Sorry about having to start a new string....for some reason, I can't reply
to anything this morning. Oh, well....

First off, Al. I appreciate your opinion. However, I highly doubt my 63
year old retired school teacher neighbor of 11 years would want to "pull my
leg", especially given the fact that he told me about all of this 3 or 4
years ago and I dismissed all of it as hogwash. He got his advice from a
retired Chemical Engineer friend of his who has taken up HVAC advice/studies
in old houses as a hobby. In fact, he showed me the study he did (the
retired engineer) that showed where he tracked the BTU's he was getting from
Citizen's Gas here in Indy (if he had to, how he rigged it up to monitor it
I have no idea). Anyway, basically he nailed Citizen's with the Utility
Board of Indiana for not supplying the same or adequate BTU's when the temps
got below 10 degrees. Seems they were cutting in some Coke gas (or
something akin, I'm not sure I remember) , which is not as good as pure Ng.
That is all fine and dandy, but they weren't telling anyone about it and
then they turned around and charged people as if they'd supplied only pure
Ng, when the impure supply was causing people to use more gas to generate
the same BTU's. No, that all doesn't mean squat. However, I think they're
trustworthy. I have an excellent BS meter and it doesn't tick when they're
talking. I highly doubt a 75 year old retiree (the ChemE) would get his
kicks by "getting over" on a 42 year old stranger, and I've seen his house
firsthand. Also, regarding the bill/check, Citizen's policy is any amount
overbilled over the amount of $100 is refunded in a check to the client.

Now on to some followup.....

Thanks, HeatMan, for your time on this...

Some other points/follow-ups:

1.) There is already visqueen laid down on the crawl space floor. It's not
sealed to the walls, but it comes to within at least 6 inches of the walls.
Is that good enough re the moisture/mold? Since the visqueen is already
down, and assuming I lay in the insulation on the walls and out on the floor
of the crawl space 2 ft out from the wall, do I still need "thermostatic
vents"? How much are they approximately? If the insulation is down, and
the visqueen is also, does the natural heat from the earth (55 degrees, no?)
still heat up the air in the crawl space in the winter and cool it down in
summer? I assume it work for us either way, no?

2.) Regarding the hole in the floor. Hopefully this helps with #3 below.
What I'm talking about is, in a location somewhere near the middle of the
house, cutting in a 9"x14" hole in the floor that would expose the crawl
space (obviously I'd put some sort of grate/grill on it). Then, to promote
circulation, running the bath fan 24/7, creating a flow from the outside
into the crawl space through the one unplugged crawl space vent, to the hole
cut in the floor, to the bath fan and up and out. That would also seem to
mitigate the moisture/mold potential in the crawl space, even though we have
the visqueen down already. If you reccommend not cutting the hole, is it
still ok to plug up the crawl space vents since there is visqueen down, or
should I still install the thermostatic vents? If so, how many, one for the
entire crawl space or one for each of the 6 vents tot he crawlspace from the
outside?

3.) Regarding #4 below and the venting of the boiler: I checked the unit and
its a Weil McClain, kind of hard to read the stamped plate with the specs on
it, but it looks like model number on the boiler is "PCG-5", "Series 3". It
says it has an A.G.A. rating of 114,000 BTU's per hour input and 112,000
BTU's output per hour. On visual inspection, there only seems to be the one
exhaust vent going straight up and out in its own flue separate from the
fireplace. No incoming air supply from what I can tell. Would the standard
aluminum tube (I believe it to be either 4 or 5 inches in diameter),
connected to the garage window and outflowing to the floor be good
enough/beneficial? It would seem that the cold air from outside in the
winter would naturally want to flow down through the tube (garage is
somewhat heated with a baseboard unit of its own out there, plus the garage
is on a slab, heating it a little). If it doesn't have an air source, what
has it been using before now?...just relying on the basically unsealed
spaces between the garage door and the frame?

4.) What does that BTU rating above equate to ? The 1,000 BTU's you
mentioned below?

5.) What's a sealed combustion unit? Benefits? How much? Is that a
totally new unit/system? I was told to replace the unit we have now would
be about $5-10,000. ....or, simply buy the heat blower attachment for the AC
unit in the attic for about $800. Is that as efficient/desireable as the
boiler?

6.) On the water temp in the system: I already turned this down from 180 to
140. That should be ok, no? Regarding the Outdoor reset, what is that? An
attachment? or should it already be on the unit? How much is it if not?

7.) Regarding the water heater: Its a Kenmore "Power Miser 5", at least
10-12 years old, in the garage next to the boiler. I do not have it
wrapped...should I? What provisions do I need to make for the vertical
pipes on the outside of it? Wrap those in it to, or tuck it inside of those?
On the temp dial, there is not a degree. Instead, on one end of the dial is
"Very Hot" and the other end is "Hot", with letters going from "Very Hot",
then "C", "B", "A" and then "Hot". It was on "B", and I turned it down to
"A", one level above "Hot". Got a guess as to where that puts it, degree
wise?

Thanks for all your time on this. I am currently unemployed and have been
for about 4 months now, so any dollars I can save to avoid $300/month gas
bills this winter is GREATLY appreciated! It sounds like the crawl space
insulation is a no-brainer. Am I OK with the R-13?

Thanks!

Eric Volk
Indy


----- Original Message -----
From: "HeatMan"
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 6:52 PM
Subject: HVAC questions...


Neighbors lie sometimes to impress you...

The rest of my comments are in line.

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote in message
. ..
Live in Indianapolis, @ 1,700 sq. ft. single story ranch style brick
house
built in the early 1950's with a crawl space and hot water/gas heat.
Central A/C was retro-fitted in the early 80's, with all the vents
insulated
and the duct work (the insulated flexible tubes/hoses) running in the
attic.

We paid $250-320 per month from December to March last year (yikes).
However, in spite of the prices being 25-30% higher that year than the
year
previous, our bills were about the same.

Why? Answer: 1.) I replaced the skirt under our front door (the
previous
one was missing about 7 inches of it, so you could see light inside when
sitting in our car outside and 2.) there was a 6ft.x 6ft. square area in
our
attic (just above our bed in fact) that had NO insulation. Tossed some
(about 8 inches) of the fiberfill over it and it made a HUGE difference.
As
a result, our bills at least stayed flat compared to the year before.

Good start.

Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about
$400
TOTAL last year for the same size house with same attachments/features.
The
differences? As follows:

1.) He insulated his crawl space by stapling insulation (R-13) just
below
the joists along the rim board of the house and going down to the ground
of
the crawl space and out about 2 ft. He stated that the cold comes down
thru
the earth and also across out about 18 inches.

Good idea, but I'd take it a step further. Do all that and lay a sheet of
haevy plastic (visqueen) on the dirt. That will trap moisture.

2.) He plugged up and insulated over 4 of the 5 grate vents that went
to
the crawl space. The fifth he left open to let in some air flow. He
indicated the vents were originally put in to be in code in the 1950's,
but
that those codes are now obsolete and that you only had to account for
15
cubic ft. of air flow per minute per person, which is accomplished by
the
following...

Nope. No way. That will really hurt more than help, especially if he
didn't
lay any plastic down. If he didn't lay plastic, he's working on a major
mold problem. At the box stores, there are thermostatic vents for your
crawl. Install them instead. That way, when it does warm up under the
house, it will open the vents to cool down.

3.) He cut a 9"x14" hole in the floor near the center of the house and
had
it vented to just above the grade in the crawl space. Apparently this
creates enough flow....also...the earth temp in the middle of the crawl
space of 56 degrees heats the cold outside air before it can come up to
the
living area. He also indicated that he runs a bathroom fan 24/7 to
assist
in drawing the air flow.

Do what? That one went right over my head.

4.) He "vented" his gas furnace (in the garage in both houses, his and
mine). He basically cut a 4 inch round hole in his garage window,
inserted
a dryer vent fitting into it and then ran aluminum flexible tubing from
the
window down onto the floor. He stated that this gives the furnace all
the
oxygen it needs, while without this, with the garage being largely
sealed,
it doesn't get enough oxygen and the gas flame has some orange to it.
He
also said since the garage is on a slab, the earth's temp heats up that
air
(the garage has a radiator in it, though not a thermostat). Is this
safe?

Maybe yes, maybe no. Codes require 1 square inch per 1,000 BTU's if there
is a direct connection between the appliance and the outside. As I
remember, it's 5 square inches per 1,000 BTU's if it's ducted like you say
his is. Better bet would be to drop some money and get a sealed
combustion
unit.

BTW, furnaces heat air, boilers heat water.

5.) He dialed down the temp of the water running through the system
from
180 degrees to about 110 degrees. He said this causes his electric pump
to
run more continuously, but that it is designed for that and that it uses
a
minimum of electricity. He also said this makes for a more even keeled
temp, in the system and all around in the living space. Safe?

Uh, safe? Probably. Sane? No. If your house had a heat load run on it
and it has a boiler, it's a pretty safe bet that it was designed for the
water temp to be at 180°. In extreme cold weather, 110° water won't keep
the house warm. It's a good idea, but I'd go with something more like
outdoor reset. ODR is like cruise control for the heating system. At 65°
outside, the water temp may be at 95°. At design temp (15°?), water temp
would be at 180°. The water temp varies with the outdoor temp.

6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110.

Nuts. Plain crazy. Leigonella bacteria THRIVE at about that temp
(actually
a little lower). Besides, dishwashers need about 130° water to clean the
dishes correctly. In my area, it's cheaper to heat water with gas than
110v
household current.

Your thoughts on these are greatly appreciated if you are anything close
to
an expert or professional. I am considering implementing all of these.
Should cost less than $250 total, including retrofitting my garage
window
for the vent and the insulation.

My suggestion, less the boiler and ODR will be a bit more than $250, but
the
payback should be better.

I also installed some magnetic vinyl over the two air intakes in the
ceiling
at either end of my house that are used for the a/c (when I lay on the
couch
underneath on of them in the winter, I can feel the cold air cascading
down). I figure if the AC isn't being used, why let warm air up there
to
get cooled down and then fall into the living area? Also, should I use
these over the outflow a/c vents in each room in addition to simply
closing
them?

As long as you remove them before AC season, that won't hurt anything.

Finally, the thing I have the most doubt over is the plugging up the
crawl
space vents, except one, then cutting the hole in the floor with a
grating
on top of it.

Read my comments above.

I want to implement all these, but need a little reassurance that I'm
not
putting my family at risk. He's on a "level pay" system with our Gas
company of $70/month, and just got his "settle up at the end of the
year"
statement, which was accompanied by a check for $355 made out to him.
Nice.

Did you see the check? Around here, they credit your account by lowering
the payments. That would mean $30 less per month. Read my first line....

See this link on crawlspaces, already posted elsewhere.

Crawlspace problems
http://www.contractingbusiness.com/C...S=&NI L=false

Stretch

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote in message
...
Sorry about having to start a new string....for some reason, I can't reply
to anything this morning. Oh, well....

Seems they were cutting in some Coke gas (or
something akin, I'm not sure I remember) , which is not as good as pure
Ng.

There was a city utility north of me that was caught pumping in compressed
air to the NG system when it got cold here(long time ago). That gas service
wasn't owned by the city after that...

Also, regarding the bill/check, Citizen's policy is any amount
overbilled over the amount of $100 is refunded in a check to the client.


Not around here. Besides, that's not an overbilled amount.

Now on to some followup.....

Thanks, HeatMan, for your time on this...

Some other points/follow-ups:

1.) There is already visqueen laid down on the crawl space floor. It's
not
sealed to the walls, but it comes to within at least 6 inches of the
walls.
Is that good enough re the moisture/mold? Since the visqueen is already
down, and assuming I lay in the insulation on the walls and out on the
floor
of the crawl space 2 ft out from the wall, do I still need "thermostatic
vents"? How much are they approximately? If the insulation is down, and
the visqueen is also, does the natural heat from the earth (55 degrees,
no?)
still heat up the air in the crawl space in the winter and cool it down in
summer? I assume it work for us either way, no?


YMMV on the visqueen. I had mine to the wall in my old house. I used clear
and you could really see the water under it. Not putting it to the wall is
like leaving your car windows slightly open all the time.

If you lay insulation directly on the visqueen in the crawl, it's going to
become a soggy mess in a few years or less. I have no idea how much the
vents are, go to the box stores and find out! All insulation on the floor
of the crawl will do is keep that heat/cool in the dirt. I'd insulate
between the floor joists. Just make sure your home is rodent proof.

2.) Regarding the hole in the floor. Hopefully this helps with #3 below.
What I'm talking about is, in a location somewhere near the middle of the
house, cutting in a 9"x14" hole in the floor that would expose the crawl
space (obviously I'd put some sort of grate/grill on it). Then, to
promote
circulation, running the bath fan 24/7, creating a flow from the outside
into the crawl space through the one unplugged crawl space vent, to the
hole
cut in the floor, to the bath fan and up and out. That would also seem to
mitigate the moisture/mold potential in the crawl space, even though we
have
the visqueen down already. If you reccommend not cutting the hole, is it
still ok to plug up the crawl space vents since there is visqueen down, or
should I still install the thermostatic vents? If so, how many, one for
the
entire crawl space or one for each of the 6 vents tot he crawlspace from
the
outside?

I wouldn't do it. Period.

3.) Regarding #4 below and the venting of the boiler: I checked the unit
and
its a Weil McClain, kind of hard to read the stamped plate with the specs
on
it, but it looks like model number on the boiler is "PCG-5", "Series 3".
It
says it has an A.G.A. rating of 114,000 BTU's per hour input and 112,000
BTU's output per hour. On visual inspection, there only seems to be the
one
exhaust vent going straight up and out in its own flue separate from the
fireplace. No incoming air supply from what I can tell. Would the
standard
aluminum tube (I believe it to be either 4 or 5 inches in diameter),
connected to the garage window and outflowing to the floor be good
enough/beneficial? It would seem that the cold air from outside in the
winter would naturally want to flow down through the tube (garage is
somewhat heated with a baseboard unit of its own out there, plus the
garage
is on a slab, heating it a little). If it doesn't have an air source, what
has it been using before now?...just relying on the basically unsealed
spaces between the garage door and the frame?


Would it be beneficial? No clue. It probably would help, but you need a
certain amount of square inches regardless. Up until now, I'm fairly
confident the make-up air has been getting in somewhere...

4.) What does that BTU rating above equate to ? The 1,000 BTU's you
mentioned below?


You figure the combustion air requirement on input BTU's. If your air vent
is on the outside wall, you'd need 114 square inches.

5.) What's a sealed combustion unit? Benefits? How much? Is that a
totally new unit/system? I was told to replace the unit we have now would
be about $5-10,000. ....or, simply buy the heat blower attachment for the
AC
unit in the attic for about $800. Is that as efficient/desireable as the
boiler?

Sealed combustion uses air directly from the outside and then vents the
waste gas out, using NO inside air for combustion. They aren't cheap, but
they are efficient, regardless of what that moron Nick says...

6.) On the water temp in the system: I already turned this down from 180
to
140. That should be ok, no? Regarding the Outdoor reset, what is that?
An
attachment? or should it already be on the unit? How much is it if not?

Will it be okay? I don't know. Your house was probably designed for a
water temp of 180°. Setting it at 140° will do for most of the times, but
probably won't be enough when the temps hit the design temprature. Outdoor
reset is like cruise control for your heating system. As the temps drop,
the water temps rise. At 65°, the water may be at 105°. At design
temp(5°?), the water temp would be at 180°. How much? I can't give you a
price from here.

7.) Regarding the water heater: Its a Kenmore "Power Miser 5", at least
10-12 years old, in the garage next to the boiler. I do not have it
wrapped...should I? What provisions do I need to make for the vertical
pipes on the outside of it? Wrap those in it to, or tuck it inside of
those?
On the temp dial, there is not a degree. Instead, on one end of the dial
is
"Very Hot" and the other end is "Hot", with letters going from "Very Hot",
then "C", "B", "A" and then "Hot". It was on "B", and I turned it down to
"A", one level above "Hot". Got a guess as to where that puts it, degree
wise?

Gas water heater? Your ROI on wrapping it with insulation woould probably
be 12-15 years. Insulating the hot water lines would be a good idea, IMO.
To set the temp, you need to get a good thermometer and correlate it with
the letters.

Thanks for all your time on this. I am currently unemployed and have been
for about 4 months now, so any dollars I can save to avoid $300/month gas
bills this winter is GREATLY appreciated! It sounds like the crawl space
insulation is a no-brainer. Am I OK with the R-13?


Okay with R13? Around here, you'd be great. Where you're at, who knows?

I'd spend more time job hunting than talking to neighbors and surfing the
'net. Flipping burgers would make you some money, but I don't think you'll
be able to cut your gas bills enough to make up for the difference...

Good Luck.



Thanks!

Eric Volk
Indy

HeatMan wrote:

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote:

... I checked the unit and its a Weil McClain, kind of hard to read the
stamped plate with the specs on it, but it looks like model number on
the boiler is "PCG-5", "Series 3". It says it has an A.G.A. rating of
114,000 BTU's per hour input and 112,000 BTU's output per hour.

.... 100x112/114 = 98% efficiency sounds high. You might check further.

No incoming air supply from what I can tell. Would the standard
aluminum tube (I believe it to be either 4 or 5 inches in diameter),
connected to the garage window and outflowing to the floor be good
enough/beneficial?

Sounds fairly useless, in an average US house that naturally leaks
2400ft^2x8x0.7ACH/60 = 224 cfm of air. The boiler might need about
10 ft^3 of combustion air per ft^3 of gas, something like 10x114
= 1140 ft^3/h, or 19 cfm.

Would it be beneficial? No clue.

Typical :-)

5.) What's a sealed combustion unit? Benefits? How much?...

Sealed combustion uses air directly from the outside and then vents the
waste gas out, using NO inside air for combustion. They aren't cheap, but
they are efficient, regardless of what that moron Nick says...

So far, it seems the main advantage would be to fatten an HVAC installer's
wallet :-) You might say using outside air for combustion reduces the need
for winter humidification, but maybe the energy used to humidify air comes
back in the flue as more condensation, and winter humidification seems like
a bad idea for energy savings, in any case. You might say it's more efficient
to heat that 19 cfm from 30 to 70 in the boiler at 100% rather than in the
house at 98%(?), but that only saves 19x(70-30)0.02 = 15 Btu/h, no?

Nick

wrote in message
...
HeatMan wrote:

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote:

... I checked the unit and its a Weil McClain, kind of hard to read the
stamped plate with the specs on it, but it looks like model number on
the boiler is "PCG-5", "Series 3". It says it has an A.G.A. rating of
114,000 BTU's per hour input and 112,000 BTU's output per hour.

... 100x112/114 = 98% efficiency sounds high. You might check further.

No incoming air supply from what I can tell. Would the standard
aluminum tube (I believe it to be either 4 or 5 inches in diameter),
connected to the garage window and outflowing to the floor be good
enough/beneficial?

Sounds fairly useless, in an average US house that naturally leaks
2400ft^2x8x0.7ACH/60 = 224 cfm of air. The boiler might need about
10 ft^3 of combustion air per ft^3 of gas, something like 10x114
= 1140 ft^3/h, or 19 cfm.


Define an average house. The codes say what's required, so I have to follow
them.

Would it be beneficial? No clue.

Typical :-)

???

5.) What's a sealed combustion unit? Benefits? How much?...

Sealed combustion uses air directly from the outside and then vents the
waste gas out, using NO inside air for combustion. They aren't cheap,
but
they are efficient, regardless of what that moron Nick says...

So far, it seems the main advantage would be to fatten an HVAC installer's
wallet :-) You might say using outside air for combustion reduces the need
for winter humidification, but maybe the energy used to humidify air comes
back in the flue as more condensation, and winter humidification seems
like
a bad idea for energy savings, in any case. You might say it's more
efficient
to heat that 19 cfm from 30 to 70 in the boiler at 100% rather than in the
house at 98%(?), but that only saves 19x(70-30)0.02 = 15 Btu/h, no?

Not quite. I'm looking at not using any inside air. No infiltration around
doors or windows by mechanical means.