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sanity (or perhaps insanity) check
Hello,
this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml |
wrote in message Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Just a guess that he's kidding you. |
That was my first thought as well. My reply back to him was "you're kidding
right?". And he said no.. he does it that way all the time. This wouldn't be the first thing he's done that demonstrates he's a bit of a hack. I just hope to hell my new window doesn't leak everywhere and the stucco patch fall out when the rainy season hits.... Has a general contractor's license too... .. Ah well.. live and learn.. glad I caught this one before we installed. |
Hello again,
It now occurs to me to wonder about another aspect of this floor job. We're going to lay the tiles over existing 1x1 sq ft vinyl tile. Installer says this is fine as long as the tiles are firmly set and we've chipped away some of the loose pieces around the border and used some floor leveler to build up the slab to a height that's flush with the vinyl tile. He did go around and pretty carefully inspect the floor for suspect tiles. Seemed to know what he was looking for. I've researched this a bit and didn't find any big red flags regarding laying porcelain tile over vinyl. Basically just the same concerns that the installer has, to make sure that the vinyl is firmly set. Any other gotcha's regarding this I should be aware of? Is a special mortar required? Any special surface prep of the existing vinyl needed? Again I haven't seen anything jumping out of google searchs regarding this but if someone has any info I'd appreciate it. Really like to do this right the first time. thanks for comments ml |
We're going to lay the tiles over existing 1x1 sq ft vinyl tile. Installer says this is fine You can get some perspectives on this question by typing in "tile over vinyl" (in quotes) in the Google "Groups" search bar. Overall advice is you should never do this, as your plastic tiles are compressible and will result in cracking and de-bonding of the mortar or mastic, ruining the tile job... This story, plus the willingness for the contractor to leave the spacers in the tile, should tell you to discontinue your dependence on this fellow. |
Thanks for the info. I have read the various google hits that come up on
the first few pages anyway. If any vinyl tile can be tiled over w/ceramic, as some have reported using modified thinset, then I think these can. They are thin, installed directly on the slab, and have almost no compressibility left in them. They are very firmly set as well. Had I put less trust in this contractor to start with I would have had us remove the flooring prior to installing the cabinets. I really don't want to try and remove the flooring now that the cabinets are installed. I'm gonna get some professional tile setters opinions and bids and go from there. And yes, my installer is now my ex-installer. thanks again ml |
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Roger Taylor wrote:
We're going to lay the tiles over existing 1x1 sq ft vinyl tile. Installer says this is fine You can get some perspectives on this question by typing in "tile over vinyl" (in quotes) in the Google "Groups" search bar. Overall advice is you should never do this, as your plastic tiles are compressible and will result in cracking and de-bonding of the mortar or mastic, ruining the tile job... This story, plus the willingness for the contractor to leave the spacers in the tile, should tell you to discontinue your dependence on this fellow. Okay for the most part, but your wisdom concerning "compressible" blah blah does not necessarily apply to vinyl sheet goods or even the vinyl tiles. Tile is installed over vinyl 'sheet' goods all of the time and is an acceptable practice by TCA standards. However, I would not install over vinyl 'tiles', and as the OP mentioned he has some chipped ones. |
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there are some chipped ones yes but he cut them back until he hit firmly set
tile and then troweled in floor leveler (Jasco) to get a level surface. Also where the tiles are chipped are areas that are actually underneath the base cabinets and up against the toe kick. Those areas won't get much vertical force on them. Like I said, if it's possible to do at all then I think it can be done here. I was more concerned with prep of the surface for adhesion than the integrity of the surface flexion. still, I very much appreciate the input. ml |
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Sigh,
I get yet another clue that the contractor I hired had no clue as I install the toe kick facing on the base cabinets. This would have been so much easier to do if we had done it before installing the cabinets. But no... so now its get my face into the floor as I try nailing this delicate maple facing to the toe kicks. |
wrote in message installing the cabinets. But no... so now its get my face into the floor as I try nailing this delicate maple facing to the toe kicks. Just enough nails to hold it in place while the glue dries. |
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message installing the cabinets. But no... so now its get my face into the floor as I try nailing this delicate maple facing to the toe kicks. Just enough nails to hold it in place while the glue dries. Brad nailer maybe. |
On 29-May-2005, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: Just enough nails to hold it in place while the glue dries. I asked about just gluing all these trim pieces in place but apparently that's a really bad idea in a kitchen where the wood is going to move a lot from the humidity. Oh well. Using 1" #18 brads so perhaps "nailing" was a bit of a misnomer. Afraid to use a power nailer. This stuff splits very easily. Cracked 1 toe kick endcap before i decided to snip the heads off as well. Yes, that was with pre-drilling. Not pre-drilling is a non-starter. All is well now. Things proceeding nicely. First time I've done any finish work like this and aside from that one crack everything is looking good. The cove moulding will be the test. |
This would have been so much easier to do if we had done it before
installing the cabinets. But no... so now its get my face into the floor as I try nailing this delicate maple facing to the toe kicks. Just did mine, "after". Used my "air" powered finishing nailer and 13/16" 18 GA nails. Practiced first so I had a low setting on the air so as not to "pound" the heads in too far (~1/16th). This was after the cabinets were in and the U/c heat vent and vac-pan were put in place. Cant see the fin nail heads unless I get down and lay on the floor. Wife will fill them with matching colored wax "crayon" if it bothers her. R |
In article , G Henslee says...
wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty |
Banty wrote:
In article , G Henslee says... wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty If it's loose in several places or it's a perimeter glue-down product, remove it. I use a power scraper - Makita. |
In article , G Henslee says...
Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty If it's loose in several places or it's a perimeter glue-down product, remove it. I use a power scraper - Makita. It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty |
Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use
those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? If you are using the spacers correctly, they should stick up from the floor. There's no way that you could leave them in place. These are the little "+" pieces. You stand them up between the tiles. The cross part of the "+" (the "-" part) fits on top of the tile. The bottom part of the "+" gives you the gap. The top part of the "+" gives you something to grab to remove them. |
Noozer wrote:
If you are using the spacers correctly, they should stick up from the floor. There's no way that you could leave them in place. These are the little "+" pieces. You stand them up between the tiles. The cross part of the "+" (the "-" part) fits on top of the tile. The bottom part of the "+" gives you the gap. The top part of the "+" gives you something to grab to remove them. Nice try, but that's nonsense and you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The spacers are stuck in as one installs tiles. There's no set method of "fitting them on top of the tile" in order to be "correctly" using them. Stick the things in there to get the spacing, then yank them out with small needlenose piers before grouting. |
Banty wrote:
In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty If it's loose in several places or it's a perimeter glue-down product, remove it. I use a power scraper - Makita. It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. |
Is that a joke?
So I guess all of the 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 etc inch spacers all give you a real spacing of 1/8 in or whatever that's the thickness of the things. You lay them down flat, not vertically. Sheesh. The tool "especially engineered for removing them" costs about $5 at the despot. As Mr. Henslee notes a pair of needlenose pliers would do just fine. |
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In article , G Henslee says...
Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty If it's loose in several places or it's a perimeter glue-down product, remove it. I use a power scraper - Makita. It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty |
"Rudy" wrote in message news:YNzme.1518057$6l.1082955@pd7tw2no... This would have been so much easier to do if we had done it before installing the cabinets. But no... so now its get my face into the floor as I try nailing this delicate maple facing to the toe kicks. Just did mine, "after". Used my "air" powered finishing nailer and 13/16" 18 GA nails. Practiced first so I had a low setting on the air so as not to "pound" the heads in too far (~1/16th). This was after the cabinets were in and the U/c heat vent and vac-pan were put in place. Cant see the fin nail heads unless I get down and lay on the floor. Wife will fill them with matching colored wax "crayon" if it bothers her. R Rudy -- Either you haven't been married very long, or there is a grammatical / logical problem in your last sentence -- I think you meant to write: "I will have to fill them with matching colored wax "crayon" if it bothers my wife." :-) |
I don't lay the spacers down flat. I stand them on end in the correct
orientation, use more of them, and they are easy to pluck out before grouting. They don't have to be at the corners to properly align the tiles if you use two per side. This way you can use them over and over again. Placing them after laying the tiles lets you squirm the tile to seat and level it to the others. I just finished grouting a bathroom this morning, and used a flexible 3" putty knife, along with a drywall coumpound tray, to force cuts of grout into the cracks to keep from scratching the marble tiles with the normal method. After a little setup time, a damp sponge was all that was needed to diagonally clean the grout lines. I tried this for the first time on this room, and I really liked the process and the results. RJ wrote in message news:8Plme.1041$rp.233@fed1read02... Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml |
Banty wrote:
In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... wrote: Hello, this one sounds obvious but I've already seen differences between what I read in books and what is common practice so I figured I'd ask. Getting ready to install porcelain floor tiles. We're going to use those little plastic spacers to establish grout lines. It clearly says on the package to remove the spacers prior to grouting. There is a tool especially made for removing these things. Installer (or perhaps soon to be ex-installer) says he plans on just leaving them in and grouting on top of them. This seems crazy to me. Is this commonly done? thanks for comments ml Not commonly done, no. It's been done before when using thick quarry tile but not a real good idea. I've removed floors that had them in place still. You don't any special tools. Just use a pair of needlenose pliers to yank'em before you grout. Do you remove vinyl sheet flooring before tiling? If so, how do you remove it from the floor? Banty If it's loose in several places or it's a perimeter glue-down product, remove it. I use a power scraper - Makita. It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty Anti-fracture. Slabs crack. A membrane can inhibit the crack transferring through the tile. Hydrostatic pressure and moisture? http://www.glaciernw.com/assets/resources/CIP28p.pdf |
Rudy -- Either you haven't been married very long, or there is a grammatical / logical problem in your last sentence -- I think you meant to write: "I will have to fill them with matching colored wax "crayon" if it bothers my wife." :-) Just had 18th Anniversary last week and actually, she will be doing it, if it needs doing. She's a hell of a worker. We just got thru shovelling/spreading 4 yards of roadbase 3/4" minus driveway gravel (~4 TONS) after dinner to get ready for our concrete driveway. We'll be doing the same with another 5 yards for the patio/hot tub slab at the back tomorrow. She also stained and "poly"-ed 1000 lin ft of vertical grain 1X6 Fir and painted another 1000 lin 1X6 MDF baseboard and all the walls in our new house. I get to put the Fir and MDF up but shes definitely the painter/spackler. R |
In article , G Henslee says...
Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... ::snip:: It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty Anti-fracture. Slabs crack. A membrane can inhibit the crack transferring through the tile. Hydrostatic pressure and moisture? http://www.glaciernw.com/assets/resources/CIP28p.pdf That's what I wondered if that's what you meant. Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), the tile is not on a concrete slab - it's on the floor above the basement. Banty |
Banty wrote:
In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... ::snip:: It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty Anti-fracture. Slabs crack. A membrane can inhibit the crack transferring through the tile. Hydrostatic pressure and moisture? http://www.glaciernw.com/assets/resources/CIP28p.pdf That's what I wondered if that's what you meant. Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), the tile is not on a concrete slab - it's on the floor above the basement. Banty Then you have a whole different set of conditions and issues to deal with. |
In article , G Henslee says...
Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... ::snip:: It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty Anti-fracture. Slabs crack. A membrane can inhibit the crack transferring through the tile. Hydrostatic pressure and moisture? http://www.glaciernw.com/assets/resources/CIP28p.pdf That's what I wondered if that's what you meant. Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), the tile is not on a concrete slab - it's on the floor above the basement. Banty Then you have a whole different set of conditions and issues to deal with. ::googling for original post in thread:: ....thought so. Nope, this discussion wasn't specific to tile over a slab floor. So - what issues affect tiling over glue-down vinyl on a second floor? Banty |
Banty wrote:
In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... Banty wrote: In article , G Henslee says... ::snip:: It's completely glued down (or at least a lot more than perimeter), good condition, farily new (installed in 1996). Still remove it? Banty Banty Based upon *your* desc. I wouldn't remove it. Remember, that vinyl sheet performs two services for you. Anti-fracture as well as a moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure. You should use a latex modified thinset. I'm not sure what you mean.. Anti-fracture meaning good for the tile which will go over, or an advantage I'll lose with tile (I know that..)? And where does being a "moisture inhibitor for hydrostatic pressure" come in? If it's relevant, this kitchen is over a heated bottom floor/basememt in a hillside ranch. Thanks, Banty Anti-fracture. Slabs crack. A membrane can inhibit the crack transferring through the tile. Hydrostatic pressure and moisture? http://www.glaciernw.com/assets/resources/CIP28p.pdf That's what I wondered if that's what you meant. Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), the tile is not on a concrete slab - it's on the floor above the basement. Banty Then you have a whole different set of conditions and issues to deal with. ::googling for original post in thread:: ...thought so. Nope, this discussion wasn't specific to tile over a slab floor. Nor was it not specific. What's your point? So - what issues affect tiling over glue-down vinyl on a second floor? Banty Proper sub-floor construction, substrate, issue of flex, etc. Check for some links I left in the Three-season porch deck tiling....... thread, and maybe others. Good luck. |
I have seen the leave in spaces will discolor the above grout with age.
Not sure why this happens, but the grout is consistantly miscolored at the corners Thankfully it wasn't my tile. I perfer the rubberly '+' shaped spacers that stay on top the tile with only one leg in. |
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