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#1
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
Hello!
We very recently purchased a 30 year old home, with what turns out to be a completely failed 25-yr old Culligan water softener and what appears to be a "disadvantaged", 15-yr old Culligan Iron Filter. Our main concern initially was a water pressure problem which was easily resolved by bypassing the iron filter. We later discovered that the softener was not using any salt, and was completely inneffective. We haven't had our water independently tested, but we have had a few separate tests that are mostly consistent with each other: Well water 23 grains of hardness 1.5 - 2.5 ppm of iron (independent - culligan) 300 (somethings) of dissolved solids We've had a couple of people come out: A local independent water softener company came out, tested our water, and suggested a Osmonics softener, installed for ~$900. The brochures make a point of saying they use Autotrol valves, which seem to be common, so servicing the unit should be no problem in the future. He advised that the softener should be able to handle the amount of iron in the water, but if we wanted a new iron filter he could sell us one for $1700. There was no pressure to go with that immediately, however. The next day, the local Culligan salesperson came out and ran a battery of tests on our water (all the while looking at our existing equipment, shaking his head in disbelief) and recommended that we replace the water softener with a Culligan unit ($1499) and either do a major overhaul on the current iron filter ($500, not guaranteed to fix the pressure issues) or buy a new iron filter for $1900. He said that anyone who told us that their softener could handle that level of iron was lying to us and wouldn't stand behind their products when the unit failed in a few months. So, who's telling the truth? The indepdendent dealer has been around for decades, several generations. My grandparents have a conditioner (on city water) from them and have had no problems with them, so I am inclined to trust them. I'd appreciate any suggestions on these subjects. Thanks! Ben |
#2
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
"Ben Sandee" wrote Hello! We very recently purchased a 30 year old home, with what turns out to be a completely failed 25-yr old Culligan water softener and what appears to be a "disadvantaged", 15-yr old Culligan Iron Filter. Our main concern initially was a water pressure problem which was easily resolved by bypassing the iron filter. We later discovered that the softener was not using any salt, and was completely inneffective. We haven't had our water independently tested, but we have had a few separate tests that are mostly consistent with each other: Well water 23 grains of hardness 1.5 - 2.5 ppm of iron (independent - culligan) 300 (somethings) of dissolved solids We've had a couple of people come out: A local independent water softener company came out, tested our water, and suggested a Osmonics softener, installed for ~$900. The brochures make a point of saying they use Autotrol valves, which seem to be common, so servicing the unit should be no problem in the future. He advised that the softener should be able to handle the amount of iron in the water, but if we wanted a new iron filter he could sell us one for $1700. There was no pressure to go with that immediately, however. The next day, the local Culligan salesperson came out and ran a battery of tests on our water (all the while looking at our existing equipment, shaking his head in disbelief) and recommended that we replace the water softener with a Culligan unit ($1499) and either do a major overhaul on the current iron filter ($500, not guaranteed to fix the pressure issues) or buy a new iron filter for $1900. He said that anyone who told us that their softener could handle that level of iron was lying to us and wouldn't stand behind their products when the unit failed in a few months. So, who's telling the truth? The indepdendent dealer has been around for decades, several generations. My grandparents have a conditioner (on city water) from them and have had no problems with them, so I am inclined to trust them. I'd appreciate any suggestions on these subjects. Thanks! Ben If you have 2.5 ppm of iron any softener used will have to be able to deal with it for the long run or the resin will fail. Many softeners that are built for that amount of iron would work for average residential water volume; 3-4 people and no additional treated water usage but... the pH is important. High pH makes ion exchange less likely to work over long time frames than lower pH; say less than 7.2 pH. Autotrol has good controls but, Fleck is better on dirty iron laden water. Fleck has one moving part in the water stream while Autotrol has 6-7 flapper valves and long porting that if loaded up with rust (which will happen with your iron levels) are difficult to clean. I usually don't suggest replacing equipment that is capable of being rebuilt, which both controls on your present units may be but... the brand you have is not conducive to being easily rebuilt and rebeded with new resin and mineral. And they want too much! They don't use industry standard opening tanks (2.5" x 8 thread/inch), they use 3/4" fittings with even smaller holes in their inlet diverter and distributor tube. Although you may have their original Fleck Controls 2500 based valves which are easily rebuilt with a piston and seal kit. They are very good controls. But you'd still have the old tanks. As you see the prices from the Water Guy folks are much higher than you have to pay an independent for equipment that is not proprietary and is as good and IMO better than theirs. And if you want to save more money and still have many places to get service and/or parts if needed, buy it over the internet and install it yourself. I and others sell over the 'net and a few of us offer personal support during installation and setup while saving our customers hundreds of dollars per piece. As an example I can do at least $300 better than the price you have for the Autotrol based softener; although I don't know the capacity he quoted. I'd need the number of people in your household and any additional treated water you use or his capacity or the size of the tank he'd use. That's a UPS delivered price with standard additions that he might offer as options and charge more for. And yes, you wouldn't need the iron filter as long as your iron is not over 5 ppm and is all clear water iron (as drawn, no discolored water) and faithfully followed my instructions as to how to maintain the softener. E-mail me if you want a quote. Gary Quality Water Associates |
#3
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
"Bill Seurer" Bill_AT_seurer.net wrote Ben Sandee wrote: ...He said that anyone who told us that their softener could handle that level of iron was lying to us and wouldn't stand behind their products when the unit failed in a few months. ... I learned the hard way not to skimp on the iron filtering. I found replacement iron filters that fit our system and were a lot cheaper. The filter size (xx microns) was larger on the replacements but they seemed to work OK. A year later our softener failed and (ah hem) the guy who fixed it politely pointed out to me all the iron that had gunked stuff up. So now I use the better filters and all has been well. The water is visibly clearer too. Bill, hes talking about a backwashed iron filter not disposable sediment cartridges. But how do you filter ferrous iron with them? You'll be much farther ahead with a periodic resin cleaner than sediment prefiltration. Gary Quality Water Associates |
#4
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
Gary Slusser wrote:
Bill, hes talking about a backwashed iron filter not disposable sediment cartridges. OK. But how do you filter ferrous iron with them? One of those spiffy magnetic water treatment systems! Not only will it fix the iron problem BUT his cancer fears are gone and his cats won't cough up fur balls any more. |
#5
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
"Bill Seurer" Bill_AT_seurer.net wrote Gary Slusser wrote: Bill, hes talking about a backwashed iron filter not disposable sediment cartridges. OK. But how do you filter ferrous iron with them? One of those spiffy magnetic water treatment systems! Not only will it fix the iron problem BUT his cancer fears are gone and his cats won't cough up fur balls any more. Now that's good. LOL |
#6
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
"Ben Sandee" wrote Gary, Thanks for the great information. I have a few follow-up questions that you may be able to answer: Gary Slusser wrote: If you have 2.5 ppm of iron any softener used will have to be able to deal with it for the long run or the resin will fail. Many softeners that are built for that amount of iron would work for average residential water volume; 3-4 people and no additional treated water usage but... the pH is important. High pH makes ion exchange less likely to work over long time frames than lower pH; say less than 7.2 pH. Any suggestions on how to get an unbiased test of our water (hardness, iron and PH)? Are the water test kits at home improvement stores (i.e. Home Depot) reliable for this sort of situation or do we need to send our water out to the lab? None of our quotes have thus far tested the PH of the water. You should be able to have any dealer, Sears or a lab test it. The test kits you get at some stores are not as good as a dealer or lab. I question anyone doing water tests to troubleshoot a softener and how it's working without doing a pH test. I usually don't suggest replacing equipment that is capable of being rebuilt, which both controls on your present units may be but... the brand you have is not conducive to being easily rebuilt and rebeded with new resin and mineral. And they want too much! They don't use industry standard opening tanks (2.5" x 8 thread/inch), they use 3/4" fittings with even smaller holes in their inlet diverter and distributor tube. Although you may have their original Fleck Controls 2500 based valves which are easily rebuilt with a piston and seal kit. They are very good controls. But you'd still have the old tanks. Yes, I've been reading the archives of this group and it seems clear to me that Culligan is something *I* want to steer clear of because I don't like having my choices limited in the long term. If I were rich and lazy I might just go with Culligan but unfortunately for me I'm only one of those (I'll let you guess which one). And yes, you wouldn't need the iron filter as long as your iron is not over 5 ppm and is all clear water iron (as drawn, no discolored water) and faithfully followed my instructions as to how to maintain the softener. The water isn't discolored -- it looks clear in a glass but if you spray it into the air with a hose in sunlight you can see a slight red/brown tint to the water. Is this clear "as drawn"? That could be the sunlight. Draw some in a clear smooth glass and hold it up to light or a window. As long as it is clear it's good. If it discolors after a few minutes that means it will be fine too. So, with the water test results, I'd also need to know the number of people in the house. Gary Quality Water Associates Thanks again! Ben |
#7
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
Ben Sandee wrote:
So, who's telling the truth? The indepdendent dealer has been around for decades, several generations. My grandparents have a conditioner (on city water) from them and have had no problems with them, so I am inclined to trust them. I'd appreciate any suggestions on these subjects. Both options sound absurdly expensive. You have an existing setup, so plumbing connections should not be an issue. Go to Sears and buy a decent unit on sale for $500 and install it yourself... The concept of replacing the head when it wears out sounds bogus to me. Chances are the resin tank will require changing at the same time, so you'd be paying more than replacing the entire unit again. A decent quality single tank system should last for 15-20 years given your level of hardness and number of people in the house. Not worth investing $1000s of dollars. |
#8
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Water softener and iron filter sanity check
"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote Ben Sandee wrote: So, who's telling the truth? The indepdendent dealer has been around for decades, several generations. My grandparents have a conditioner (on city water) from them and have had no problems with them, so I am inclined to trust them. I'd appreciate any suggestions on these subjects. Both options sound absurdly expensive. You have an existing setup, so plumbing connections should not be an issue. Go to Sears and buy a decent unit on sale for $500 and install it yourself... The concept of replacing the head when it wears out sounds bogus to me. Chances are the resin tank will require changing at the same time, so you'd be paying more than replacing the entire unit again. A decent quality single tank system should last for 15-20 years given your level of hardness and number of people in the house. Not worth investing $1000s of dollars. I think you need to do some research on the life span of the brand you're suggesting he use on private well water. My experience says it's about 4-6 years with very expensive service call and parts charges in between. Not counting the months of aggravation until it is fixed and eventually replaced. I've replaced many of them, more in the last few years, in my 15 years as a water treatment dealer. That includes the other mass marketed brands made by the same manufacturer (NorthStar, Kenmore, GE, Morton, probably WalMart.com and some low priced Eco). I have two of them here now. I'm not sure you know what a new control valve and resin costs. I assume you don't because if you did, you may have a different opinion than the idea being bogus; or expensive, especially for DIYers. I offer (both locally and by e-mail) a renew-it kit for most brands whether they have non industry standard resin tanks/valves or not. I have a North Star and Kenmore (Sears) here that are both less than 3 years old and I can put any model of any industry standard valve (Fleck, Autotrol, Erie etc.) on them. That includes the other non-industry standard brands I mentioned above. Depending on the softener, the kit can include the choice of control valve and type of by-pass valve, choice of distributor tube, a safety brine system, brine well w/cap, choice of resin, gravel underbed, choice of salt tank and a sch 80 PVC valve to tank adapter. The delivered kit costs only a 1/3rd to 2/3rds of your sale price of $500. So tell me, what goes wrong with a fiberglass mineral tank and polyethylene salt tank? BTW, his Culligan softener and filter has/had rubber lined, neoprene I think, steel tanks. Many of the control valves independents sell can be rebuilt and will last another 5-15 years. I've rebuilt Fleck built valves on Culligan and no name equipment, both softeners and heavy mineral filters, that had lasted 25 years without service. As far as I know they are still in service. Many of the best known national brands have used or currently use Fleck valves, and all off them are easily rebuilt for less than $150 and that would include a new motor in most cases. How could anyone go wrong doing that? Especially with new factory warranties on controls running 5 years and on tanks 10 years? Gary Quality Water Associates |
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