Hello,

As some of you have followed I'm replacing a vinyl tiled kitchen floor with
porcelain tiles.
I had hired a contractor to do the entire remodel but had to let him go
because of quality issues.

As an example he recommended tiling right on top of the vinyl tile. I
checked this out here and with some professional tilers and the consensus
was while it's never a good idea if the vinyl tile is very well set and is
of the non-cushioned type you can get away with it. This contractor said
that the tile was as well set as he'd seen and that it would be fine to tile
over.

Well yesterday (he's gone now and I'm completing this by myself) I was
painting walls and a caulk gun fell off a stepladder and chipped a nice
sized piece out of one of the vinyl tiles. Thinking this was odd behavior
for a floor that's so well set we can put ceramic tile over it I checked it
out a bit further and lo and behold the tiles came rather easily off of the
floor. This was next to impossible to detect with all the edges and corners
down.

So I immediately decided to rip the floor up as was suggested by all but
this contractor and while I'm not finished yet so far doing half of it has
taken about 2 hrs. This is with a hammer and a scraper, nothing fancier
than that. To my thinking if this floor was really ok to tile over it
should have taken a lot longer than that. So one fortuitous accident (the
caulk gun falling) has probably saved me from laying a tile floor that would
have been nothing but a headache.

Ok now the questions

1) This floor is by no means down to clean concrete. There are remnants of
some sort of building paper they decided to put down in some places (and
oddly enough not in others, this is only a 12x12 room...) and there is old
adhesive etc.

Pretty sure I don't want to tile directly over this stuff. I have to level
the floor a bit anyway. What's the best way to prep this floor? Skim coat
it with leveling compound? Nail or glue hardibacker to it? I'd like to
keep the added height to a minimum. Do I have to sand all this crap off?
(god, please no)

2) Before I was told I didn't have to use the fiberglass membrane for
keeping slab cracks from telescoping to the floor. This was due to the
vinyl tile being in place. Well it's gone now so I assume I have to use
this membrane product. Should I install that underneath or on top of
whatever flooring prep (leveler or hardibacker or whatever) I use.

Incidentally, I have some insight now into the real reason the contrator
didn't want to remove this floor. Basically he had done it once and
believed he had been exposed to asbestos etc. (This was learned in a rather
long not very coherent rant when I told him that everyone had recommended
removing the floor.) He mentioned that it would take us 7 days to remove it
all and that "he would stake his contractor's license that this floor was ok
to tile over." It's taken me 2 hrs to do half of it by hand being careful
not to hit the cabinets we shouldn't have installed til after this was done.
If I had rented a tile remover removing the whole floor would probably have
taken no longer than an hour.

Thanks in advance for the help
ml

The asbestos floor tile is not the flaky, dangerous asbestos used in
insulation applications of long ago. As I understand it, the people
that came down with asbestosis were exposed to it for a very prolonged
period of time.

However, use proper precautions. Turn off your air handler if you have
one, wear a breather mask, put a window fan in place in that room to
suck air out, open up another window somewhere to create a
cross-breeze, put plastic over any doorways, create negative pressure
in the room you are working in to help keep dust from leaving the work
area... etc.

You can go nuts, but I don't think there is too much danger in removing
the old floor tiles. Others will probably disagree with me, but just
one man's opinion...

Hey, I just removed 200 sq ft of the old tile using the same
precautions and I feel fine! G

On 6-Jun-2005, wrote:

The asbestos floor tile is not the flaky, dangerous asbestos used in
insulation applications of long ago. As I understand it, the people
that came down with asbestosis were exposed to it for a very prolonged
period of time.

However, use proper precautions. Turn off your air handler if you have
one, wear a breather mask, put a window fan in place in that room to
suck air out, open up another window somewhere to create a
cross-breeze, put plastic over any doorways, create negative pressure
in the room you are working in to help keep dust from leaving the work
area... etc.

You can go nuts, but I don't think there is too much danger in removing
the old floor tiles. Others will probably disagree with me, but just
one man's opinion...

Hey, I just removed 200 sq ft of the old tile using the same
precautions and I feel fine! G

Um, thanks for the info but this doesn't really relate to what I'm doing.
The remark about asbestos tile had to do with a job the contractor I had
originally hired for the job did some time ago. And most likely there was
no asbestos there either.

I just have vinyl tile and am not worried about any exposure issues.

thanks
ml

wrote:


Ok now the questions

1) This floor is by no means down to clean concrete. There are remnants of
some sort of building paper they decided to put down in some places (and
oddly enough not in others, this is only a 12x12 room...) and there is old
adhesive etc.

Pretty sure I don't want to tile directly over this stuff. I have to level
the floor a bit anyway. What's the best way to prep this floor? Skim coat
it with leveling compound? Nail or glue hardibacker to it? I'd like to
keep the added height to a minimum. Do I have to sand all this crap off?
(god, please no)

Hardibacker is not put down over slabs. Have you tried using a razor
scraper on the paper and adhesive? As for the adhesive if it's stuck
good and next to impossible to scrape you can use modified thinset over
it. Read the bag and it will advise if it can be used over cutback and
other adhesives. But the adhesive can not be loose and chipping. Razor
scraper ad elbow grease. Buy a pack of blades with the tool.

As for level, being flat and even is more important so lay a
straightedge on the floor to check for flatness. In many cases you can
make some adjustments for minor low and high spots as you tile by
backbuttering etc, if the elevations are not to pronounced. Extreme
high points on the slab should be ground off. fwiw, floor levelers are
generally a pia for the beginner and if their use can be avoided, do so.


2) Before I was told I didn't have to use the fiberglass membrane for
keeping slab cracks from telescoping to the floor. This was due to the
vinyl tile being in place. Well it's gone now so I assume I have to use
this membrane product. Should I install that underneath or on top of
whatever flooring prep (leveler or hardibacker or whatever) I use.

Elastomeric membranes work and worth every penny. Especially helpful for
new slabs that are in the 'process' of curing. I'm partial to the ECB
product, but it must go over a clean floor. It would go down after you
use a self-leveler, if you do.

I'm no expert in terms of the overall floor prep but to remove the adhesive,
should you decide to do so, can be done with a strong Methylene Chloride
product such as Jasco Glue and Adhesive remover. I'd see how flat the
floor is and based on that, remove the adhesive (this stuff will clean the
concrete as well of any oils etc...), put down the membrane, and start
tiling. If the floor is not flat, well then you've prolly got to go with
the thinset route.
Cheers,
cc

wrote in message news:EaZoe.10$6s.7@fed1read02...
Hello,

As some of you have followed I'm replacing a vinyl tiled kitchen floor
with
porcelain tiles.
I had hired a contractor to do the entire remodel but had to let him go
because of quality issues.

As an example he recommended tiling right on top of the vinyl tile. I
checked this out here and with some professional tilers and the consensus
was while it's never a good idea if the vinyl tile is very well set and is
of the non-cushioned type you can get away with it. This contractor said
that the tile was as well set as he'd seen and that it would be fine to
tile
over.

Well yesterday (he's gone now and I'm completing this by myself) I was
painting walls and a caulk gun fell off a stepladder and chipped a nice
sized piece out of one of the vinyl tiles. Thinking this was odd behavior
for a floor that's so well set we can put ceramic tile over it I checked
it
out a bit further and lo and behold the tiles came rather easily off of
the
floor. This was next to impossible to detect with all the edges and
corners
down.

So I immediately decided to rip the floor up as was suggested by all but
this contractor and while I'm not finished yet so far doing half of it has
taken about 2 hrs. This is with a hammer and a scraper, nothing fancier
than that. To my thinking if this floor was really ok to tile over it
should have taken a lot longer than that. So one fortuitous accident (the
caulk gun falling) has probably saved me from laying a tile floor that
would
have been nothing but a headache.

Ok now the questions

1) This floor is by no means down to clean concrete. There are remnants
of
some sort of building paper they decided to put down in some places (and
oddly enough not in others, this is only a 12x12 room...) and there is old
adhesive etc.

Pretty sure I don't want to tile directly over this stuff. I have to
level
the floor a bit anyway. What's the best way to prep this floor? Skim
coat
it with leveling compound? Nail or glue hardibacker to it? I'd like to
keep the added height to a minimum. Do I have to sand all this crap off?
(god, please no)

2) Before I was told I didn't have to use the fiberglass membrane for
keeping slab cracks from telescoping to the floor. This was due to the
vinyl tile being in place. Well it's gone now so I assume I have to use
this membrane product. Should I install that underneath or on top of
whatever flooring prep (leveler or hardibacker or whatever) I use.

Incidentally, I have some insight now into the real reason the contrator
didn't want to remove this floor. Basically he had done it once and
believed he had been exposed to asbestos etc. (This was learned in a
rather
long not very coherent rant when I told him that everyone had recommended
removing the floor.) He mentioned that it would take us 7 days to remove
it
all and that "he would stake his contractor's license that this floor was
ok
to tile over." It's taken me 2 hrs to do half of it by hand being
careful
not to hit the cabinets we shouldn't have installed til after this was
done.
If I had rented a tile remover removing the whole floor would probably
have
taken no longer than an hour.

Thanks in advance for the help
ml

On 6-Jun-2005, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson" wrote:

but to remove the adhesive,
should you decide to do so, can be done with a strong Methylene Chloride
product such as Jasco Glue and Adhesive remover.

Thanks for the info. Methylene Chloride is setting of alarm bells in the
back of my mind though. Isn't this stuff a major carcinogen?
Answering my own question I find this link
http://www.hsia.org/white_papers/dcm%20wp.htm
which sort of indicates while you don't want to put this on your salad it
should be reasonably safe to use occasionally.

I believe I'll try this stuff out if it doesn't cost the farm.

ml

The Jasco Adhesive Remover and a razor scraper are going right through this
stuff.
Thanks guys, you rock!

ml