On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:02:42 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"dean" wrote in message
roups.com...
I am thinking of moving the opener motor up a little and need to undo
it, just wondering if there is much tension in the springs that I
should be aware of?


There is enough tension is the springs to kill or seriously injure you
if you don't know what you are doing. They do have a life cycle and
they do break when stressed.

The practical benefit of springs is that they allow less force to be
used when lifting the door, thus, smaller horse-power motors can be
used in your garage door opener. Maximum tension on the spring is
when the door is in the down position.

Proper adjustment of the spring(s) (typically there are two of them)
requires training and experience. Garage door service companies are
located in every major city.

If you need to work on your garage door opener, there should be an
isolating pull level on the door. This is typically used to allow the
door to be operated when there is a power failure. The springs are
still part of the door system, however.

Beachcomber

"Beachcomber" wrote in message
There is enough tension is the springs to kill or seriously injure you
if you don't know what you are doing. They do have a life cycle and
they do break when stressed.

Proper adjustment of the spring(s) (typically there are two of them)
requires training and experience. Garage door service companies are
located in every major city.

This is for the torsion springs found over the top of the door opening.
This does not apply to the coil springs that are along the sides next to the
track. Step one is to determine what type you have.

Ok thanks all, that's great info there.

What I want to do is raise the GDO and the back end of the rails up
about 18 inches, so that the door is raised higher than it is now. Then
I can use a vehicle lift to a greater height. Does it matter if the
upper rail sections slope down toward the front rather than being
horizontal?

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
: Ok thanks all, that's great info there.
:
: What I want to do is raise the GDO and the back end of the
rails up
: about 18 inches, so that the door is raised higher than it is
now. Then
: I can use a vehicle lift to a greater height. Does it matter if
the
: upper rail sections slope down toward the front rather than
being
: horizontal?
:
Not really, but ... beware. The current tracks had a 90 degree
bend; you cannot change the amount of bend as you intend to do.
The entire track that is horizontal must be moved upward the
eighteen inches, or you'll have to find some method to get other
than 90 degrees inthe tracks. Forcing the back up by eighteen
inches is going to cause the tracks to twist and flex and isn't
likely to be a very safe situation. Better to raise the whole
vertical part of t he tracks by that much. Then it stays level,
too.
It sounded at first that you were only moving hte motor; it's
a different situation moving the tracks like that. You make me
nervous; you should see an expert in your area; check the phone
book.

PopS

I was thinking of removing both the curved sections of rail and cutting
them shorted, so that the curve is less than 90 degrees. (I presume its
not all one single piece.)

dean wrote:

I was thinking of removing both the curved sections of rail and cutting
them shorted, so that the curve is less than 90 degrees. (I presume its
not all one single piece.)


I presume you are speaking about a garage door with two tension springs.

If so:

I can't see why what you propose won't work if you make your cuts very
carefully and leave enough metal for the tabs at the ends of the curved
sections which join them onto the straight sections. Some new joining
holes may have to be drilled in them, of course.

Since the opener can already handle the force needed to start lifting
the door from the fully closed position, it should have plenty of moxie
to pull the door up the incline you are creating.

I don't think you'll even have to change the settings of the spring
tension. Just measure their stretched length when the door is closed and
get tham back to that length when you are done.

Oh, and if you don't have safety cables running through those expansion
springs PUT SOME IN when you do the work. Those springs can flail around
pretty good when an end eye snaps off. Safety cables are very cheap
insurance against someone getting beaned.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Yes, I agree with all that you said. I was only thinking that for some
reason it would be unsafe to have the door on a slope, if I left it
open and, I dunno, the springs broke or something, it might just roll
down and hurt someone.

I'll take a look at the rails tonight, to see if they can be modified.

Thanks,

Dean

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
dean wrote:

I was thinking of removing both the curved sections of rail and cutting
them shorted, so that the curve is less than 90 degrees. (I presume its
not all one single piece.)


I presume you are speaking about a garage door with two tension springs.

If so:

I can't see why what you propose won't work if you make your cuts very
carefully and leave enough metal for the tabs at the ends of the curved
sections which join them onto the straight sections. Some new joining
holes may have to be drilled in them, of course.

Since the opener can already handle the force needed to start lifting
the door from the fully closed position, it should have plenty of moxie
to pull the door up the incline you are creating.

Mmm.... the door will hang off the springs if it's not horizontal, so
the slack will have to be taken out of the springs in the up position
to get it up fully. Although I suppose it doesn't have to be up fully,
as long as you can drive in and out when it's up as far as it goes.



I don't think you'll even have to change the settings of the spring
tension. Just measure their stretched length when the door is closed and
get tham back to that length when you are done.

Oh, and if you don't have safety cables running through those expansion
springs PUT SOME IN when you do the work. Those springs can flail around
pretty good when an end eye snaps off. Safety cables are very cheap
insurance against someone getting beaned.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

A 7' high door's horizontal track is approximately 8'4" long so a 18" rise
will give it an approximate pitch of 10 degrees. You can raise the track at
the rear, but you will have to change your system over to torsion springs.
Extension springs would not be suitable for this application because the
door will hang in the header due to gravity, incline and weight of the door.
If you add tension to the springs to keep it out of the header then the
springs will be too strong at the floor. If you rely on your opener to keep
the door out of the header you will overwork your opener. You will have to
use torsion springs. In which case the drums that you will have to use as
well as the springs and the length of the cable will have to be calculated
based on the pitch of the tracks, height and weight of your door.

Rich
http://www.garagedoorsupply.com

It's just my opinion, but:

"Rich" wrote in message
newsKnYe.5969$iu5.4877@trndny04...
:A 7' high door's horizontal track is approximately 8'4" long so
a 18" rise
: will give it an approximate pitch of 10 degrees. You can raise
the track at
: the rear, but you will have to change your system over to
torsion springs.
=== I don't see the need to be switching to torsion springs for
a couple of reasons:
1. Cost of the new system
2. Harder to work on without rather specialized tools
3. They cannot lift a door any further into the tracks than the
location of the springs; the other type can move the door
completely away from the header if you have the track room.

: Extension springs would not be suitable for this application
because the
: door will hang in the header due to gravity, incline and weight
of the door.
=== Disagree. To keep the door out of the header you simply
adjust the stop-point. It's the opener that determines where the
door will stop, not the springs.
: If you add tension to the springs to keep it out of the header
then the
: springs will be too strong at the floor.
=== It's not tension that keeps it out of the header; it's the
opener motor stop point and the physical position of the rotary
springs.

If you rely on your opener to keep
: the door out of the header you will overwork your opener.
=== No, you will not. The door is at its lightest drag on the
motor in the up position and the motor of a non-torsion system
can pull the door as far back as the system tracks will allow.
It's a very small load on the opener compared to when the door is
fully closed and starts to open.

You will have to
: use torsion springs. In which case the drums that you will
have to use as
: well as the springs and the length of the cable will have to be
calculated
: based on the pitch of the tracks, height and weight of your
door.
=== I don't know what you're on about here. There is a system
already in place which can easily be modified to meet the
requirements. The OP is simply trying to do it safely but with a
minimum of cost.
:
: Rich
: http://www.garagedoorsupply.com

=== I'm not trying to mandate for no torsion spring systems;
it's just that this is an already workable and modifiable system
and the expense of a new install just isn't called for.

If the track is going to be pitched then extension springs won't suffice for
the job. Extension springs will not hold the door in the header because it
won't have enough "pull" while in the open position (the springs will be
relaxed) to defeat the weight of the door (the door will be trying to roll
down the track) in an inclined track.

A Torsion system using the proper drums will hold the door in the open
position, out of the header, on a pitched track application far better than
an extension spring system would, but I don't think you truly understand the
concepts at play here.

There are various configurations of drums to be used with either regular
headroom, high lift, or vertical lift applications. The drums to be used
here will depend upon the amount of pitch of the inclined tracks.

Evidently you have never worked on an track system other than a normal
horizontal tracks.... if that.

Rather specialized tools!!! Two plain steel rods are the only additional
tools used to do the job. This comment of yours exposes the fact that
you're not very familiar with garage door torsion springs.

Sure the motor can hold the door open but you shouldn't depend on the motor
to hold a door up that hangs in the header. The door should work smoothly
and stop in a normal position under manual operation. Using the opener to
force the door higher because the springs can't do it is obviously putting
more of a load on the operator.

Install the proper equipment/parts for the job at hand so you don't have to
"jury rig" your door.

It's not rocket science Pop, it's really quite elementary. ;-)

Rich

LOL, you've got a real load of false ego today, don't you?
You're certainly good at making judgements based on nothing and
trying to make yourself look like you want to.

I don't intend to refute your illogicals and misinformation (due
to your method of application, not that it's 100% wrong), so you
can relax; I see no point in warring with an unarmed enemy.

Respond if you wish; I'm done with you.

"Rich" wrote in message
news:5PCYe.20258$265.3411@trndny07...
: If the track is going to be pitched then extension springs
won't suffice for
: the job. Extension springs will not hold the door in the
header because it
: won't have enough "pull" while in the open position (the
springs will be
: relaxed) to defeat the weight of the door (the door will be
trying to roll
: down the track) in an inclined track.
:
: A Torsion system using the proper drums will hold the door in
the open
: position, out of the header, on a pitched track application far
better than
: an extension spring system would, but I don't think you truly
understand the
: concepts at play here.
:
: There are various configurations of drums to be used with
either regular
: headroom, high lift, or vertical lift applications. The drums
to be used
: here will depend upon the amount of pitch of the inclined
tracks.
:
: Evidently you have never worked on an track system other than a
normal
: horizontal tracks.... if that.
:
: Rather specialized tools!!! Two plain steel rods are the only
additional
: tools used to do the job. This comment of yours exposes the
fact that
: you're not very familiar with garage door torsion springs.
:
: Sure the motor can hold the door open but you shouldn't depend
on the motor
: to hold a door up that hangs in the header. The door should
work smoothly
: and stop in a normal position under manual operation. Using
the opener to
: force the door higher because the springs can't do it is
obviously putting
: more of a load on the operator.
:
: Install the proper equipment/parts for the job at hand so you
don't have to
: "jury rig" your door.
:
: It's not rocket science Pop, it's really quite elementary.
;-)
:
: Rich
:
:

Yeah, in the "up" position, the coil springs will likely be sagging.
And there may be some tension on the torsion springs. But
the door should be adjusted(here read that the springs
should be adjusted" so that you can let the door down, with
springs engaged, and it should stop at about the level of
your hip. So that if you should have to raise it without
help of the opener, your wife or whoever can do it.
So, frankly, I would suggest you consider having a garage
door tune-up done by a pro for about $75, and be ready for
the winter.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am thinking of moving the opener motor up a little and need to
undo it, just wondering if there is much tension in the springs
that I should be aware of?

Thanks

Dean


What type of spring? The coil springs or the torsion springs that
are wound up? The coils have just about nothing on them.

Thanks all especially Pop for that huge reply!

Ok I took some measurements. The rail has a 12" radius bend, so I was
told (though it seems more like 15" to me). Guys said it could also go
on a 32"" bend, which would raise the rails up by 20 inches. Door is
16' wide x 7' high, vinyl or plastic surface on a wooden subframe.

The current opener has to go up 32" (more that I had originally
thought). Right now it sits about 5 inches below what I think is
horizontal. If I pull this up 10 inches so its angled the other way, it
would still be almost flat. So now I have 30 inches (from the 20"
increase in radius plus lifting up the motor 10". Ok I can live with
that. Can this work? Rails would be horizontal too. I also have to know
if the door will come back any more this way, because the back of the
motor is flush below a large steel I-beam in the middle of the room, so
I can't go back any more than that. If someone wants to see a pic I
could email you!

Dean

Actually, it sounds like that would work if you have room for the
20" rise at the door. The main thing, IMO would be to keep the
tracks as reasonably close to level as you can but perfection
isn't necessary. I think you have a workable solution, IMO at
least.

Be certain you keep those track to track spacings right, and when
you lift the door by hand for the first time, closely watch the
rollers to be certain nothing is being stressed or pulled out of
position.

PopS

"dean" wrote in message
ups.com...
: Thanks all especially Pop for that huge reply!
:
: Ok I took some measurements. The rail has a 12" radius bend, so
I was
: told (though it seems more like 15" to me). Guys said it could
also go
: on a 32"" bend, which would raise the rails up by 20 inches.
Door is
: 16' wide x 7' high, vinyl or plastic surface on a wooden
subframe.
:
: The current opener has to go up 32" (more that I had originally
: thought). Right now it sits about 5 inches below what I think
is
: horizontal. If I pull this up 10 inches so its angled the other
way, it
: would still be almost flat. So now I have 30 inches (from the
20"
: increase in radius plus lifting up the motor 10". Ok I can live
with
: that. Can this work? Rails would be horizontal too. I also have
to know
: if the door will come back any more this way, because the back
of the
: motor is flush below a large steel I-beam in the middle of the
room, so
: I can't go back any more than that. If someone wants to see a
pic I
: could email you!
:
: Dean
:

No the door shouldn't go back any further, but the door probably won't
open all the way. If you raise the front of the opener 20" that means
the opener arm will have to be 20" longer then it is now & most likely
the arm will run into the motor head way before the door is fully open.

Personally I would agree w/ Rich that sloping the track will give you
many issues & in my opinion if you could get the door to work at all it
would work like crap without changing parts to compensate for the
difference in weight when the door is open.

Doordoc
www.DoorsAndOpeners.com.

wrote:

No the door shouldn't go back any further, but the door probably won't
open all the way. If you raise the front of the opener 20" that means
the opener arm will have to be 20" longer then it is now & most likely
the arm will run into the motor head way before the door is fully open.

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, isn't the door "fully open"
when its bottom edge reaches the top of the door opening?

I realize that the whole door won't be lying on the horizontal part of
the tracks if it is stopped at that point, but the door opener doesn't
have to travel any further to "open" the door than it did when the
horizontal portion of the tracks were 20" lower. There would just be a
lot more weight to have to restrain if something bust, which is NOT a
good thing.


Personally I would agree w/ Rich that sloping the track will give you
many issues & in my opinion if you could get the door to work at all it
would work like crap without changing parts to compensate for the
difference in weight when the door is open.

If the slope of the tracks is 8.5 degrees as stated earlier, and the
door weighs 300 pounds, then it'll take only about 40 pound of force
from the springs to keep the door from rolling down that incline if the
opener to door connection breaks loose. That sounds pretty doable to me.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

There's a lot of tension. I have a double wooden garage door. When one
spring broke, I couldn't lift the door manually. I called the 'door doctor'
and watched him work on it. It looked dangerous.

Wayne in Ottawa

dean wrote:
I am thinking of moving the opener motor up a little and need to undo
it, just wondering if there is much tension in the springs that I
should be aware of?

Thanks

Dean

My springs (coil) are pretty slack when the door is all the way up,
i.e. entirely on the horizontal piced of the track. Of course, in that
position there isn't much gravitational force on it, compared to when
it is halfway up, for instance.

Had the spring break once when the door was down. I was outside the
garage. Good thing too, since getting it open involved a trip to the
tool store, a couple of huge screw eyes, and a big comealong handlever
operated winchy thing. Jeez those doors are heavy. I imagine getting
hit by the spring would take your head right off. Which reminds me...
is it just me or are those safety cables that thread through the
springs getting harder to find for some reason? I had to get one each
from Home Depot and Lowes last time.