasp of the English that I use daily, and a grasp of how a charge issue
can
be created and indeed, seems to be the case here, by a fan with too high
of
a speed that has created a false ambient for the current temps, and COULD
have been corrected without replacing the fan....well, after 40 years
(you
state you started working in HVAC at 6...wow...all those child labor laws
your father should have been fined for) you should know what was being
stated.

Thank you again for proving to those of us that have a clue (lets see,
you
are still, after 40 years, a one man, Pinto wagon band right?) that you
are
indeed, nothing but a sweet talking salesman, that has no idea why the
units
he installs work, but damned if they dont.

This is Turtle

You just spoke the most Hog **** that i've ever heard in my lift. Boy
Howdee do we get some Rookies of the year on this group. Here below i
will make a statement which you will be ask to reply to.


Go on Terry, try to dig out of this one, but its obvious that in this case,
you are clueless, and I suspect in this case, its more for your desire to
attempt a discredit, instead of simply saying you dont understand what is
being discussed.

How about you go on, since you are on a roll, and start with your male
sexual statements next...other than bull****ting someone that simply likes
sweet talk from you about a problem you cant fully diagnose over the net,
you sweet talk em and fail to mention the little things that you would if
you were there.



This is Turtle.

I have to dig no where here. Your have to answer the question about the
increase of the air to the condenser only will cause the evaperator to
freeze up. That is Plain and simple BULL****. If you can't answer
correctly , please don't try to answer question here with BULL****.

Nowe call you on some bull**** is not called flame or discrediting at
all but i want you to explan this Bull**** to me. If you say some
bull**** , be prepaired to explain it.

Damn Turtle. Let's try this:
The evaporator coil is plugged and the U-bends on the coil are already
frosting over, but there is just enough air over the evaporator coil's
fins to keep the frost knocked off of them. Then you go out and put a
higher RPM motor on the condenser, increasing the condenser airflow. Now
the suction pressure is going to drop 3 or 4 pounds from what it was.
The coil then begins to frost over because it was right at freezing
before you changed the motor. The evaporator was *marginally* close to
freezing already, just 32.1 degrees when you got there, or .1 deg above
freezing. So it only has to drop .1deg in order to freeze. But 3 or 4
pounds lower suction means that the coil temp has dropped about 3 or 4
deg, so it's now way below freezing.

So you want to add refrigerant to fix it, wrong already, but let's go
ahead and add some refrigerant. Now the subcool is way too high, the
unit is running less efficiently than before, and because the liquid is
cooler (that's what higher subcool means) as it goes into the evaporator
the suction pressure will never come back up as high as it was before
you changed the motor out. It's now maybe 1 or 2 pounds lower than it
was before, and the coil is 1 or 2 degree colder, or still below
freezing. Ice still forms even when you add refrigerant, unless of
course you overcharge the system, in which case the compressor is going
to go out prematurely, because it'll slug liquid when it gets hotter
outside.

A system is tuned so that all of its parts work together efficiently and
correctly. If you change the balance that was engineered in then you
have hacked up the system and aren't saving the customer a single red
penny. In fact you probably cost them more in the long run than if you
had done it right the first time. If you know what you're doing then you
can actually improve upon the original engineering but you don't seem to
know enough about the system to even keep it at its original efficiency.

hvacrmedic

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"RP" wrote in message


7) Excessive condenser temperature drop, caused by excessively low ambient
temp, precipitation, water spray, oversized condenser fan motor, condenser
fan motor RPM too high, blade pitch to high, wrong blade, wrong capacitor,
voltage too high.


Oversized fan motor? That will not have any effect if it is turning the
same rpm. The speed of roation is going to change the air flow, bt if a 3/4
hp motor turns at 1140 rpm and a 1.5 hp motor turns at 1140 rpm, the cfm of
air moved by the fan will be the same.

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new one
is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at 2,000
rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at 2000 rpm is
still the same.

Well that's called wishful thinking on your part. A typical indoor
blower for instance, has three or four speed taps. All of these will
cause the motor to run at near 1200RPM under no load. Low speed is only
lower because it has lower torque and thus more slippage. The same
applies to a 1075 RPM condenser fan motor. If you oversize sufficiently
you can approach and RPM of 1200, which I think you'll agree is much
faster than 1075.

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

You missed his question on the increase of air through the condenser
coil with horse power increase and not RPM.

Turtle, wtf? I'm worried about you, really.

hvacrmedic

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


RP wrote:


TURTLE wrote:



Stretch wrote:



Turtle,

If the OP replaced an 825 RPM motor with a 1075 RPM motor, the
condensor air flow would go up quite a bit. Check your fan laws. This
would lower the head pressure which could also lower the suction
pressure enough to start freezing the indoor coil.


Snipe add on's

This is Turtle.

They don't have no fan laws that would speak about too much air across
the coil as small as going from a 825 rpm motor to a 1075 rpm motor. It
would move more air but it would play very little difference in the
head or the suction pressure as to what you say trouble or freeze up
the evaperator coil.

Also in my life i have changed bunches -- 825 Lennox cond. fan motors
over to 1075 and just change the blade or increase the h.P. and leave
the blade.

So you've hacked up a bunch of peoples systems. That's nice. Did you at
least consult the fan laws when you only increased HP and left the
blade? You might be surprised at how much higher in HP you have to go to
keep running amps down to the nameplate rating of the new motor.



This is Turtle.

Earth to Richard , been there and done that. I use to have a chart for
the units you wanted to convert. yes Pecker Wood , I went to Lennox and
got the required cu. ft. per minute for all their stuff and keep a
blade for each unit as to 2 and 5 ton condenser blades. There is 6
blades that would cover most any of the brands and just keep them on
the truck. In the last 5 or 10 years the number of blade have changed
so much that you have to get the right blade for the job. there was
very few Trane around and lennox was the only 825 rpm motors needing to
change out this away. Then when everybody stated the 850 rpm motors I
stopped doing that. In my area a Lennox Wholesale cost of a 850 rpm
motor [1960's & 70's ] was more than What i got for the whole job if it
was a 1075 rpm motor. After the Lennox Union Strike we had to go to
other companys to sell equipment and Lennox cut our dealer ship because
they would not ship equipment for 8 months and expected use to shut
down our business till the strick was over. We went back to Rheem /
Ruud/ dunn & Bush / singer / others which got them to killing us for
parts because we did not wait out the strick and stay loyle to Lennox.

In 1970 Lennox wanted $141.00 wholesale for 1/3 house power 850 rpm
condenser fan motor We changed out 1076 condenser fan motor for $125.00
total cost.

Ok, you've covered your ass on one of the two statements that you made.
How about the other statement that you left the old blade and just
upsized the motor when going from 825 to 1075RPM? Sure you can adjust
the charge, but like I said, the system is now mismatched, not to
mention the fact that the OEM blade wasn't necessarily designed to
withstand that kind of added stress. I'll tell you now that I've
converted a couple of 825s to 1075, but I didn't leave the original
blade on them. You're correct about the pricing, not an issue these
days, but it was at one time. Just keep in mind that those units that
you left with excessive condenser airflow never worked right after you
left. Hell yes they *worked*, but that isn't exactly sufficient. If you
cost them $100 dollars extra on their light bill over the life of the
unit then you didn't do them any favors by using the cheaper motor, and
you didn't do yourself any favors either because you made less on that
job than you were supposed to. It isn't your fault they had an 825RPM
motor that was out of stock or 3 weeks out.

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

Your words sound good but to a 90 year old fellow and a 30+ year old
system and he said just doctor it up and when i go I can let some else
worry about it.

Now the Uping the horse power and leaving that big ass lennox 24 inch
with 45 degree pitch blade on it was really a no no but only for they
are going to change the system out soon like in a month or two.

Now the blade causing a extra $100.00 on the light bill a month. Hell
here in louisiana in the 1970's we did not know what a $100.00 light
bill was or did they go that high.

TURTLE


I said "over the life of the unit". More like I was giving you the
benefit of the doubt for them breaking even over 15 years, but in
reality their extra expense on electricity would add up to more than 100
dollars over 15 years. A bunch more.

hvacrmedic

"RP" wrote in message
et...


TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


RP wrote:


TURTLE wrote:



Stretch wrote:



Turtle,

If the OP replaced an 825 RPM motor with a 1075 RPM motor, the
condensor air flow would go up quite a bit. Check your fan laws.
This
would lower the head pressure which could also lower the suction
pressure enough to start freezing the indoor coil.


Snipe add on's

This is Turtle.

They don't have no fan laws that would speak about too much air across
the coil as small as going from a 825 rpm motor to a 1075 rpm motor.
It
would move more air but it would play very little difference in the
head or the suction pressure as to what you say trouble or freeze up
the evaperator coil.

Also in my life i have changed bunches -- 825 Lennox cond. fan motors
over to 1075 and just change the blade or increase the h.P. and leave
the blade.

So you've hacked up a bunch of peoples systems. That's nice. Did you at
least consult the fan laws when you only increased HP and left the
blade? You might be surprised at how much higher in HP you have to go
to
keep running amps down to the nameplate rating of the new motor.



This is Turtle.

Earth to Richard , been there and done that. I use to have a chart for
the units you wanted to convert. yes Pecker Wood , I went to Lennox and
got the required cu. ft. per minute for all their stuff and keep a
blade for each unit as to 2 and 5 ton condenser blades. There is 6
blades that would cover most any of the brands and just keep them on
the truck. In the last 5 or 10 years the number of blade have changed
so much that you have to get the right blade for the job. there was
very few Trane around and lennox was the only 825 rpm motors needing to
change out this away. Then when everybody stated the 850 rpm motors I
stopped doing that. In my area a Lennox Wholesale cost of a 850 rpm
motor [1960's & 70's ] was more than What i got for the whole job if it
was a 1075 rpm motor. After the Lennox Union Strike we had to go to
other companys to sell equipment and Lennox cut our dealer ship because
they would not ship equipment for 8 months and expected use to shut
down our business till the strick was over. We went back to Rheem /
Ruud/ dunn & Bush / singer / others which got them to killing us for
parts because we did not wait out the strick and stay loyle to Lennox.

In 1970 Lennox wanted $141.00 wholesale for 1/3 house power 850 rpm
condenser fan motor We changed out 1076 condenser fan motor for $125.00
total cost.

Ok, you've covered your ass on one of the two statements that you made.
How about the other statement that you left the old blade and just
upsized the motor when going from 825 to 1075RPM? Sure you can adjust
the charge, but like I said, the system is now mismatched, not to
mention the fact that the OEM blade wasn't necessarily designed to
withstand that kind of added stress. I'll tell you now that I've
converted a couple of 825s to 1075, but I didn't leave the original
blade on them. You're correct about the pricing, not an issue these
days, but it was at one time. Just keep in mind that those units that
you left with excessive condenser airflow never worked right after you
left. Hell yes they *worked*, but that isn't exactly sufficient. If you
cost them $100 dollars extra on their light bill over the life of the
unit then you didn't do them any favors by using the cheaper motor, and
you didn't do yourself any favors either because you made less on that
job than you were supposed to. It isn't your fault they had an 825RPM
motor that was out of stock or 3 weeks out.

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

Your words sound good but to a 90 year old fellow and a 30+ year old
system and he said just doctor it up and when i go I can let some else
worry about it.

Now the Uping the horse power and leaving that big ass lennox 24 inch
with 45 degree pitch blade on it was really a no no but only for they
are going to change the system out soon like in a month or two.

Now the blade causing a extra $100.00 on the light bill a month. Hell
here in louisiana in the 1970's we did not know what a $100.00 light
bill was or did they go that high. TURTLE


I said "over the life of the unit". More like I was giving you the benefit
of the doubt for them breaking even over 15 years, but in reality their
extra expense on electricity would add up to more than 100 dollars over 15
years. A bunch more.

hvacrmedic


Terry forgets that the rest of the country, isnt in the stone ages any
longer.

"TURTLE" wrote in message
ups.com...

RP wrote:
TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


Stretch wrote:


Turtle,

If the OP replaced an 825 RPM motor with a 1075 RPM motor, the
condensor air flow would go up quite a bit. Check your fan laws.
This
would lower the head pressure which could also lower the suction
pressure enough to start freezing the indoor coil.


Snipe add on's

This is Turtle.

They don't have no fan laws that would speak about too much air across
the coil as small as going from a 825 rpm motor to a 1075 rpm motor.
It
would move more air but it would play very little difference in the
head or the suction pressure as to what you say trouble or freeze up
the evaperator coil.

Also in my life i have changed bunches -- 825 Lennox cond. fan motors
over to 1075 and just change the blade or increase the h.P. and leave
the blade.

So you've hacked up a bunch of peoples systems. That's nice. Did you at
least consult the fan laws when you only increased HP and left the
blade? You might be surprised at how much higher in HP you have to go
to
keep running amps down to the nameplate rating of the new motor.



This is Turtle.

Earth to Richard , been there and done that. I use to have a chart for
the units you wanted to convert. yes Pecker Wood , I went to Lennox and
got the required cu. ft. per minute for all their stuff and keep a
blade for each unit as to 2 and 5 ton condenser blades. There is 6
blades that would cover most any of the brands and just keep them on
the truck. In the last 5 or 10 years the number of blade have changed
so much that you have to get the right blade for the job. there was
very few Trane around and lennox was the only 825 rpm motors needing to
change out this away. Then when everybody stated the 850 rpm motors I
stopped doing that. In my area a Lennox Wholesale cost of a 850 rpm
motor [1960's & 70's ] was more than What i got for the whole job if it
was a 1075 rpm motor. After the Lennox Union Strike we had to go to
other companys to sell equipment and Lennox cut our dealer ship because
they would not ship equipment for 8 months and expected use to shut
down our business till the strick was over. We went back to Rheem /
Ruud/ dunn & Bush / singer / others which got them to killing us for
parts because we did not wait out the strick and stay loyle to Lennox.

In 1970 Lennox wanted $141.00 wholesale for 1/3 house power 850 rpm
condenser fan motor We changed out 1076 condenser fan motor for $125.00
total cost.

Ok, you've covered your ass on one of the two statements that you made.
How about the other statement that you left the old blade and just
upsized the motor when going from 825 to 1075RPM? Sure you can adjust
the charge, but like I said, the system is now mismatched, not to
mention the fact that the OEM blade wasn't necessarily designed to
withstand that kind of added stress. I'll tell you now that I've
converted a couple of 825s to 1075, but I didn't leave the original
blade on them. You're correct about the pricing, not an issue these
days, but it was at one time. Just keep in mind that those units that
you left with excessive condenser airflow never worked right after you
left. Hell yes they *worked*, but that isn't exactly sufficient. If you
cost them $100 dollars extra on their light bill over the life of the
unit then you didn't do them any favors by using the cheaper motor, and
you didn't do yourself any favors either because you made less on that
job than you were supposed to. It isn't your fault they had an 825RPM
motor that was out of stock or 3 weeks out.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

Your words sound good but to a 90 year old fellow and a 30+ year old
system and he said just doctor it up and when i go I can let some else
worry about it.


In other words, you raped him. No damn wonder the rest of the techs have a
hard time with some people...someone like you was there and took the guys
money and didnt do him ANY favors.


Now the Uping the horse power and leaving that big ass lennox 24 inch
with 45 degree pitch blade on it was really a no no but only for they
are going to change the system out soon like in a month or two.

You damn liar.
IF and I mean IF thats the case, you have a couple of options.
Put him in a new system. If and thats IF hes serious, you will have your
money in less time than most commercial accounts pay.
The other option is to finance him out, and you have your money instantly,
and hes gonna pay a few extra dollars in interest, unless you are a
legitimate company that can offer 90 days same as cash, and then, hes still
going to pay for that new ssytem hes gonna get in a month or two and not pay
extra on it.




Now the blade causing a extra $100.00 on the light bill a month. Hell
here in louisiana in the 1970's we did not know what a $100.00 light
bill was or did they go that high.

English wasnt taught there either was it?


TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:
"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:
"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:
"Michael." wrote in message
oups.com...
The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The
new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I
replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up
out
of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit
freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did
not,
you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation
to
height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have
changed
the
operational characteristics of the unit, and while you can correct
it
with
the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest that either you had
an
issue
in addition to the fan motor, or, you have put a fan motor on that
is
too
high of an RPM now, and thus, created a charge issue with the unit.



this is Turtle.

the last line you wrote above here about a problem such as the op
that
the unit will freeze up with the condender fan blowing too much air.
In
40 something years in the HVAC/R business have i ever heard of
moving
too much air across a condenser coil will freeze up the evaperator
coil
if it is properly charged.

Now you need to rethink what you stated it here about a faster
condenser fan motor speed will freezer the evaperator coil up with a
properly freon charge of the system.

TURTLE


Terry, as a true, licenced, trained, and educated HVAC professional
with
a
grasp of the English that I use daily, and a grasp of how a charge
issue
can
be created and indeed, seems to be the case here, by a fan with too
high
of
a speed that has created a false ambient for the current temps, and
COULD
have been corrected without replacing the fan....well, after 40 years
(you
state you started working in HVAC at 6...wow...all those child labor
laws
your father should have been fined for) you should know what was being
stated.

Thank you again for proving to those of us that have a clue (lets see,
you
are still, after 40 years, a one man, Pinto wagon band right?) that
you
are
indeed, nothing but a sweet talking salesman, that has no idea why the
units
he installs work, but damned if they dont.

This is Turtle

You just spoke the most Hog **** that i've ever heard in my lift. Boy
Howdee do we get some Rookies of the year on this group. Here below i
will make a statement which you will be ask to reply to.


Go on Terry, try to dig out of this one, but its obvious that in this
case,
you are clueless, and I suspect in this case, its more for your desire to
attempt a discredit, instead of simply saying you dont understand what
is
being discussed.

How about you go on, since you are on a roll, and start with your male
sexual statements next...other than bull****ting someone that simply
likes
sweet talk from you about a problem you cant fully diagnose over the net,
you sweet talk em and fail to mention the little things that you would if
you were there.


This is Turtle.

I have to dig no where here. Your have to answer the question about the
increase of the air to the condenser only will cause the evaperator to
freeze up. That is Plain and simple BULL****. If you can't answer
correctly , please don't try to answer question here with BULL****.

Bull****?
First, you are not paying me to teach you. If you want to be taught, AFTER
FORTY YEARS in the trade, go back to school.

If you dont understand this simple, BASIC principle of AC operation, there
is NO WAY you have ever, in your life, charged a unit correctly, Mr Beer Can
Cold Ill pinch em off till its cooling guy.

You also have never worked on an old Trane/GE unit with two speed fans, or
knew how that worked either.


Nowe call you on some bull**** is not called flame or discrediting at
all but i want you to explan this Bull**** to me. If you say some
bull**** , be prepaired to explain it.

TURTLE

RP wrote:


George E. Cawthon wrote:

RP wrote:



George E. Cawthon wrote:

CBHVAC wrote:

"Michael." wrote in message
oups.com...

The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up
out of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!






1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did not, you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation
to height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have
changed the operational characteristics of the unit, and while you
can correct it with the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest
that either you had an issue in addition to the fan motor, or, you
have put a fan motor on that is too high of an RPM now, and thus,
created a charge issue with the unit.






Are you talking about a home unit? If so, I don't believe it. My
condenser unit couldn't blow any harder. If it doesn't blow enough,
that is obviously a problem. Besides the OP indicated the motor
only differs by having a longer shaft.

Blowing too much, if possible, would have less effect than the
normal changes in outside temperature. How in the hell could any hp
change or motor speed adversely affect the condenser as long as it
is keeping the coils cooled? Unless, of course, some one has some
cobbled up design that involves electronic control of the blower
motor that is supposed to save energy.




Excessive condenser airflow will simulate a lower ambient. If ambient
is in the mid to low 70's as the OP states, then with a larger and
thus slightly faster motor the unit will *percieve* an ambient in the
mid to upper 60's, in which case a piston evap coil can easily freeze
up, especially if it was a bit undercharged to begin with. The new
motor can very well be the difference between evap freezing vs not
freezing. This can also occur even if the motor specs are identical.
How? Well let's get this out of the way too. If the old motor wasn't
running up to speed and the refrigerant charge was adjusted under
those conditions, then it will have actually been left undercharged.
The result is the same as installing a higher HP motor.

In this case the OP said that he also cleaned the condenser coil.
This could very be the only thing that caused the evap to start
freezing up.

hvacrmedic

I'm astounded. If what you say is true, then some engineer should
come forward with a new design or at least a new control system that
would put all the others out of business. Further, homeowners would
be constantly experience problems for which there was no remedy
because they would be due to environmental changes. And the units on
autos would be virtually useless.

I think you are reaching. If the charge is wrong it is wrong. Sure
it may not show up under some conditions and new changes could make it
show up, but the problem is the charge.

My home unit works in all kinds of weather and all reasonable
temperature and humidities and I have never experienced any kind of
freezing up (of course I don't run it when the temperature is 20
degrees, in fact, it never run when the ambient temperature is below
75 degrees.)

My automobile units work in more drastic conditions since my truck AC
works in any temperature at some setting and it never fails to cool.


Hey speedy, I didn't say there was a problem with the motor, did I? This
was just a description of how the unit could have gone from not freezing
up to freezing up by changing the motor and/or cleaning the condenser coil.

The only real problems are that, no.1 he's running the unit when he
should have the windows cracked. Truth be known, and this is no.2, he
probably either needs a new air filter or the evaporator coil is
plastered with years of his own filth from not changing the filter
regularly. Adding refrigerant may indeed be the only fix required, no.3,
but this isn't what you asked about numbnuts. You specifically asked how
increasing condenser airflow could lead to a freeze-up condition. If you
don't understand your own narrative then you should think about forgoing
the reading of anyone else's.

hvacrmedic



I agree with most of your statement Slick. But I
didn't really ask a question about how it could
freeze up, I indicated incredulity at your
statement about the "perceived" lower ambient
temperature. And, I pointed out that it would
really be a problem with the coolant and not the
blower.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new
one is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at
2,000 rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at 2000
rpm is still the same.



Hi,
At what rpm is the Hp rating? And torque? And the weight and shape of the
car?......
Tony

Does not matter as long as the hp is sufficient to propel the car at 70 mph.
Both cars have the same gearing so the engine turns at the same rpm. I
could add a supercharger, put in a big V8, it would still run the same rpm
with the same gearing at the same speed. Just like a fan motor.

When I took the fan motor to the shop they matched it to a motor that
was supposed to be the same RPM. I have discarded the old motor, but I
will see if I still have the info written down and I will check it to
the new one. I replaced with a 3M micro alerigin filter. Cleaning the
coils and replacing the filter did not work.

RP wrote:
TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


RP wrote:


TURTLE wrote:



Stretch wrote:



Turtle,

If the OP replaced an 825 RPM motor with a 1075 RPM motor, the
condensor air flow would go up quite a bit. Check your fan laws. This
would lower the head pressure which could also lower the suction
pressure enough to start freezing the indoor coil.


Snipe add on's

This is Turtle.

They don't have no fan laws that would speak about too much air across
the coil as small as going from a 825 rpm motor to a 1075 rpm motor. It
would move more air but it would play very little difference in the
head or the suction pressure as to what you say trouble or freeze up
the evaperator coil.

Also in my life i have changed bunches -- 825 Lennox cond. fan motors
over to 1075 and just change the blade or increase the h.P. and leave
the blade.

So you've hacked up a bunch of peoples systems. That's nice. Did you at
least consult the fan laws when you only increased HP and left the
blade? You might be surprised at how much higher in HP you have to go to
keep running amps down to the nameplate rating of the new motor.



This is Turtle.

Earth to Richard , been there and done that. I use to have a chart for
the units you wanted to convert. yes Pecker Wood , I went to Lennox and
got the required cu. ft. per minute for all their stuff and keep a
blade for each unit as to 2 and 5 ton condenser blades. There is 6
blades that would cover most any of the brands and just keep them on
the truck. In the last 5 or 10 years the number of blade have changed
so much that you have to get the right blade for the job. there was
very few Trane around and lennox was the only 825 rpm motors needing to
change out this away. Then when everybody stated the 850 rpm motors I
stopped doing that. In my area a Lennox Wholesale cost of a 850 rpm
motor [1960's & 70's ] was more than What i got for the whole job if it
was a 1075 rpm motor. After the Lennox Union Strike we had to go to
other companys to sell equipment and Lennox cut our dealer ship because
they would not ship equipment for 8 months and expected use to shut
down our business till the strick was over. We went back to Rheem /
Ruud/ dunn & Bush / singer / others which got them to killing us for
parts because we did not wait out the strick and stay loyle to Lennox.

In 1970 Lennox wanted $141.00 wholesale for 1/3 house power 850 rpm
condenser fan motor We changed out 1076 condenser fan motor for $125.00
total cost.

Ok, you've covered your ass on one of the two statements that you made.
How about the other statement that you left the old blade and just
upsized the motor when going from 825 to 1075RPM? Sure you can adjust
the charge, but like I said, the system is now mismatched, not to
mention the fact that the OEM blade wasn't necessarily designed to
withstand that kind of added stress. I'll tell you now that I've
converted a couple of 825s to 1075, but I didn't leave the original
blade on them. You're correct about the pricing, not an issue these
days, but it was at one time. Just keep in mind that those units that
you left with excessive condenser airflow never worked right after you
left. Hell yes they *worked*, but that isn't exactly sufficient. If you
cost them $100 dollars extra on their light bill over the life of the
unit then you didn't do them any favors by using the cheaper motor, and
you didn't do yourself any favors either because you made less on that
job than you were supposed to. It isn't your fault they had an 825RPM
motor that was out of stock or 3 weeks out.

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

Your words sound good but to a 90 year old fellow and a 30+ year old
system and he said just doctor it up and when i go I can let some else
worry about it.

Now the Uping the horse power and leaving that big ass lennox 24 inch
with 45 degree pitch blade on it was really a no no but only for they
are going to change the system out soon like in a month or two.

Now the blade causing a extra $100.00 on the light bill a month. Hell
here in louisiana in the 1970's we did not know what a $100.00 light
bill was or did they go that high.

TURTLE


I said "over the life of the unit". More like I was giving you the
benefit of the doubt for them breaking even over 15 years, but in
reality their extra expense on electricity would add up to more than 100
dollars over 15 years. A bunch more.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

Your words tell the very most truth but the average customer in this
area would do this. I would explain that they could save about
$1,000.00 over the life of the furnace if you just add this $6.00 part
to it. The Customers having been bull****ted so much that the answer to
this question would be " no put the regular part on it". the public has
been told so many lies and bull****ted so many time that they don't
believe anything a service man says now a days.

If you want a example of the public being bull****ted . go to your TV
and turn it on and watch the commercials and see how much bull**** your
handed out in advertisements. You are look " up on " as just one of
these commercials and playing a game on them.

Also here in Louisiana they are just now getting a $200.00 electric
bill and is having sticker shock over it.

TURTLE

RP wrote:
TURTLE wrote:

CBHVAC wrote:

"TURTLE" wrote in message
groups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:

"TURTLE" wrote in message
legroups.com...

CBHVAC wrote:

"Michael." wrote in message
oglegroups.com...

The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The
new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I
replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up out
of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did
not,
you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation to
height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have changed
the
operational characteristics of the unit, and while you can correct it
with
the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest that either you had an
issue
in addition to the fan motor, or, you have put a fan motor on that is
too
high of an RPM now, and thus, created a charge issue with the unit.



this is Turtle.

the last line you wrote above here about a problem such as the op that
the unit will freeze up with the condender fan blowing too much air. In
40 something years in the HVAC/R business have i ever heard of moving
too much air across a condenser coil will freeze up the evaperator coil
if it is properly charged.

Now you need to rethink what you stated it here about a faster
condenser fan motor speed will freezer the evaperator coil up with a
properly freon charge of the system.

TURTLE


Terry, as a true, licenced, trained, and educated HVAC professional with
a
grasp of the English that I use daily, and a grasp of how a charge issue
can
be created and indeed, seems to be the case here, by a fan with too high
of
a speed that has created a false ambient for the current temps, and COULD
have been corrected without replacing the fan....well, after 40 years
(you
state you started working in HVAC at 6...wow...all those child labor laws
your father should have been fined for) you should know what was being
stated.

Thank you again for proving to those of us that have a clue (lets see,
you
are still, after 40 years, a one man, Pinto wagon band right?) that you
are
indeed, nothing but a sweet talking salesman, that has no idea why the
units
he installs work, but damned if they dont.

This is Turtle

You just spoke the most Hog **** that i've ever heard in my lift. Boy
Howdee do we get some Rookies of the year on this group. Here below i
will make a statement which you will be ask to reply to.


Go on Terry, try to dig out of this one, but its obvious that in this case,
you are clueless, and I suspect in this case, its more for your desire to
attempt a discredit, instead of simply saying you dont understand what is
being discussed.

How about you go on, since you are on a roll, and start with your male
sexual statements next...other than bull****ting someone that simply likes
sweet talk from you about a problem you cant fully diagnose over the net,
you sweet talk em and fail to mention the little things that you would if
you were there.



This is Turtle.

I have to dig no where here. Your have to answer the question about the
increase of the air to the condenser only will cause the evaperator to
freeze up. That is Plain and simple BULL****. If you can't answer
correctly , please don't try to answer question here with BULL****.

Nowe call you on some bull**** is not called flame or discrediting at
all but i want you to explan this Bull**** to me. If you say some
bull**** , be prepaired to explain it.

Damn Turtle. Let's try this:
The evaporator coil is plugged and the U-bends on the coil are already
frosting over, but there is just enough air over the evaporator coil's
fins to keep the frost knocked off of them. Then you go out and put a
higher RPM motor on the condenser, increasing the condenser airflow. Now
the suction pressure is going to drop 3 or 4 pounds from what it was.
The coil then begins to frost over because it was right at freezing
before you changed the motor. The evaporator was *marginally* close to
freezing already, just 32.1 degrees when you got there, or .1 deg above
freezing. So it only has to drop .1deg in order to freeze. But 3 or 4
pounds lower suction means that the coil temp has dropped about 3 or 4
deg, so it's now way below freezing.

So you want to add refrigerant to fix it, wrong already, but let's go
ahead and add some refrigerant. Now the subcool is way too high, the
unit is running less efficiently than before, and because the liquid is
cooler (that's what higher subcool means) as it goes into the evaporator
the suction pressure will never come back up as high as it was before
you changed the motor out. It's now maybe 1 or 2 pounds lower than it
was before, and the coil is 1 or 2 degree colder, or still below
freezing. Ice still forms even when you add refrigerant, unless of
course you overcharge the system, in which case the compressor is going
to go out prematurely, because it'll slug liquid when it gets hotter
outside.

A system is tuned so that all of its parts work together efficiently and
correctly. If you change the balance that was engineered in then you
have hacked up the system and aren't saving the customer a single red
penny. In fact you probably cost them more in the long run than if you
had done it right the first time. If you know what you're doing then you
can actually improve upon the original engineering but you don't seem to
know enough about the system to even keep it at its original efficiency.

hvacrmedic

this is Turtle.

you have listed causes of the problem but what I'm speaking about is
ONE STATEMENT THAT CB MADE FOR WHICH WAS NOT TRUE AT ALL. i will slow
it down here for you to see it. George up above seen it too but it has
slipped by you.

If you have a perfectly tuned & matching hvac system and then you can
speed up the condenser fan motor to a point to freeze up the evaperator
coil. It will never happen without something else causing the freezing
up of the coil.

Now start poking hole in these words and don't start adding anyother
statements with it. Just read the statement and speak about it with
nothing else or cause added to it.

TURTLE

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new
one is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at
2,000 rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at 2000
rpm is still the same.



Hi,
At what rpm is the Hp rating? And torque? And the weight and shape of the
car?......
Tony

Does not matter as long as the hp is sufficient to propel the car at 70 mph.
Both cars have the same gearing so the engine turns at the same rpm. I
could add a supercharger, put in a big V8, it would still run the same rpm
with the same gearing at the same speed. Just like a fan motor.

This is Turtle.

they are missing what your saying because of cause of the problem and
not what your statement was. i think we are tring to bull**** somebody
here but not sure.

TURTLE

George E. Cawthon wrote:
RP wrote:


George E. Cawthon wrote:

RP wrote:



George E. Cawthon wrote:

CBHVAC wrote:

"Michael." wrote in message
oups.com...

The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up
out of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!






1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did not, you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation
to height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have
changed the operational characteristics of the unit, and while you
can correct it with the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest
that either you had an issue in addition to the fan motor, or, you
have put a fan motor on that is too high of an RPM now, and thus,
created a charge issue with the unit.






Are you talking about a home unit? If so, I don't believe it. My
condenser unit couldn't blow any harder. If it doesn't blow enough,
that is obviously a problem. Besides the OP indicated the motor
only differs by having a longer shaft.

Blowing too much, if possible, would have less effect than the
normal changes in outside temperature. How in the hell could any hp
change or motor speed adversely affect the condenser as long as it
is keeping the coils cooled? Unless, of course, some one has some
cobbled up design that involves electronic control of the blower
motor that is supposed to save energy.




Excessive condenser airflow will simulate a lower ambient. If ambient
is in the mid to low 70's as the OP states, then with a larger and
thus slightly faster motor the unit will *percieve* an ambient in the
mid to upper 60's, in which case a piston evap coil can easily freeze
up, especially if it was a bit undercharged to begin with. The new
motor can very well be the difference between evap freezing vs not
freezing. This can also occur even if the motor specs are identical.
How? Well let's get this out of the way too. If the old motor wasn't
running up to speed and the refrigerant charge was adjusted under
those conditions, then it will have actually been left undercharged.
The result is the same as installing a higher HP motor.

In this case the OP said that he also cleaned the condenser coil.
This could very be the only thing that caused the evap to start
freezing up.

hvacrmedic

I'm astounded. If what you say is true, then some engineer should
come forward with a new design or at least a new control system that
would put all the others out of business. Further, homeowners would
be constantly experience problems for which there was no remedy
because they would be due to environmental changes. And the units on
autos would be virtually useless.

I think you are reaching. If the charge is wrong it is wrong. Sure
it may not show up under some conditions and new changes could make it
show up, but the problem is the charge.

My home unit works in all kinds of weather and all reasonable
temperature and humidities and I have never experienced any kind of
freezing up (of course I don't run it when the temperature is 20
degrees, in fact, it never run when the ambient temperature is below
75 degrees.)

My automobile units work in more drastic conditions since my truck AC
works in any temperature at some setting and it never fails to cool.


Hey speedy, I didn't say there was a problem with the motor, did I? This
was just a description of how the unit could have gone from not freezing
up to freezing up by changing the motor and/or cleaning the condenser coil.

The only real problems are that, no.1 he's running the unit when he
should have the windows cracked. Truth be known, and this is no.2, he
probably either needs a new air filter or the evaporator coil is
plastered with years of his own filth from not changing the filter
regularly. Adding refrigerant may indeed be the only fix required, no.3,
but this isn't what you asked about numbnuts. You specifically asked how
increasing condenser airflow could lead to a freeze-up condition. If you
don't understand your own narrative then you should think about forgoing
the reading of anyone else's.

hvacrmedic



I agree with most of your statement Slick. But I
didn't really ask a question about how it could
freeze up, I indicated incredulity at your
statement about the "perceived" lower ambient
temperature. And, I pointed out that it would
really be a problem with the coolant and not the
blower.

This is Turtle

George you will never be answered by anybody about your statements
above because it is a cover up of someone bull****ting and got cought
doing so. CB said it and Richard covering it up. this is the end of it
for being caught bull****ting you have to forget about it and move on.

TURTLE

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new
one is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at
2,000 rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at 2000
rpm is still the same.




Hi,
At what rpm is the Hp rating? And torque? And the weight and shape of the
car?......
Tony


Does not matter as long as the hp is sufficient to propel the car at 70 mph.
Both cars have the same gearing so the engine turns at the same rpm. I
could add a supercharger, put in a big V8, it would still run the same rpm
with the same gearing at the same speed. Just like a fan motor.

There are no locking torque converters on electric motors. They are free
to slip, meaning that the rotating field outpaces the rotor. The only
way to get the theoretical 1200 RPM, which is the RPM of the rotating
field, is to remove all friction and load from the rotor. 1075 is the
RPM at which the inherently 1200RPM motor is slowed down by the attached
load, which in turn ideally matches the HP rating of the motor. This is
why they call it a 1075 RPM motor rather than a 1200RPM motor, though it
actually is 1200 RPM under no load conditions.

Adding additional load beyond what it was designed for will reduce the
speed still further, but this will overload the motor, causing it to
output more HP than it was designed for. At some low RPM caused by
excessive drag, the HP curve will begin to drop again and this is called
the stall speed for the motor. On multi-tap blower motors the various
speed taps are actually just various HP configurations wrt the common
lead. IOW, the lowest speed is caused by overloading the motor at the
low HP obtained by using the low speed tap. This causes excessive
slippage between the field and the rotor and thus we get a lower speed
out of the motor. Multi-tap motors are engineered to accommodate the
overloaded condition on its lower speeds without burning.

IOW, over-sizing a motor will cause the actual RPM to run higher than
the nameplate rating, approaching 1200 RPM as the HP/LOAD ratio
approaches infinity. Under-sizing will cause the actual RPM to run lower
than the nameplate rating, approaching stall (or zero) speed as the
HP/LOAD ratio approaches stall value.

hvacrmedic

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


CBHVAC wrote:


"TURTLE" wrote in message
legroups.com...


CBHVAC wrote:


"TURTLE" wrote in message
oglegroups.com...


CBHVAC wrote:


"Michael." wrote in message
news:1135098728.120592.304690@g47g2000cwa. googlegroups.com...


The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The
new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I
replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up out
of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did
not,
you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation to
height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have changed
the
operational characteristics of the unit, and while you can correct it
with
the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest that either you had an
issue
in addition to the fan motor, or, you have put a fan motor on that is
too
high of an RPM now, and thus, created a charge issue with the unit.



this is Turtle.

the last line you wrote above here about a problem such as the op that
the unit will freeze up with the condender fan blowing too much air. In
40 something years in the HVAC/R business have i ever heard of moving
too much air across a condenser coil will freeze up the evaperator coil
if it is properly charged.

Now you need to rethink what you stated it here about a faster
condenser fan motor speed will freezer the evaperator coil up with a
properly freon charge of the system.

TURTLE


Terry, as a true, licenced, trained, and educated HVAC professional with
a
grasp of the English that I use daily, and a grasp of how a charge issue
can
be created and indeed, seems to be the case here, by a fan with too high
of
a speed that has created a false ambient for the current temps, and COULD
have been corrected without replacing the fan....well, after 40 years
(you
state you started working in HVAC at 6...wow...all those child labor laws
your father should have been fined for) you should know what was being
stated.

Thank you again for proving to those of us that have a clue (lets see,
you
are still, after 40 years, a one man, Pinto wagon band right?) that you
are
indeed, nothing but a sweet talking salesman, that has no idea why the
units
he installs work, but damned if they dont.

This is Turtle

You just spoke the most Hog **** that i've ever heard in my lift. Boy
Howdee do we get some Rookies of the year on this group. Here below i
will make a statement which you will be ask to reply to.


Go on Terry, try to dig out of this one, but its obvious that in this case,
you are clueless, and I suspect in this case, its more for your desire to
attempt a discredit, instead of simply saying you dont understand what is
being discussed.

How about you go on, since you are on a roll, and start with your male
sexual statements next...other than bull****ting someone that simply likes
sweet talk from you about a problem you cant fully diagnose over the net,
you sweet talk em and fail to mention the little things that you would if
you were there.



This is Turtle.

I have to dig no where here. Your have to answer the question about the
increase of the air to the condenser only will cause the evaperator to
freeze up. That is Plain and simple BULL****. If you can't answer
correctly , please don't try to answer question here with BULL****.

Nowe call you on some bull**** is not called flame or discrediting at
all but i want you to explan this Bull**** to me. If you say some
bull**** , be prepaired to explain it.

Damn Turtle. Let's try this:
The evaporator coil is plugged and the U-bends on the coil are already
frosting over, but there is just enough air over the evaporator coil's
fins to keep the frost knocked off of them. Then you go out and put a
higher RPM motor on the condenser, increasing the condenser airflow. Now
the suction pressure is going to drop 3 or 4 pounds from what it was.
The coil then begins to frost over because it was right at freezing
before you changed the motor. The evaporator was *marginally* close to
freezing already, just 32.1 degrees when you got there, or .1 deg above
freezing. So it only has to drop .1deg in order to freeze. But 3 or 4
pounds lower suction means that the coil temp has dropped about 3 or 4
deg, so it's now way below freezing.

So you want to add refrigerant to fix it, wrong already, but let's go
ahead and add some refrigerant. Now the subcool is way too high, the
unit is running less efficiently than before, and because the liquid is
cooler (that's what higher subcool means) as it goes into the evaporator
the suction pressure will never come back up as high as it was before
you changed the motor out. It's now maybe 1 or 2 pounds lower than it
was before, and the coil is 1 or 2 degree colder, or still below
freezing. Ice still forms even when you add refrigerant, unless of
course you overcharge the system, in which case the compressor is going
to go out prematurely, because it'll slug liquid when it gets hotter
outside.

A system is tuned so that all of its parts work together efficiently and
correctly. If you change the balance that was engineered in then you
have hacked up the system and aren't saving the customer a single red
penny. In fact you probably cost them more in the long run than if you
had done it right the first time. If you know what you're doing then you
can actually improve upon the original engineering but you don't seem to
know enough about the system to even keep it at its original efficiency.

hvacrmedic


this is Turtle.

you have listed causes of the problem but what I'm speaking about is
ONE STATEMENT THAT CB MADE FOR WHICH WAS NOT TRUE AT ALL. i will slow
it down here for you to see it. George up above seen it too but it has
slipped by you.

If you have a perfectly tuned & matching hvac system and then you can
speed up the condenser fan motor to a point to freeze up the evaperator
coil. It will never happen without something else causing the freezing
up of the coil.

Now start poking hole in these words and don't start adding anyother
statements with it. Just read the statement and speak about it with
nothing else or cause added to it.

You aren't going to ever understand.

hvacrmedic

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

TURTLE wrote:


CBHVAC wrote:


"TURTLE" wrote in message
legroups.com...


CBHVAC wrote:


"TURTLE" wrote in message
oglegroups.com...


CBHVAC wrote:


"Michael." wrote in message
news:1135098728.120592.304690@g47g2000cwa. googlegroups.com...


The fan motor on my outside unit died last week. I took the fan
motor
to a local appliance parts store and they gave me a new one. The
new
one had a longer shaft but they said that did not matter. I
replaced
the fan motor and it seems to work fine. The air is blowing up out
of
the unit. However, when I run the air now the interior unit freezes
up.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

1- Did you replace the motor with the EXACT same HP and RPM? If you
did
not,
you have a problem.
2-did you put the fan back EXACTLY where it was located in relation to
height? if not, you have a problem.

If you have too much airflow over the condensor now, you have changed
the
operational characteristics of the unit, and while you can correct it
with
the proper tools and knowhow, I would suggest that either you had an
issue
in addition to the fan motor, or, you have put a fan motor on that is
too
high of an RPM now, and thus, created a charge issue with the unit.



this is Turtle.

the last line you wrote above here about a problem such as the op that
the unit will freeze up with the condender fan blowing too much air. In
40 something years in the HVAC/R business have i ever heard of moving
too much air across a condenser coil will freeze up the evaperator coil
if it is properly charged.

Now you need to rethink what you stated it here about a faster
condenser fan motor speed will freezer the evaperator coil up with a
properly freon charge of the system.

TURTLE


Terry, as a true, licenced, trained, and educated HVAC professional with
a
grasp of the English that I use daily, and a grasp of how a charge issue
can
be created and indeed, seems to be the case here, by a fan with too high
of
a speed that has created a false ambient for the current temps, and COULD
have been corrected without replacing the fan....well, after 40 years
(you
state you started working in HVAC at 6...wow...all those child labor laws
your father should have been fined for) you should know what was being
stated.

Thank you again for proving to those of us that have a clue (lets see,
you
are still, after 40 years, a one man, Pinto wagon band right?) that you
are
indeed, nothing but a sweet talking salesman, that has no idea why the
units
he installs work, but damned if they dont.

This is Turtle

You just spoke the most Hog **** that i've ever heard in my lift. Boy
Howdee do we get some Rookies of the year on this group. Here below i
will make a statement which you will be ask to reply to.


Go on Terry, try to dig out of this one, but its obvious that in this case,
you are clueless, and I suspect in this case, its more for your desire to
attempt a discredit, instead of simply saying you dont understand what is
being discussed.

How about you go on, since you are on a roll, and start with your male
sexual statements next...other than bull****ting someone that simply likes
sweet talk from you about a problem you cant fully diagnose over the net,
you sweet talk em and fail to mention the little things that you would if
you were there.



This is Turtle.

I have to dig no where here. Your have to answer the question about the
increase of the air to the condenser only will cause the evaperator to
freeze up. That is Plain and simple BULL****. If you can't answer
correctly , please don't try to answer question here with BULL****.

Nowe call you on some bull**** is not called flame or discrediting at
all but i want you to explan this Bull**** to me. If you say some
bull**** , be prepaired to explain it.

Damn Turtle. Let's try this:
The evaporator coil is plugged and the U-bends on the coil are already
frosting over, but there is just enough air over the evaporator coil's
fins to keep the frost knocked off of them. Then you go out and put a
higher RPM motor on the condenser, increasing the condenser airflow. Now
the suction pressure is going to drop 3 or 4 pounds from what it was.
The coil then begins to frost over because it was right at freezing
before you changed the motor. The evaporator was *marginally* close to
freezing already, just 32.1 degrees when you got there, or .1 deg above
freezing. So it only has to drop .1deg in order to freeze. But 3 or 4
pounds lower suction means that the coil temp has dropped about 3 or 4
deg, so it's now way below freezing.

So you want to add refrigerant to fix it, wrong already, but let's go
ahead and add some refrigerant. Now the subcool is way too high, the
unit is running less efficiently than before, and because the liquid is
cooler (that's what higher subcool means) as it goes into the evaporator
the suction pressure will never come back up as high as it was before
you changed the motor out. It's now maybe 1 or 2 pounds lower than it
was before, and the coil is 1 or 2 degree colder, or still below
freezing. Ice still forms even when you add refrigerant, unless of
course you overcharge the system, in which case the compressor is going
to go out prematurely, because it'll slug liquid when it gets hotter
outside.

A system is tuned so that all of its parts work together efficiently and
correctly. If you change the balance that was engineered in then you
have hacked up the system and aren't saving the customer a single red
penny. In fact you probably cost them more in the long run than if you
had done it right the first time. If you know what you're doing then you
can actually improve upon the original engineering but you don't seem to
know enough about the system to even keep it at its original efficiency.

hvacrmedic


this is Turtle.

you have listed causes of the problem but what I'm speaking about is
ONE STATEMENT THAT CB MADE FOR WHICH WAS NOT TRUE AT ALL. i will slow
it down here for you to see it. George up above seen it too but it has
slipped by you.

If you have a perfectly tuned & matching hvac system and then you can
speed up the condenser fan motor to a point to freeze up the evaperator
coil. It will never happen without something else causing the freezing
up of the coil.

When you increase the condenser airflow the system is no longer
perfectly tuned or matched. There is no other cause than that you put
the wrong ****ing motor on it. The charge is good, by definition of
"perfectly tuned and matched". If you add refrigerant to fix it then
you've tried to make two wrongs into one right. It'll work, but it won't
ever be perfectly tuned again, period, unless you re-engineer the
remainder of the system. When you get done with all of that then your
wrong motor will now be the right motor, but now it's a completely
different system from what you started with. Just put the right ****ing
motor on it and shut the hell up.

The OP probably has a dirty evaporator coil and/or low refrigerant
charge. Cleaning the condenser coil dropped the suction pressure even
lower than its already low value, causing the coil temp to drop and
causing the coil to freeze. If it had been 90deg outside the coil
wouldn't have frozen, but it was in the low 70's, so it did.

You totally misread what CB said, and I don't care whether you can
digest that or not, but I'll stop to say that this sort of behavior is
exactly why people got tired of your hack crap posts in alt.hvac. You
don't want to learn a ****ing thing, you know very little about your own
occupation of 40 years, and while you think you have all the answers you
have virtually none at all. I'm sorry, but I didn't raise you, so it
isn't my fault. I'm done with trying to educate you, so from now on I'll
probably just tell people to run as far as they can from your advice on
these groups. If you happen to get one right, then I'll leave that one
alone.

hvacrmedic



Now start poking hole in these words and don't start adding anyother
statements with it. Just read the statement and speak about it with
nothing else or cause added to it.

TURTLE

Yes, please call a HVAC company.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Michael." wrote in message
ups.com...
It is 73 degrees out right now (Miami winter...). I got some cleaner
for the outside coil because it looked really dirty. I also changed
the inside filter. I took the fan motor to the store and they replaced
with the "correct" fan motor. The existing one had 3 wires and the new
one had 4 wires. They sold me a small silver box to hook up the brown
wires to. If this does not work, I think I will call someone who knows
what they are doing...

Thanks to all for your help!!!

Michael,
The 3M filter is one of the restrictive types. Replace it with a cheap
fiberglass filter. The pressure drop across the 3M filter is 2.5 times
that of the cheap fiberglass filter. Typically it will reduce air flow
by 10 to 20%, based on testing with an air flow hood.

If that does not help, you need to call a service company to check your
system.

Stretch

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

I have two cars with the same transmission and differential. The new
one is 205 hp, the old one is 170 hp, but at 70 mph, they both turn at
2,000 rpm. Accelleration and top speed may differ, but the speed at
2000 rpm is still the same.



Hi,
At what rpm is the Hp rating? And torque? And the weight and shape of the
car?......
Tony

Does not matter as long as the hp is sufficient to propel the car at 70
mph. Both cars have the same gearing so the engine turns at the same rpm.
I could add a supercharger, put in a big V8, it would still run the same
rpm with the same gearing at the same speed. Just like a fan motor.


Ummmm..no.

With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.

"CBHVAC" wrote in message
With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.

But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is running
at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running at 1000
rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP does not make
it turn faster.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"CBHVAC" wrote in message

With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is running
at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running at 1000
rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP does not make
it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then
you should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic

"RP" wrote in message


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic

I'm always looking to learn.

"RP" wrote in message
et...


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"CBHVAC" wrote in message

With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all
the time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic


Man..Ed is a pretty good guy..and hes right, hes willing to learn.
Hell, if you had told me that 12 years ago, i would have laughed at
you...then, I got to learn all about swamp coolers and what 1/3 HP more or
less can do....

CBHVAC wrote:

"RP" wrote in message
et...


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"CBHVAC" wrote in message


With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all
the time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic



Man..Ed is a pretty good guy..and hes right, hes willing to learn.
Hell, if you had told me that 12 years ago, i would have laughed at
you...then, I got to learn all about swamp coolers and what 1/3 HP more or
less can do....

I'll agree with you about Ed, but his replies in this thread seem to be
a bit uncharacteristic of him. I'm only suggesting that if he doesn't
trust what I said, then he might want to hit Google up about it

hvacrmedic

RP wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"CBHVAC" wrote in message

With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is running
at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running at 1000
rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP does not make
it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then
you should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

I always want someone to tell me something that i did not know but here
you are mistaken as to right or wrong.

Go back and read what Ed wrote here and tell or explain to me what is
false about what he wrote and not say i have all these book to let you
read to learn something. You or CB can't punch any holes in what he
said at all and as it seem tring to dodge the question as to answer his
statement as what is wrong with it.

Richard , have you been drinking something ?

TURTLE

This is Turtle.

Damn your good CB !

Now explain what is wrong with Ed's post besides asking you for a
straight answer.

TURTLE

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"RP" wrote in message


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic


I'm always looking to learn.

Start he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

An excerpt:

"[...]Actual RPM for an induction motor will be less than this
calculated synchronous speed by an amount known as slip that increases
with the torque produced. With no load the speed will be very close to
synchronous. When loaded, standard motors have between 2-3 percent slip,
special motors may have up to 7 percent slip, and a class of motors
known as torque motors are rated to operate at 100 percent slip (0
RPM/full stall).

The slip of the AC motor is calculated by:

S = (Ns - Nr) / Ns

where

Nr = Rotational speed, in revolutions per minute.
S = Slip, in percent.

As an example, a typical four-pole motor running on 60 Hz might have a
nameplate rating of 1725 RPM at full load, while its calculated speed is
1800."

_______________________


If you didn't believe me, then maybe you can believe the above. Happy
reading! It really is an excellent article, I recommend it to anyone who
deals with motors on a regular basis. Also good reading for those who
only want to learn about them. Now pardon me while I take time to read
the rest of it

hvacrmedic

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"CBHVAC" wrote in message


With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is running
at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running at 1000
rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP does not make
it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then
you should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

I always want someone to tell me something that i did not know but here
you are mistaken as to right or wrong.

Go back and read what Ed wrote here and tell or explain to me what is
false about what he wrote and not say i have all these book to let you
read to learn something. You or CB can't punch any holes in what he
said at all and as it seem tring to dodge the question as to answer his
statement as what is wrong with it.

Richard , have you been drinking something ?

Congrats Turtle, your at the end of your rope.

hvacrmedic

RP wrote:
CBHVAC wrote:

"RP" wrote in message
et...


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"CBHVAC" wrote in message


With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all
the time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic



Man..Ed is a pretty good guy..and hes right, hes willing to learn.
Hell, if you had told me that 12 years ago, i would have laughed at
you...then, I got to learn all about swamp coolers and what 1/3 HP more or
less can do....

I'll agree with you about Ed, but his replies in this thread seem to be
a bit uncharacteristic of him. I'm only suggesting that if he doesn't
trust what I said, then he might want to hit Google up about it

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

Yes i can see where I'm not the suck up type and would not ask you
question that any normal suck up would ask , but i see you and CB are
dodging the bullet on answering Ed's Question for if you do you will be
covering up a bull****ting line that got out of hand. So you two will
take the 5 th on this one for if you answer , you will step off in it.

Now i'm going to ask you the querstion of this : Richard , what is
wrong with ed's post above here and explain to me how or what is wrong
with it and not just go get some books and find out. If you knew you
could explain it in 1 or 2 line and it's all over. if you don't say
anything i will take it as just running from a bull**** that got out of
line. it hurts to cut and run don't it !

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is Turtle.

Damn your good CB !

Now explain what is wrong with Ed's post besides asking you for a
straight answer.

TURTLE

Learn to read and you will find out I did.

Tell another lie Terry..we got ya in a couple now.

"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...

RP wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"CBHVAC" wrote in message

With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing
machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case
we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all
the
time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running
at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running at
1000
rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP does not
make
it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then
you should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

I always want someone to tell me something that i did not know but here
you are mistaken as to right or wrong.

Go back and read what Ed wrote here and tell or explain to me what is
false about what he wrote and not say i have all these book to let you
read to learn something. You or CB can't punch any holes in what he
said at all and as it seem tring to dodge the question as to answer his
statement as what is wrong with it.

Richard , have you been drinking something ?

TURTLE


Actually, hackboi, you ahve explained this one before....funny how the right
answers seem to leave you when you are on a trolling spree.

TURTLE wrote:

RP wrote:

CBHVAC wrote:


"RP" wrote in message
news:BdGdnWDfboycaDfenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@centuryte l.net...


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"CBHVAC" wrote in message



With proper gearing, you can prob get a car to 70 with a washing machine
motor....but thats not the point.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that an electric motor, in the case we
are talking about, runs at, and Im using your example here, at WOT all
the time, limited in final RPM by blade pitch and load.
Your car example, has a variable speed control...your foot.


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted running
at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is has more HP
does not make it turn faster.

Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a few
hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling then you
should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic



Man..Ed is a pretty good guy..and hes right, hes willing to learn.
Hell, if you had told me that 12 years ago, i would have laughed at
you...then, I got to learn all about swamp coolers and what 1/3 HP more or
less can do....

I'll agree with you about Ed, but his replies in this thread seem to be
a bit uncharacteristic of him. I'm only suggesting that if he doesn't
trust what I said, then he might want to hit Google up about it

hvacrmedic


This is Turtle.

Yes i can see where I'm not the suck up type and would not ask you
question that any normal suck up would ask , but i see you and CB are
dodging the bullet on answering Ed's Question for if you do you will be
covering up a bull****ting line that got out of hand. So you two will
take the 5 th on this one for if you answer , you will step off in it.

Now i'm going to ask you the querstion of this : Richard , what is
wrong with ed's post above here and explain to me how or what is wrong
with it and not just go get some books and find out. If you knew you
could explain it in 1 or 2 line and it's all over. if you don't say
anything i will take it as just running from a bull**** that got out of
line. it hurts to cut and run don't it !

I've answered it three times now. Hell I had to answer the last one 12
****ing times and you still didn't get it. Are you kin to Marcell
Ledbetter? Hooooeey!

hvacrmedic

This is Turtle.

i know what your hitting at here and you have pushed your motor theory
too far to accept here.

If you have a 1 h.p. motor 1075 rpm, running at 1075 rpm on a 1 horse
load. Then you take a 2 horse 1075 rpm motor and replace the one horse
motor with the 2 h.p. motor 1075 rpm . the 2 h.p. motor will pull the
load well at maybe 1075 to 1085 , but no where near 1200 rpm. now leave
power factors out of it here.

Now you say a 1 hp motor 1075 rpm job when replaced with a 2 horse
motor 1075 rpm , the motor will turn at maybe 1,200 rpm or better.

Now you may have got your info from Nick Pines but in the real world
the single speed condenser motor 1075 1/3 hp. will turn at 1075 at 1/3
hp load. if you increase the horse power two times will not increase
the speed any great amount to speak of or about maybe 10 rpm's at best
because of a 1/3 hp load and a 2/3 hp motor pulling it.

Now you say a 4 speed indoor blower will spend at 1,200 rpms if on high
and on low and other speeds it will run slower because of slippage of
the motor and make it turn at say 800 rpms.

If this is true and lower speed and all other speeds turn at 1200 rpm
always if unloaded. Why do they have 4 wires on it and just have 2 and
just let it slip for the other lower speeds.

Probley what your tring to use for a example is the new multi-horse
power & speed motors. With these they may have this theory but regular
motor don't follow your thinking.

I know a fellow at emerson and i will tomorrow to check with him and
check your NEW theory out. I've heard it before and it did not flow.

TURTLE

This is Turtle.

Please Point to it or tell me where you explain this to me ?

TURTLE

TURTLE wrote:

This is Turtle.

Please Point to it or tell me where you explain this to me ?

TURTLE


OK.

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hvacrmedic

CBHVAC wrote:
"TURTLE" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is Turtle.

Damn your good CB !

Now explain what is wrong with Ed's post besides asking you for a
straight answer.

TURTLE

Learn to read and you will find out I did.

Tell another lie Terry..we got ya in a couple now.



This is Turtle.

OH MY GOD , Tell me about what they are.

TURTLE

TURTLE wrote:

This is Turtle.

i know what your hitting at here and you have pushed your motor theory
too far to accept here.

If you have a 1 h.p. motor 1075 rpm, running at 1075 rpm on a 1 horse
load. Then you take a 2 horse 1075 rpm motor and replace the one horse
motor with the 2 h.p. motor 1075 rpm . the 2 h.p. motor will pull the
load well at maybe 1075 to 1085 , but no where near 1200 rpm. now leave
power factors out of it here.

Now you say a 1 hp motor 1075 rpm job when replaced with a 2 horse
motor 1075 rpm , the motor will turn at maybe 1,200 rpm or better.

Now you may have got your info from Nick Pines but in the real world
the single speed condenser motor 1075 1/3 hp. will turn at 1075 at 1/3
hp load. if you increase the horse power two times will not increase
the speed any great amount to speak of or about maybe 10 rpm's at best
because of a 1/3 hp load and a 2/3 hp motor pulling it.

Now you say a 4 speed indoor blower will spend at 1,200 rpms if on high
and on low and other speeds it will run slower because of slippage of
the motor and make it turn at say 800 rpms.

If this is true and lower speed and all other speeds turn at 1200 rpm
always if unloaded. Why do they have 4 wires on it and just have 2 and
just let it slip for the other lower speeds.

Probley what your tring to use for a example is the new multi-horse
power & speed motors. With these they may have this theory but regular
motor don't follow your thinking.

I know a fellow at emerson and i will tomorrow to check with him and
check your NEW theory out. I've heard it before and it did not flow.

The trip saver is just a multi-tap motor. The main difference is that
the HP of the highest speed on the trip saver can be adjusted by simply
changing capacitor mfd rating. You can do the same thing with any other
4-speed blower motor, but you would need to know what you were doing,
because the instructions won't be drawn out for you on a little piece of
paper like it is with the trip saver. I doubt that any manufacturer
would warranty a motor that had been field re-engineered, but that
doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Now as for your numbers, you should consult the motor's RPM/torque curve
before attempting to post any numbers. Keep in mind that motors aren't
all made equal. A PSC motor for instance, varies more in RPM through
changes in torque than does an induction run motor in the same
application. If you look at the rated RPM you can see the difference. A
typical PSC with 1200RPM synchronous will typically be rated at 1050 or
1075RPM at full load. An induction motor OTOH might be rated at 1100 or
1150RPM. Both have the same synchronous (no load) RPM of 1200, but they
will not run the same RPM with equal loads. The PSC will run slower.

If you double the HP of the PSC you will get much more of an increase in
RPM than you would by doubling the HP of an induction run motor. You
won't however go above synchronous (rotating field) RPM regardless of
how much you increase HP.

Don't beat yourself over the head too hard for missing this one, even
Jake missed it a year or so back over in alt.hvac. I had to post motor
curves and articles for him too, before he finally understood that I
knew what the hell I was saying all along.

hvacrmedic

RP wrote:



Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"RP" wrote in message


But a 1 hp motor capable of running a given fan blade at 1000 rpm is
running at 1000 rpm. A 2 hp motor with the same fan blade mounted
running at 1000 rpm is till running at 1000 rpm. The fact that is
has more HP does not make it turn faster.


Are you asking or telling? Cause if your asking I'm ready to post a
few hundred web pages that will explain it to you. If you're telling
then you should probably stop telling and do a little more homework.

hvacrmedic



I'm always looking to learn.


Start he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

An excerpt:

"[...]Actual RPM for an induction motor will be less than this
calculated synchronous speed by an amount known as slip that increases
with the torque produced. With no load the speed will be very close to
synchronous. When loaded, standard motors have between 2-3 percent slip,
special motors may have up to 7 percent slip, and a class of motors
known as torque motors are rated to operate at 100 percent slip (0
RPM/full stall).

The slip of the AC motor is calculated by:

S = (Ns - Nr) / Ns

where

Nr = Rotational speed, in revolutions per minute.
S = Slip, in percent.

As an example, a typical four-pole motor running on 60 Hz might have a
nameplate rating of 1725 RPM at full load, while its calculated speed is
1800."

_______________________


If you didn't believe me, then maybe you can believe the above. Happy
reading! It really is an excellent article, I recommend it to anyone who
deals with motors on a regular basis. Also good reading for those who
only want to learn about them. Now pardon me while I take time to read
the rest of it

hvacrmedic

BTW, according to the formula above, a PSC motor rated at 1050 RPM at
full load has a 12.5% slip. Assuming a nearly linear curve in the upper
region of the motor curve, doubling the HP would result in a slip of
approximately 6.25%, for a final RPM of approximately 1125. This is a
75 RPM increase. This may not seem like much, but the cfm increase due
to this much increase in RPM will be substantial. It more than likely
won't be an operational problem for the unit, but keeping the argument
in context, it could very well lead to a coil freezing up that wasn't
freezing before under the same ambient conditions, that is, when it was
already cool outside and the coil was already near the freezing point.
Is that understood, or would you like a bit more clarification. I can
talk about this **** all day long

hvacrmedic