They do what they're told to do, they pick up what they're allowed to pick
up.

When I caught a possum in a county supplied trap, the animal control folks
said that they would come out and kill it and take the dead body. They
would not accept a trap with a live wild critter. (They supplied the traps
to capture CATS.)

So I told them to kill the animal. I was gone when they came but the
critter was gone and there was some sticky blood left on the trap.

"Ann" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 May 2004 16:56:07 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ann" wrote in message
news
What about keeping a dog in the
fenced area at night?

No! Bad idea! The dog will dig in the garden or crap all over it. Bad,
bad, bad.

Not if the dog is trained. When I lived in the city, where most houses
had postage-stamp back yards, the majority had at least a couple tomato
plants AND a dog.

Grrrr.....dogs.....the only good thing about them is that most of them are
dumb enough to stand still while you tape a pistol target to their
midsections.
Sincerely,
Dog Curmudgeon

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...


I would not use an electric fence with a 3 year old kid in the house.

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.

You have just won a virtual cocktail for noticing something nobody else did.
Place glass in CD-ROM drawer and hit:
CTRL-M (for real beer - Molson)
CTRL-B (for water - i.e.: Budweiser)
CTRL-J (for Jack Daniels)

"Anthony Aversano" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:25:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...
In article , Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus15189" wrote in
message
...
forgot to say, trapping and releasing raccoons would be educational
for my 3 year old son.

Is it an ego thing, or is there some other reason you don't want to
enlist
your local animal control people?

I hate spending money on various contractors. Hiring contractors is an
unbelievable waste of time and money.

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for
removing
an animal.

Where I live (a little north of Seattle, Washington) you have to pay for
this
service unless you can show they are injured or diseased. I had a family
of 4
destroying my ponds last year and was told to either live with it or pay
the
cities subcontractor $300 to remove them. And keep paying about $75 per
animal
after that as new ones arrived to fill the created void.

Tony

Yikes. Things have gotten out of hand in the big cities.

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

A Havahart trap is a good idea, too, but you might want to have your
local
animal control people assist. Raccoons can get weird....

EZ way to get rid of the coon is to take it (in the trap!) to your local
coon dog hunter. It'll help train his dogs to coons.

I'm admittedly not fully awake yet, but I can't seen to find "coon dog
hunter" in the yellow pages. Maybe under hobbies.....no. Furs?

"Ignoramus27199" wrote in message
...



I can second the recommendation for Premier. Their customer reps are
very helpful and knowledgable. I called when I was setting up fencing
for our goats planning on getting a fancy combination of electric twine,
HT wire, fiberglass line posts, metal corner t-posts and a solar-battery
energizer. After asking what I wanted the fencing for their rep
suggested electric netting, some plastic corner posts and an energizer
with 9v alkaline battery. Saved me a bunch of money and I've been very
happy with the system.
Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

You see, my spouse would never agree to it no matter what physics
based explanations I offer.

Although I know the electric fence would not be a problem, your wife's
opinion is understandable. The mother bear instinct is cool. I only wish
human mothers would behave like bear mothers right down to the gory details.
That would take care of SO many "people who should be eliminated", keeping
George Carlin's criteria in mind as I say that. Based on these criteria, I
can recall at least 3 idiots who would've had their faces & throats removed
by my wife, when she felt our son was endangered. Sigh....sadly, she's a
Unitarian. Too peaceful.

On Mon, 10 May 2004 23:20:45 -0700, Adam Russell wrote:

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will kill
you more than likely.

Static electricity _is_ DC. The power in lightning will be higher than
you get from rubbing your feet on the rug, because the current is higher,
but the voltage may very well be the same. It's all about joules (power over
time).

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b0a4f6d199ad699989713@localhost...
In article ,
says...

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09eda2ef2138ea98970e@localhost...
snip
Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?




Electricity is electricity. Lightning is static electricty, but I
wouldn't want to get hit with it.

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will
kill
you more than likely. Now that I think of it some, it may be that they
*do*
use static electricity for fences. Looked up electric fence on the
internet. What I read doesnt explicitely say static charge, but they are
talking about powering it with a low voltage battery so that does kind of
imply a short lived charge.




Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

On Tue, 11 May 2004 08:33:47 -0700, Adam Russell wrote:

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b0a4f6d199ad699989713@localhost...

Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

Disagree all you want, but he's right. It's a DC voltage that decreases
as it's discharged through a resistance (you), just like any other DC voltage.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

....which is also DC, just like a static charge or lightning, but
somewhat between the two.

"Adam Russell"
|
| Your static charge is DC.
|
| Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as
it
| is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.
|
| The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.
|
| This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

As a retired EE : DC means only direct current (as compares to alternating
current) it does not mean unchanging. (an over simplified example: If you
car has a volt meter watch it when the motor is off and when the motor is
running.)

I grew up on a farm, and as kids we grabbed the fence tons of times when we
thought it was off. It hurt like hell, but it didn't kill us. Just sent us
crying to mom.

In fact, I can remember (vividly, no less) one dusk when we were playing tag
across the pasture, and I practically garrotted myself on a wire gate that I
thought was open. Caught the wire (between barbs, thankfully) right under
the chin, and both feet went out in front of me.. *wham* "I don't
want to play, anymore."

--Goedjn

you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got imaginative.
Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?


The cattle fences that I grew up with sent very short pulses
about once a second, at several thousand volts, and some
really low amperage. And if you're getting zapped by
electricity, it's not static anymore...

On Tue, 11 May 2004 13:54:53 -0400, wrote:


I practically garrotted myself on a wire gate that I
thought was open. Caught the wire (between barbs, thankfully) right under
the chin, and both feet went out in front of me.. *wham* "I don't
want to play, anymore."

Heh. I did pretty much the same thing years ago when I was a brand-new,
shiny EMT. Responded to a car accident; the car had run off the road,
through a barbed wire fence, and overturned, scattering it's un-belted
occupants. Things were going really well in my getting to them, until
I encountered the part of the barbed wire fence which was still
intact. Nice scars, one on my upper arm, another on my chest. I didn't
mention it to anyone at the scene, or I would have got that year's award
at our annual party, for sure.

Fences, plus dark, plus more speed than visibility, are a bad combination.

Dave Hinz

In article ,
says...



Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.




No, DC means Direct Current as in flowing only in one direction.
Under your definition, batteries aren't DC because eventually they
go dead.

Bill

"Adam Russell" wrote in message ...
"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...
Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine what
would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the house and zap
each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static electricity shock
is
about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the surprise, no
damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped it against your
tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak one gives a little
tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild shock,
but
nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications online, so
guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v A/C @ 1 amp, the
output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the otherhand is
a
different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity is
completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a shock
from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction of a second.
I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind), but it is the brevity
that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of electrons the voltage falls to
zero.

Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless. I've played around with battery-powered circuits that work
by delivering pulses of electricity to the subject when the current
through a circuit containing an inductor is interrupted (for example,
the gag lighters that shock people work this way). Whatever current
is flowing through the inductor gets sent through the subject for a
short period of time. It's relatively safe because the peak amperage
is controlled. If you hook up a resistor in series with the subject,
the maximum current doesn't change, but the pulses get shorter. When
you do this, the pain falls off, but the response from your muscles
doesn't change as much. Eventually, especially if the contact area
between the electrodes and the skin is large, you can produce
involuntary muscle contractions with little or no pain.

Given that the heart is a muscle, I would think that a few seconds of
current would be better than a few milliseconds if the goal was to
produce pain without rendering any permanent harm. I could be wrong,
but if I had to guess, I'd say the reason static electricity isn't
harmful is because most of the voltage is across the air gap, not
across your body. Also, the charge is entirely on your skin, and most
is probably very close to the spot where you're about to touch
something, so practically no current is going through your heart.

Power out of your wall does not fall off. At all. That 120v will
deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the resistance of what you are powering and
only limited by your circuit breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in
the fusebox it could deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the
wires would get hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce
the amperage available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it
matters not whether it is DC or AC.

Surely it couldn't be very difficult to have a device of some sort in
the circuit to control the maximum current. At the very least,
couldn't he just put an appropriate fuse in the circuit, if there
wasn't one already?

Now as to the matter of electric fences, when I was a child my grandpa told
me to stay away from the electric fence surrounding the cow field. He said
it would kick me like a sledgehammer. He could have been pulling my leg,
but I imagine that anything meant to coerce a cow would hurt a human. OTOH,
a raccoon is not a cow. The question is open whether you could make a fence
with enough jolt to keep out racoons but not enough to hurt 3 year olds. I
personally doubt it.

There's almost one order of magnitude between the current needed to
cause pain and the current that's large enough to be dangerous. The
fact that the area of contact with the wire is small, and a three-year
old is larger than a racoon, ought to make the range of safety even
broader.

Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

But what do I tell customer service if the cocktail holder breaks!?!?


"Doug Kanter" pontificated wisely that:

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...


I would not use an electric fence with a 3 year old kid in the house.

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.

You have just won a virtual cocktail for noticing something nobody else did.
Place glass in CD-ROM drawer and hit:
CTRL-M (for real beer - Molson)
CTRL-B (for water - i.e.: Budweiser)
CTRL-J (for Jack Daniels)



Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

Ignoramus27199 pontificated wisely
that:

In article , rot13 wrote:

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.


I can second the recommendation for Premier. Their customer reps are
very helpful and knowledgable. I called when I was setting up fencing
for our goats planning on getting a fancy combination of electric twine,
HT wire, fiberglass line posts, metal corner t-posts and a solar-battery
energizer. After asking what I wanted the fencing for their rep
suggested electric netting, some plastic corner posts and an energizer
with 9v alkaline battery. Saved me a bunch of money and I've been very
happy with the system.

You see, my spouse would never agree to it no matter what physics
based explanations I offer.

I hear ya, but things do sometimes change. My wife would never agree to
any kind of gun around, until she chased a fox away from her hen house.
Then I discovered that our state laws were such that an air rifle was
the only practical solution.
Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

Advanced Priority wrote in message ...
Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

Oops ... but you know what I meant -- static electricity at around
2000 - 4000 volts, as was being discussed. Practically everything is
lethal if you get enough of it.

In article , Advanced Priority
wrote:

Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

How well I remember shuffling across the carpet & pointing my finger at my
sister's head, giggling until -- FLASH! -- both of us fell into fits of
tears. And that's why to this day I have but nine fingers & my sister went
blind & became bald for life.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity is
completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a shock
from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction of a
second.
I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind), but it is the
brevity
that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of electrons the voltage falls to
zero. Power out of your wall does not fall off. At all. That 120v will
deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the resistance of what you are powering
and
only limited by your circuit breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny
in
the fusebox it could deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that
the
wires would get hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce
the amperage available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it
matters not whether it is DC or AC.

Now as to the matter of electric fences, when I was a child my grandpa
told
me to stay away from the electric fence surrounding the cow field. He
said
it would kick me like a sledgehammer. He could have been pulling my leg,
but I imagine that anything meant to coerce a cow would hurt a human.
OTOH,
a raccoon is not a cow. The question is open whether you could make a
fence
with enough jolt to keep out racoons but not enough to hurt 3 year olds.
I
personally doubt it.

Most fence chargers work on pulses. You get zapped, but that's all it
is...a zap. You have plenty of time to let go before it sends another
pulse...and you tend to let go in a hurry.

A 3 year old would be fine with the fence...just like the cows...one zap and
they develop a healthy respect for it.

jena

"JMartin" wrote in message Most fence chargers work on pulses. You get
zapped, but that's all it
is...a zap. You have plenty of time to let go before it sends another
pulse...and you tend to let go in a hurry.


Very true unless you're like me. A number of years ago I kept a horse at a
neighboring property, the field surrounded by an electric fence about two
feet off the ground. In a small area with a lump in the ground, I would
step over the fence to take a shortcut to the barn. Once, in shorts my
inner thigh caught the fence. As I danced back and forth, getting each leg,
I finally jumped high enough to clear it. It hurt but more of a
slap/surprise kind of hurt. I must have looked so silly dancing over that
fence grin
Sue
Northern Wisconsin

paghat wrote:


How well I remember shuffling across the carpet & pointing my finger at my
sister's head, giggling until -- FLASH! -- both of us fell into fits of
tears. And that's why to this day I have but nine fingers & my sister went
blind & became bald for life.

-paghat the ratgirl

Did your sister become a lesbian, too?

"Adam Russell" wrote in
:


"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or
he'll actually educate himself on electric fences and not
subscribe to ignorant hysteria. I'll bet he's even touched his
tongue to a battery as a child, but somehow he thinks that should
have electrocuted him.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So
how much voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt
the child?
I know you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got
imaginative.



Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine
what would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the
house and zap each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static
electricity shock is about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the
surprise, no damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped
it against your tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak
one gives a little tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild
shock, but nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications
online, so guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v
A/C @ 1 amp, the output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the
otherhand is a different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity
is completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a
shock from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction
of a second. I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind),
but it is the brevity that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of
electrons the voltage falls to zero. Power out of your wall does not
fall off. At all. That 120v will deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the
resistance of what you are powering and only limited by your circuit
breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in the fusebox it could
deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the wires would get
hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce the amperage
available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it matters
not whether it is DC or AC.

As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V.

That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.) Now don't go sticking your finger in a socket or
something, thinking you'll be able to let go after a short time, because
you won't.

If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant.
(Does AC make it more diffult to remove your hand from an outlet? That
could be another reason, but I'm not too sure about it).

Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor. (Just because you usually
get DC power from batteries and AC power from an outlet doesn't mean they
can't be the other way around. It wouldn't be efficient, but you could
do it).

Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current. (Inside a block transformer, you may
also have a rectifier that converts AC to DC). You will also have
current losses from the conversion and needless to say, just because you
are on a 15A line, it doesn't mean the device or transformer will draw
the full 15A. The input and output ratings should be printed on the
transformer block. All other things being equal, the calculation above
is still missing a sqrt(2) since the source is AC (in addition to
conversion losses which I am guess could be 30%.)

The term "transformer electricity" should probably be reserved for
Autobots and Decepticons.

[rec.gardens]

Salty Thumb wrote in message .. .
"Adam Russell" wrote in
:


"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or
he'll actually educate himself on electric fences and not
subscribe to ignorant hysteria. I'll bet he's even touched his
tongue to a battery as a child, but somehow he thinks that should
have electrocuted him.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So
how much voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt
the child?
I know you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got
imaginative.



Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine
what would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the
house and zap each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static
electricity shock is about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the
surprise, no damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped
it against your tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak
one gives a little tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild
shock, but nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications
online, so guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v
A/C @ 1 amp, the output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the
otherhand is a different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity
is completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a
shock from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction
of a second. I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind),
but it is the brevity that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of
electrons the voltage falls to zero. Power out of your wall does not
fall off. At all. That 120v will deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the
resistance of what you are powering and only limited by your circuit
breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in the fusebox it could
deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the wires would get
hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce the amperage
available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it matters
not whether it is DC or AC.

As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V.

That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.) Now don't go sticking your finger in a socket or
something, thinking you'll be able to let go after a short time, because
you won't.

If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant.
(Does AC make it more diffult to remove your hand from an outlet? That
could be another reason, but I'm not too sure about it).

Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor. (Just because you usually
get DC power from batteries and AC power from an outlet doesn't mean they
can't be the other way around. It wouldn't be efficient, but you could
do it).

Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current. (Inside a block transformer, you may
also have a rectifier that converts AC to DC). You will also have
current losses from the conversion and needless to say, just because you
are on a 15A line, it doesn't mean the device or transformer will draw
the full 15A. The input and output ratings should be printed on the
transformer block. All other things being equal, the calculation above
is still missing a sqrt(2) since the source is AC (in addition to
conversion losses which I am guess could be 30%.)

The term "transformer electricity" should probably be reserved for
Autobots and Decepticons.

[rec.gardens]


GOTHE CHEAPY WAY

Go down to Walmart and buy yourself a few bucks worth of MOTH BALLS,
yes Moth Balls. and scatter them around and all your animals will stay
clear until they all evaporate in about a month then scatterer some
more. If you have youngsters they might think they are candy so take
that in mind.

Jack

Salty Thumb wrote:
... As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V...

probably much more. The breakdown field strength for air is about 25000
volts/inch. Look at the length of the sparks the Van de Graf generates.
Of course, the field strength from a sharp point (such as the end of a
strand of hair) drops off as r squared, so the local field could
generate a breakdown which could propagate.

As far as the current level goes, I have heard that it requires as
little as 0.01 amps to kill a person. This is a very small current, and
I suspect that it wouldn't kill an average person except in exceptional
circumstances. I know people who have experienced up to 0.05 amps (DC)
before reporting discomfort (they did survive to report no discomfort).

Small currents generally kill by inducing paralysis of various important
muscles, such as those responsible for breathing or blood circulation.

Large currents can kill by damaging muscles or nerves.


That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.)...


The voltage isn't really important if you can get the current up. Normal
skin resistance requires a fairly high voltage to overcome, but if you
implant an electrode below the skin into a region where bodily
electrolytes can conduct the current, you can probably electrocute
someone with 40 volts (as long as the current is high enough).


If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant...

As far as AC/DC is concerned, it really doesn't matter. For the relative
merits of AC and/or DC, refer to the discussions between Edison (DC
proponent) and Westinghouse (AC proponent). Westinghouse won, although
there were sections of New York City that were supplied with DC power up
until the late 20th century. The main reason that AC won out over DC was
that AC could be transmitted over large distances by raising the voltage
and lowering the current. The resistance of the wires is what causes the
transmission losses and lowering the current reduces the voltage drop.
Since the voltage is high, the voltage drop is less important, being a
smaller fraction of the total. Both of these reasons make AC power
transmission more efficient.



Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor...


Static electricity, although of short duration, is sufficient to fry
electronic chips, since the current is concentrated into a small area on
the chip. In that case, the relevant parameter is amperes per square cm.



...Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current...

Correct. The power (product of current and voltage) remains the same
(neglecting transformer heating).




I have not been following this thread, but suppose it to have been
started by someone recommending an electric fence transformer for
raccoon prevention. The electric fence transformer I used to have was
rated 0.01 amperes output. I measured the voltage at 1500 volts. The AC
voltage was continuously supplied as long as it was plugged in. Being
normally forgetful, I neglected to unplug the system several times and
did a little garden sparking. It was unpleasant, and not something I'd
like to do frequently, but I believe it was just enough to discourage
repetitions (and improve memory). Other electric fence systems are
pulsed, so that a single spike of high voltage is presented every second
or two. The time interval between pulses is quite enough to withdraw
one's hand or other portion of the anatomy that came in contact with the
wire.

tinacci wrote:

...GOTHE CHEAPY WAY

Go down to Walmart and buy yourself a few bucks worth of MOTH BALLS,
yes Moth Balls. and scatter them around and all your animals will stay
clear...


Tried it. Doesn't work well in the open, where the wind can remove the
smell.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Max" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote:


that's upsetting that they can climb.

They live in trees. They are also very good at opening gates and
latches. They can quickly learn to turn standard door handles. They

are

not too good at picking locks, but some primates can do that.

ahem.. cough [tap tap] THEY HAVE HANDS!!!

.max


They also have a sense of humor. While camping in the Catskills many years
ago, my wife & I watched as some knucklehead set up a screen house, and
inside it, two sets of collapsible plastic shelves onto which he placed what
appeared to be enough snacks for an army. Lots of chips, cookies, cereal,
etc. The ranger warned the dummy about wildlife, but I guess he decided the
ranger didn't know what he was talking about. Around 2:00 AM, there was lots
of crashing & interesting animal sounds. Two raccoons had bitten through the
screen and knocked over the shelves. When the guy got up the nerve to come
out of his tent, the creatures were still inside having a feast, while they
watched the guy run around outside the screen house yelling. The feast
continued for about an hour until the ranger finally came over and urged
them (with a stick) to go elsewhere. He then evicted the camper.


LOL at coons. When still in Illinois I had tossed a bunch of Halloween
suckers in the trash that the ants had gotten into. The next morning I
found a pile of sucker sticks in the yard! I laughed for days at the
mental picture of these coons sucking on suckers in the yard.

amy

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...

In article , Doug Kanter wrote:

Sharpen your spade and make a "slot" into the ground all along the

bottom of

the existing fence. Insert fence wire as deep as possible, and attach

the

I am sorry for my stupid question, but what is fence wire?


Galvanized wire screen that you buy in rolls. It's available with openings
of various sizes. It'll be obvious which size to get.



top of the wire to the chain link fence. This still leaves the top of

the

fence vulnerable though, and raccoons can definitely climb.

that's upsetting that they can climb.


It's not upsetting to the raccoons. :-)



A Havahart trap is a good idea, too, but you might want to have your

local

animal control people assist. Raccoons can get weird....

I can get weird too, I am not afraid of raccoons.


In order to release an animal from a Havahart trap, your hands will be right
ON the trap as you open the end. You didn't say whether you've seen raccoons
on your property during daylight hours, but if you have, it's assumed they
may be rabid. Animal control people may have equipment which allows them to
keep a little more distance during the release.


Animal control capturing a coon in the daytime is NOT going to release
it. It will be destroyed....unless someone is exposed...then it will be
destroyed and the head sent to the lab to test for rabies.

amy ex-animal control

Besides...if you have to "get weird" to keep from being bitten, it might
mean hurting the animal.



The issue is, are there so
many local raccoons that trapping them is a waste of time? Do they
migrate? For example, obviously, trapping birds is a waste of time
since they propagate everywhere. But, if I could trap, say, 3-5
raccoons, would it actually help?


Beats me. I lived in a semi-city neighborhood where we'd only see one or two
per year. No idea what your area is like. Take a walk, look for other
vegetable gardens, and knock on the owners' doors & ask them.


Another suggestion I've heard is to plant prickly stuff around the crops
that interest the raccoon. Zucchini and other squashes have abrasive

stems

that some raccoons won't step through. And, you didn't mention how far

your

fence is from the garden. If it's possible to plant shrubs that'll end

up

being 3-4' in diameter, and still leave room for YOU to work, you might
consider barberry. Nothing gets past that bush without severe

lacerations.

That's why birds hang out in them and laugh at the cats.

no space for that, unfortunately.


Too bad. It's fun to watch dogs crash into barberry bushes.

Anthony Aversano wrote:

On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:25:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...

In article , Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...

forgot to say, trapping and releasing raccoons would be educational
for my 3 year old son.

Is it an ego thing, or is there some other reason you don't want to

enlist

your local animal control people?

I hate spending money on various contractors. Hiring contractors is an
unbelievable waste of time and money.

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for removing
an animal.


Where I live (a little north of Seattle, Washington) you have to pay for this
service unless you can show they are injured or diseased. I had a family of 4
destroying my ponds last year and was told to either live with it or pay the
cities subcontractor $300 to remove them. And keep paying about $75 per animal
after that as new ones arrived to fill the created void.

Tony

THAT sucks! Ya'll should pay more taxes.

amy

Adam Russell wrote:

"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...

Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or he'll

actually

educate himself on electric fences and not subscribe to ignorant

hysteria.

I'll bet he's even touched his tongue to a battery as a child, but

somehow

he thinks that should have electrocuted him.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So how

much

voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt the child? I

know

you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got imaginative.



Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine what
would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the house and zap
each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static electricity shock

is

about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the surprise, no
damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped it against your
tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak one gives a little
tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild shock,

but

nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications online, so
guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v A/C @ 1 amp, the
output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the otherhand is

a

different story.


You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity is
completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a shock
from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction of a second.
I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind), but it is the brevity
that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of electrons the voltage falls to
zero. Power out of your wall does not fall off. At all. That 120v will
deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the resistance of what you are powering and
only limited by your circuit breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in
the fusebox it could deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the
wires would get hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce
the amperage available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it
matters not whether it is DC or AC.

Now as to the matter of electric fences, when I was a child my grandpa told
me to stay away from the electric fence surrounding the cow field. He said
it would kick me like a sledgehammer. He could have been pulling my leg,
but I imagine that anything meant to coerce a cow would hurt a human. OTOH,
a raccoon is not a cow. The question is open whether you could make a fence
with enough jolt to keep out racoons but not enough to hurt 3 year olds. I
personally doubt it.


The electic fence wouldn't have kicked you like a sledgehammer. I saw
more reaction from guys peeing on it than my blonde sister grabbing it
to see if it was alive. Incidentally, she was also the same one that
ALWAYS tested the batteries.....and she's alive and well.

amy

In article , Amy D
wrote:

You may speak for the animal control where you worked but you do not
speak for all animal control agencies. Our local control will release
the animal several miles from its capture point.

Dick



Animal control capturing a coon in the daytime is NOT going to release
it. It will be destroyed....unless someone is exposed...then it will be
destroyed and the head sent to the lab to test for rabies.

amy ex-animal control

Richard Cline wrote:

In article , Amy D
wrote:

You may speak for the animal control where you worked but you do not
speak for all animal control agencies. Our local control will release
the animal several miles from its capture point.

Dick


Are you telling me your animal control will release a racoon captured in
the daytime?

amy


Animal control capturing a coon in the daytime is NOT going to release
it. It will be destroyed....unless someone is exposed...then it will be
destroyed and the head sent to the lab to test for rabies.

amy ex-animal control

"Richard Cline" wrote

You may speak for the animal control where you worked but you do not
speak for all animal control agencies. Our local control will release
the animal several miles from its capture point.


How do you know this - for sure? I'm not saying that this may not be the
case somewhere but it sure would be the exception, plus being just plain
stupid. Several miles from the capture point may be in my back yard and I
(purely as an example) sure don't need any more coons who are into predation
'round these parts, plus the chance of importing various diseases such as
scabies, parvo, rabies, etc. If you have a problem - deal with it - don't
export it to another area for someone else to have to solve for you.

A retired game warden hunting buddy of mine used to get called out on road
injured deer and every time there were yuppies and/or children involved he
would tell them he was going to take the injured deer to the "deer
hospital." Until they left the scene...

Skip


Skip & Christy Hensler
THE ROCK GARDEN
Newport, WA
http://www.povn.com/rock/

"Amy D" wrote in message
...


In order to release an animal from a Havahart trap, your hands will be
right
ON the trap as you open the end. You didn't say whether you've seen
raccoons
on your property during daylight hours, but if you have, it's assumed
they
may be rabid. Animal control people may have equipment which allows them
to
keep a little more distance during the release.


Animal control capturing a coon in the daytime is NOT going to release
it. It will be destroyed....unless someone is exposed...then it will be
destroyed and the head sent to the lab to test for rabies.

Correct. I was mixing two ideas in too large of a bowl. :-)

Curiousity got the better of me ...

Safest is a battery-powered, pulsing (as opposed to continuous) electric
fence controller bearing Underwriters Laboratories label ANSI/UL69 (Electric
Rence Contollers) One town's regulations specified that the current pulse
a maximum of 60 times a minute with the duration of each pulse a max of
1/10 second and be 25 milliamps or less. This is on the high side; the
newer controllers have pulse duration around 1/1000 second. Voltages seem
to run in the 5K-7K range. The shorter pulse duration also has the
advantage of not heating dried vegetation to combustion temperature.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for
removing
an animal.

It's not unheard of. We had a baby raccoon trapped in our garage behind
pegboard last summer. The town wouldn't touch the situation and referred us
to a private contractor. Cost us $145 to have the guy take it out and
release it in our yard.

BTW, after seeing how pi$$ed off that animal was, there's no way I'd try to
release one from a trap myself. And this was a raccoon that was only about 3
months old. Better left to professionals.
--
JennP.

I'd have spent a dollar on letting the car idle for a half gallon of gas, or
so, then removed the carcass.....

Mark (just trying to save you $144 next time) Dunning

"JennP" wrote in message
news:4Sdrc.767$JC5.195590@attbi_s54...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for
removing
an animal.

It's not unheard of. We had a baby raccoon trapped in our garage behind
pegboard last summer. The town wouldn't touch the situation and referred
us
to a private contractor. Cost us $145 to have the guy take it out and
release it in our yard.

BTW, after seeing how pi$$ed off that animal was, there's no way I'd try
to
release one from a trap myself. And this was a raccoon that was only about
3
months old. Better left to professionals.
--
JennP.

On Sat, 22 May 2004 03:16:52 GMT, "mark dunning"
wrote:

I'd have spent a dollar on letting the car idle for a half gallon of gas, or
so, then removed the carcass.....

Mark (just trying to save you $144 next time) Dunning

reading in misc.rural.

fun part is that depending on how new the car is, that might not work.
since about 1995, the car computers have been smart enough to stop the
engine when the oxygen level falls below 16% or so...and with the
modern cat cons, that might not have the carbon monoxide level high
enough for more than a head ache.

ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

"charles krin" wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 22 May 2004 03:16:52 GMT, "mark dunning"
| wrote:
|
| I'd have spent a dollar on letting the car idle for a half gallon of gas,
or
| so, then removed the carcass.....
|
| Mark (just trying to save you $144 next time) Dunning
|
| reading in misc.rural.
|
| fun part is that depending on how new the car is, that might not work.
| since about 1995, the car computers have been smart enough to stop the
| engine when the oxygen level falls below 16% or so...and with the
| modern cat cons, that might not have the carbon monoxide level high
| enough for more than a head ache.

Actually the variation in O2 levels as controlled by the computer is not
that great. Regardless it is the blood's affinity for CO that is the danger
and CO levels way lower than can be minimally produced by an internal
combustion engine are sufficient to kill after prolonged exposure. The key
is time. I should also mention that CO is heavier than O2 so the atmosphere
at the bottom of the rat hole will be have increasingly concentrated CO
levels. If all else fails the critter will have one h*ll of a head ache.