Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

In article ,
said...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

The main risk is that if they built right up to the foundation you will
not be able to inspect it's soundness. That really has nothing to do with
having or not having a permit, but that would be my concern. Any decent
home inspector can tell you whether the job itself is sound or not.

"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

I'd check with the city. If the owner didn't get a permit - the finished
basement may not be up to city codes, i.e. city may require egress windows
for finished basements, etc.

Better to be safe than sorry...

My 2c,

Matty

Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or
in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing
to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very
expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away.
--
C.J.

Pull my pud to reply


"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

In article , said...
Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or
in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing
to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very
expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away.

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

Some areas may not require a permit to finish off an unfinished basement.
Check with the town offices before panicking.



--


Remove "zz" from e-mail address to direct reply.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:58:23 -0500, someone wrote:


That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

As a practical matter, I agree to the extent that it would be OK with
'the bank' as long as the illegally finished area is not being relied
upon to acheive the required value of the property. OTOH if the bank
thinks it is mortgaging a 4-bedroom 3 bath home, but one bedroom and
one bath are illegal in the basement, then they sure as hell WOULD
care, IF their appraiser was on the ball enough to catch it, which he
should, but often will not.

-v.

On 12 Nov 2003, Basha wrote:

You comments greatly appreciated.

I didn't sift through all of the sub-replies, just the top level.
In case nobody mentioned these things:

1) The need for "permits" varies in every single municipality
in the land. Some require a permit for everything, some have
a specific list of projects, some classify need based on
"changing the structural integrity..." or some similar wording.
Check with your muni, that's the ONLY safe way to answer that.

2) As others have pointed out, don't confuse permits with the
quality/safeness of the work. It may still be OK, you need
an inspection to tell you that.

3) That's a lot of living space, and you can almost bet that
it's not documented for tax assessment purposes. Count on
the taxes going WAY up after the cat is out of the bag.

HTH.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Sounds too much like what a certain relative of mine did...their new
house's basement and roof leak and rather than fight with the builder,
they finished the basement themselves, and covered the water damage
stains, etc. They are planning on selling without disclosure, and now
deny, even to family members who are well aware of all this, that it
ever happened. In some areas codes are not really enforced, but
lenders may feel otherwise about accepting this. It is up to you but
at least get an inspection. Good luck, hope you find a good house
soon.


(Basha) wrote in message om...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

--
The admission of ignorance is the first step on the road to knowledge.
The beginning of understanding is an open mind.
"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Several.

First off, everything was fine as long as anyone didn't bring it to the
attention of the authorities. Now that they know, they may investigate.
Were you to buy it, you would be the current owner, and would have to allow
inspectors access.

Yes, the risks is there. It may not be up to code. It may be unsafe either
structurally or electrically. It may need an escape system that meets code.

In short, I would not consider buying it until THE OWNER got and paid for
all the legal stuff to make the house legal. You could come back and sue
him for lack of disclosure, but you would spend even more money on lawyers
than it is worth.

You will have enough to do with fixing up. You don't need the hassle of
anything like this to contend with, too.

Steve

Thanks for all your comments.

The first step I am going to do today is going to the muncipal office
and enquire about this. I will also talk to one of the city
inspectors.

I will post the happenings.

Thanks again.

OK.
I went to the city office directly and talked to one of the inspectors
and few other guys in community development, construction and
engineering dept. They said, once the construction is done they are
not going to give any permit and they are not going to come to the
house to check it. They also said the previous owner completed the
basement and may not have reported to city to save some taxes. I asked
is part of the house "ILLEGAL". They said it is not called illegal but
improper, also said there are quiet a no of people who don't report
their enhancements to their houses which may involve adding a bathroom
or bedroom etc. The risk is whether they have done the proper electic
and plumbing work or not. I asked him how to ensure whether it is done
in a proper way. He told me it is very difficult to find out once it
is done. It may involve tearingup the sheets covering the electric and
plumbing work. He also advised me to ask the seller to put a $10k in
an escrow account which cover up the costs if anything happens in the
next 3 or 5 years. If nothing happens at the end of 3 or 5 years,
seller will get the money back.

Anyways, my realtor brought a market analysis of the houses in this
area (Plymouth, Minnesota) and we came to an amount which we can
offer. We offred the seller 5k more than the average selling price and
also I bear all the minor repairs in the house. The average price is
20k less than the seller's list price. Repairs in the house a One
of the closet door broke may need a replacement, all the sloset doors
are stick to the carpet and are difficult to open and they may need a
half inch cut at the bottom of the doors. Family room doesn't have the
the air intake, hot air comes from the furnace but there is no vent to
take the air from that room. It's a closed room. Back side of the
house some of the vinyl sheets came out of the wall. It needs a fix
and there are many other small things. Those I can do myself. (My
realtor said the total may cost around $3000). 2 days back we bid with
condition-asking the seller to put the money $10k in escrow account.
Seller rejected the bid asking $10k more and didn't like the condition
of keeping the money in escrow account.

That's what happend in the last week.

The house is 1994 built, split level completely finished (2260sft) in
Plymouth, Minnesota. (suburb of Minneapolis)

-Basha

On 17 Nov 2003 11:26:50 -0800, someone wrote:


... He also advised me to ask the seller to put a $10k in
an escrow account which cover up the costs if anything happens in the
next 3 or 5 years. If nothing happens at the end of 3 or 5 years,
seller will get the money back.

Shows you what happens when you take real estate advice from an
inspector.

Chances slim to none that any seller would agree to skip $10,000 for 3
to 5 years, based on the buyer not coming up with "ANYTHING" in that
time. What a crock of bull, you showed yourself to be a fool if you
tried to impose this under those circumstances.

(BTW, what did your bank think of the $10k escrow? Or didn't you ask
them yet.)

-v.

v wrote:

On 17 Nov 2003 11:26:50 -0800, someone wrote:

... He also advised me to ask the seller to put a $10k in
an escrow account which cover up the costs if anything happens in the
next 3 or 5 years. If nothing happens at the end of 3 or 5 years,
seller will get the money back.

Shows you what happens when you take real estate advice from an
inspector.

Chances slim to none that any seller would agree to skip $10,000 for 3
to 5 years, based on the buyer not coming up with "ANYTHING" in that
time. What a crock of bull, you showed yourself to be a fool if you
tried to impose this under those circumstances.

You're just full of yourself aren't you? It must be an awesome task to
be omniscient. "The seller won't do this". "The seller won't agree to
that". You should write some books to share your amazing grasp on human
behaviour.

Just some friendly advice:

Real estate people don't give reliable estimates of what repairs will cost.
Especially when you are the buyer, and the recipient of these estimates.
It's not their area of expertise, really, but they do have ample motivation
to answer those questions and smooth things over. $3000 may cover it, maybe
only if done poorly by a very low quality contractor. It may not even cover
it then. Also, asking a seller to throw $10k in escrow against unknown
problems is pretty wishful thinking - think about it, given reversed roles,
would you be willing to do it? There's always someone, somewhere, who will
buy as is.

The bottom line is that any house is a risk. Even one unmodified by the
owner, in apparently good shape could have killer black mold hanging around
somewhere waiting to bloom. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to cover every
liability. In the end, you have to seek trusted advice about what real
problems the house has, use your own eyes, and make a decision. Find or hire
an independant handyman, and pay to have him estimate the work that needs to
be done - then you know, and you have a somewhat documented case for
adjusting the price to cover repairs. Also, the handyman/contractor's advice
about the house would be a valuable addition to the inspector's. Inspector's
are good for checking some major things, and certain safety things, but they
miss some very obvious things you will end up having to fix.

Just remember, when you are the buyer, and the agent says "Oh, that? That's
no problem!" they really mean "Oh, that? That's no problem....for me!"


"Basha" wrote in message
m...
OK.
I went to the city office directly and talked to one of the inspectors
and few other guys in community development, construction and
engineering dept. They said, once the construction is done they are
not going to give any permit and they are not going to come to the
house to check it. They also said the previous owner completed the
basement and may not have reported to city to save some taxes. I asked
is part of the house "ILLEGAL". They said it is not called illegal but
improper, also said there are quiet a no of people who don't report
their enhancements to their houses which may involve adding a bathroom
or bedroom etc. The risk is whether they have done the proper electic
and plumbing work or not. I asked him how to ensure whether it is done
in a proper way. He told me it is very difficult to find out once it
is done. It may involve tearingup the sheets covering the electric and
plumbing work. He also advised me to ask the seller to put a $10k in
an escrow account which cover up the costs if anything happens in the
next 3 or 5 years. If nothing happens at the end of 3 or 5 years,
seller will get the money back.

Anyways, my realtor brought a market analysis of the houses in this
area (Plymouth, Minnesota) and we came to an amount which we can
offer. We offred the seller 5k more than the average selling price and
also I bear all the minor repairs in the house. The average price is
20k less than the seller's list price. Repairs in the house a One
of the closet door broke may need a replacement, all the sloset doors
are stick to the carpet and are difficult to open and they may need a
half inch cut at the bottom of the doors. Family room doesn't have the
the air intake, hot air comes from the furnace but there is no vent to
take the air from that room. It's a closed room. Back side of the
house some of the vinyl sheets came out of the wall. It needs a fix
and there are many other small things. Those I can do myself. (My
realtor said the total may cost around $3000). 2 days back we bid with
condition-asking the seller to put the money $10k in escrow account.
Seller rejected the bid asking $10k more and didn't like the condition
of keeping the money in escrow account.

That's what happend in the last week.

The house is 1994 built, split level completely finished (2260sft) in
Plymouth, Minnesota. (suburb of Minneapolis)

-Basha

Hi,
WOW! This thread drags on so LONG. As a seller, if he did not hide
anything from buyer, he did his job. As a buyer, if you want to buy
after collecting all the info and inspection of the house, just make
a conditional offer. Then you two negotiate, if it does not work out,
go find another house. Or build a house to your heart's content like
I did. That is not the only house you can buy. If you like that house
SO much, then by all means, buy it and take the consequences.
Let's move on.
Tony

Steve wrote:

Just some friendly advice:

Real estate people don't give reliable estimates of what repairs will cost.
Especially when you are the buyer, and the recipient of these estimates.
It's not their area of expertise, really, but they do have ample motivation
to answer those questions and smooth things over. $3000 may cover it, maybe
only if done poorly by a very low quality contractor. It may not even cover
it then. Also, asking a seller to throw $10k in escrow against unknown
problems is pretty wishful thinking - think about it, given reversed roles,
would you be willing to do it? There's always someone, somewhere, who will
buy as is.

The bottom line is that any house is a risk. Even one unmodified by the
owner, in apparently good shape could have killer black mold hanging around
somewhere waiting to bloom. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to cover every
liability. In the end, you have to seek trusted advice about what real
problems the house has, use your own eyes, and make a decision. Find or hire
an independant handyman, and pay to have him estimate the work that needs to
be done - then you know, and you have a somewhat documented case for
adjusting the price to cover repairs. Also, the handyman/contractor's advice
about the house would be a valuable addition to the inspector's. Inspector's
are good for checking some major things, and certain safety things, but they
miss some very obvious things you will end up having to fix.

Just remember, when you are the buyer, and the agent says "Oh, that? That's
no problem!" they really mean "Oh, that? That's no problem....for me!"


"Basha" wrote in message
m...

OK.
I went to the city office directly and talked to one of the inspectors
and few other guys in community development, construction and
engineering dept. They said, once the construction is done they are
not going to give any permit and they are not going to come to the
house to check it. They also said the previous owner completed the
basement and may not have reported to city to save some taxes. I asked
is part of the house "ILLEGAL". They said it is not called illegal but
improper, also said there are quiet a no of people who don't report
their enhancements to their houses which may involve adding a bathroom
or bedroom etc. The risk is whether they have done the proper electic
and plumbing work or not. I asked him how to ensure whether it is done
in a proper way. He told me it is very difficult to find out once it
is done. It may involve tearingup the sheets covering the electric and
plumbing work. He also advised me to ask the seller to put a $10k in
an escrow account which cover up the costs if anything happens in the
next 3 or 5 years. If nothing happens at the end of 3 or 5 years,
seller will get the money back.

Anyways, my realtor brought a market analysis of the houses in this
area (Plymouth, Minnesota) and we came to an amount which we can
offer. We offred the seller 5k more than the average selling price and
also I bear all the minor repairs in the house. The average price is
20k less than the seller's list price. Repairs in the house a One
of the closet door broke may need a replacement, all the sloset doors
are stick to the carpet and are difficult to open and they may need a
half inch cut at the bottom of the doors. Family room doesn't have the
the air intake, hot air comes from the furnace but there is no vent to
take the air from that room. It's a closed room. Back side of the
house some of the vinyl sheets came out of the wall. It needs a fix
and there are many other small things. Those I can do myself. (My
realtor said the total may cost around $3000). 2 days back we bid with
condition-asking the seller to put the money $10k in escrow account.
Seller rejected the bid asking $10k more and didn't like the condition
of keeping the money in escrow account.

That's what happend in the last week.

The house is 1994 built, split level completely finished (2260sft) in
Plymouth, Minnesota. (suburb of Minneapolis)

-Basha

Speaking from experience:
My current house had a third bedroom added and a garage finished into living
space and a new garage built without permits (at least that I can tell). All
done by a DIY'er. It even made it into a national magazine as a model
project. THings that were done wrong: Grade raised above the top of
foundation, Hot and Nuetral reversed in the garage refinish, Skylights
installed wrong, Bay windows installed wrong, THe upgrage to 100 amp service
did not upgrade the wire leading to the house (so it burnt out when I turned
the AC on), Roof flashing installed wrong, septic tank sized for a 2 bedroom
house, high effiency furnace with no flue liner, lack of GFI's, radiant
heating system incorrectly installed. I could go on but I'm too busy
scratching my head on why some things were done.

Don't get me wrong, I love my house and am slowly correcting things but the
home inspection only caught 2 of the issues. Proper permits and inspections
would have found most of them. Flags should go up if the work was done by a
DIY'er and a more thorough inspection performed. My bank did not even care
if there were permits for past work.

"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Basha wrote:

Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

Having just sold and bought a house, the buyer pays for any inspection that
he wants. The seller's obligation is to disclose truthfully what he knows
about the property.

At least around here that is the how it is done.
--
Ron
Port Dover Ontario

Ron wrote:

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

Having just sold and bought a house, the buyer pays for any inspection that
he wants. The seller's obligation is to disclose truthfully what he knows
about the property.

At least around here that is the how it is done.

If finishing the basement requires a permit and the seller did so
without one then what they have done is ILLEGAL. This could create a
mess for the buyer. In a situation like this it should be up to the
seller to prove that the improvements were done safely.

In article , C G
said...
Ron wrote:

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Having just sold and bought a house, the buyer pays for any inspection that
he wants. The seller's obligation is to disclose truthfully what he knows
about the property.

At least around here that is the how it is done.

If finishing the basement requires a permit and the seller did so
without one then what they have done is ILLEGAL. This could create a
mess for the buyer. In a situation like this it should be up to the
seller to prove that the improvements were done safely.

It may be against the town's regulations, but it is hardly "ILLEGAL."
It's about as illegal as speeding.

"Brad" wrote in message
news:MPG.1a1f43b2ac83370d98b9a2@news...
In article , C G
said...
Ron wrote:

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if
there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you
close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out
by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems
uncovered.

Having just sold and bought a house, the buyer pays for any inspection
that
he wants. The seller's obligation is to disclose truthfully what he
knows
about the property.

At least around here that is the how it is done.

If finishing the basement requires a permit and the seller did so
without one then what they have done is ILLEGAL. This could create a
mess for the buyer. In a situation like this it should be up to the
seller to prove that the improvements were done safely.

It may be against the town's regulations, but it is hardly "ILLEGAL."
It's about as illegal as speeding.


Actually, IF work was done, that required proper permits, and they were NOT
pulled, then, the local jurisdiction CAN have the work removed....fines will
be issued in the least...here it is twice the original amount.
IF the work was done by a non licenced person, in the event that a licenced
person was required to do it, and no permits (of course) pulled, then the
person that actually did the work can be hit with a felony charge, and jail
time.
Happens ALL the time in areas that follow the law...particularly here...in
his particular area, it might not be the case.

Brad wrote:
It may be against the town's regulations, but it is hardly "ILLEGAL."
It's about as illegal as speeding.

I'd love to be in the courtroom when you try to use that kind of
argument.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:56:53 -0500, "Ron" wrote:


Having just sold and bought a house, the buyer pays for any inspection that
he wants. The seller's obligation is to disclose truthfully what he knows
about the property.

Apparently it is more than just a matter of "home inspection" in this
case considerable construction modification were made to the property
without pulling appropriate permits and having the work inspected by
the appropriate code enforcement authorities - this is something that
the seller should be expected to resolve before settlement and the
closing on the property at the time of the sale!

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:06 GMT, someone wrote:


I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.
And after he has to pay thos big fines and compliance costs, he will
now want more for the house since the addition is now legal!

(Or, the city makes him tear it out; did the buyer WANT those
features? Just shot himself in the foot!)

-v.

v wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:06 GMT, someone wrote:

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.

How do you know what the seller will or will not agree to? The seller
has put himself in a very bad negotiating position by making unpermitted
improvements to his house. Who said anything about turning him into the
city?

And after he has to pay thos big fines and compliance costs, he will
now want more for the house since the addition is now legal!

All based on your incorrect assumption that the city found out.


(Or, the city makes him tear it out; did the buyer WANT those
features? Just shot himself in the foot!)

Might be better than buying a house with shoddy, unsafe modifications.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:21:00 GMT, someone wrote:


I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.

How do you know what the seller will or will not agree to?

Have you bought many properties where the Seller agreed to pay for
*any* problems that turned up? I have been buying and selling for
over 20 years and it just doesn't happen frequently enought to be a
realistic suggestion. (I've never seen it happen at all, but in then
infinity of the net, am leaving a way out.)

Sure the Buyer can have an inspection. But the Seller is HIGHLY
UNLIKELY TO THE POINT OF IT BEING RIDICULOUS TO EVEN WASTE YOUR TIME
ASKING, to agree to fix "any" problem found. Buyer can show the
Seller the problems and ask, or even get an agreement that (say) the
first $1,000 in repairs is covered, but rational sellers will not
agree to open ended clauses that encourage the Buyer to try to get a
free renovation out of the sale. And if you ask for unreasonable
stuff, you are likely to **** off the Seller and get thrown out of the
deal and NOT get any concessions.

And don't say how do I know the Seller won't NEGOTIATE, SURE he
probably WILL "negotiate", but that is not the same as agreeing to
your ridiculous terms. Whatever makes you think he WILL agree? And
DON'T say there is no harm in asking, there certainly is, if you knew
anything about negotiation.


-v.

In article ,
said...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:21:00 GMT, someone wrote:


I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.

How do you know what the seller will or will not agree to?

Have you bought many properties where the Seller agreed to pay for
*any* problems that turned up? I have been buying and selling for
over 20 years and it just doesn't happen frequently enought to be a
realistic suggestion. (I've never seen it happen at all, but in then
infinity of the net, am leaving a way out.)

Septic and wells are the main exceptions to that rule. If a septic or
well fails inspection the seller has to fix or replace it and will
typically not get a penny more on the market for the house. It happened
to me. I never understood why the market worked that way because if I'm
comparing two similar septic houses, the age of the systems is a big
factor for me.

v wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:21:00 GMT, someone wrote:

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.

How do you know what the seller will or will not agree to?

Have you bought many properties where the Seller agreed to pay for
*any* problems that turned up? I have been buying and selling for
over 20 years and it just doesn't happen frequently enought to be a
realistic suggestion. (I've never seen it happen at all, but in then
infinity of the net, am leaving a way out.)

Yes, I have. If there is a problem that needs to be fixed the seller is
going to have to either pay for it, lower the price, or tell the buyer
"no deal".


Sure the Buyer can have an inspection. But the Seller is HIGHLY
UNLIKELY TO THE POINT OF IT BEING RIDICULOUS TO EVEN WASTE YOUR TIME
ASKING, to agree to fix "any" problem found. Buyer can show the
Seller the problems and ask, or even get an agreement that (say) the
first $1,000 in repairs is covered, but rational sellers will not
agree to open ended clauses that encourage the Buyer to try to get a
free renovation out of the sale. And if you ask for unreasonable
stuff, you are likely to **** off the Seller and get thrown out of the
deal and NOT get any concessions.

The trouble with this seller is that he did something in violation of
local building regs. The buyer in this case has him by the balls.


And don't say how do I know the Seller won't NEGOTIATE, SURE he
probably WILL "negotiate", but that is not the same as agreeing to
your ridiculous terms. Whatever makes you think he WILL agree? And
DON'T say there is no harm in asking, there certainly is, if you knew
anything about negotiation.

Are you finished arguing with yourself? I never said he would agree.
However, since he's in a pretty difficult situation, the odds are good
he would.

I agree with V. If you turn the seller into the city he will hate you and
probably find a way not to sell you the house. But if it's important to you
to get everything aboveboard then you will have to take the chance and see
what happens. The bank that inspects the house may require the permits
anyway. However, they may overlook the basement. It all depends.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:06 GMT, someone wrote:


I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

Then he will never buy this house. The seller will not agree to those
condition, PLUS will hate his guts for turning him in to the city.
And after he has to pay thos big fines and compliance costs, he will
now want more for the house since the addition is now legal!

(Or, the city makes him tear it out; did the buyer WANT those
features? Just shot himself in the foot!)

-v.

Usually if you pullout the stove and sink the banks' inspector will overlook
the basement's lack of permit. I would see what happens.
"C G" wrote in message
.. .
Basha wrote:

Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

What are you talking about?

Houseslave wrote:

Usually if you pullout the stove and sink the banks' inspector will overlook
the basement's lack of permit. I would see what happens.
"C G" wrote in message
.. .
Basha wrote:

Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

I would contact the local building inspection department to see if there
is any way to have it inspected after the fact. If there is, insist
that the seller do this, and correct any violations, before you close.
If not, insist that the seller pay to have the basement checked out by a
qualified building inspector and pay for any safety problems uncovered.

Chuck

The only party that is concerned with all the permits is the buyer and the
buyer's bank. If the bank doesn't ask for the permits then the buyer has to
make a deciscion whether or not they care. Many banks will tell you to
cover up the stove so they can give the OK for the mortgage.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:31:25 GMT, "Houseslave"
wrote:

The only party that is concerned with all the permits is the buyer and the
buyer's bank. If the bank doesn't ask for the permits then the buyer has to
make a deciscion whether or not they care. Many banks will tell you to
cover up the stove so they can give the OK for the mortgage.


Maybe in the rural slum where you have your hovel, but you can't get a
C.O. without everything being up to code or grand fathered here!

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:33:25 GMT, "Houseslave"
wrote:

Usually if you pullout the stove and sink the banks' inspector will overlook
the basement's lack of permit.



What sink and stove?

If you try to sell a house without a sink in my area you would never
get a loan and if you tried that without a stove where I came from you
would never get a c.o.!

(Basha) wrote in message om...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?


Risk in what sense?

Certainly there is a risk that the basement does not meet code, but
this is probably fixable.

With finished basements there is always a risk that your basement
might someday flood, so that's something I would consider and weigh.

There is a risk that your property tax will go up.

There is a risk that you may overestimate the value of having a
finsihed basement when you make your offer. This would be my primary
concern, because it's not something you can undo.

From a financial perspective, I would be careful about that last risk
when making my offer. I just bought a house with a finished basement
(there was a permit and everything passed code, so I'm not worried
about that part). For me and my needs, it adds substantially to the
usable square footage of the home (two "bedrooms" and a large full
bath), extra sq footage I couldn't afford otherwise.

The way it was designed, you don't get the impression you are in a
finished basement. Everything has been finished very nicely with the
same quality of materials in the rest of the house so it doesn't
"feel" sub-par. Plus the way the stairs are configured, it flows
nicely with the rest of the house and doesn't make you feel you're
entering a basement at all.

However, it was very tempting upon initial viewing to consider these
extra bedrooms and make a bid as if it was a 4-bedroom house, not a
2-bedroom house with two "bonus" basement rooms that *might* be used
as bedrooms (or may someday flood and be completely unusable). I was
very careful in determining what I wanted to offer. I did not want to
make the mistake of comparing the value of this house to a true
4-bedroom. I compared it instead to a 2-bedroom, and added a little
extra for the fact that it had a nicely finished basement. This was
exactly how the assessor ended up looking at it, too.

Incidentally, it was advertised by the realtor as a 4 bedroom, but
when I saw these two bedrooms, I politely corrected her on that.

I feel sorry for my neighbors who didn't think it through the same way
I did; they ended up, IMHO, grossly overpaying for their property. Oh
well... I suppose that ultimately when it comes time to sell, I may
luck out and find someone willing to make that mistake, too.

Buyer should also be careful when assessing the value of finished
attic space.

jen

In article ,
said...
Buyer should also be careful when assessing the value of finished
attic space.

Attic space is typically better than basement space because it isn't below
ground. As long as the place is insulater properly and isn't a sauna in
the summer and a freezer in the winter it is no different than an upstairs
room (other than the extra flight of stairs).