Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

--
Flores

I went thru something similar on a car loan. Afte a few months, I
opted for automatic deductions from a checking account ev. month
instead of sending a check - when I wanted to pay it off in full,I
called to verify the final amount and got a big hassle about extra
fees. Fortunately, I had kept the payment book after I started the
automatic stuff, and arrived with it in hand, showing the final amount.
Did they ever backpaddle on that one.

Moral of story - hang onto the payment book or schedule or whatever you
have from the start of the loan.

wrote:
I went thru something similar on a car loan. Afte a few months, I
opted for automatic deductions from a checking account ev. month
instead of sending a check - when I wanted to pay it off in full,I
called



sorry to piggyback on this, but it's coming back to me now. I called
merely to be certain that they knew they were about to get the last
payt automatically and when would I get the title etc... and that's
when they said, "Oh you really owe x amt more and have to send a check
yourself - I countered with "If I hadn't called, what would you have
done?" - no response to that.

Andy Hill writes:
When paying off a mortgage, it's usually easier to call the service # and
request a "payoff amount" which is usually good for a week or so.

Some mortgage lenders charge a fee for calculating your payoff amount.
It's really not hard to calculate; do it yourself and put a little
extra in the check to make sure you're covering the full amount;
they'll send you a refund of the difference (although it may take them
a few months to do it, they're legally obligated to).

And, yes, seems like there's always some recording fee or
another. Banks love to tack on fees.

They can't charge any fees for paying off a mortgage that aren't
spelled out in the mortgage paperwork you signed, just like they can't
charge you any fees for a bank account that they don't notify you
about. If they try, you should refuse to pay the fees, and while
you're at it, you should report them to the appropriate regulatory
agency for attempting to levy fees illegally.

The only way these practices can be stopped is by consumers refusing
to put up with them. If you let a bank or lender treat you this way,
you're part of the problem.

wrote:
Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

When paying off a mortgage, it's usually easier to call the service # and
request a "payoff amount" which is usually good for a week or so. Saves a
bit of hassle. And, yes, seems like there's always some recording fee or
another. Banks love to tack on fees.

In article . com,
says...

Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

Why didn't you call to find out the payoff amount? You must have known that
that is not the same as the remaining balance...or did you?

You could have made this easier on yourself. And what possible difference does
it make where your calls went to?

Banty

In article , Andy Hill says...

wrote:
Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

When paying off a mortgage, it's usually easier to call the service # and
request a "payoff amount" which is usually good for a week or so. Saves a
bit of hassle. And, yes, seems like there's always some recording fee or
another. Banks love to tack on fees.

The bank has already accounted for the expenses, to them, of setting up the
payment book, calculating the amortization, etc. etc.

When you want something different, someone has to do it.

Do YOU work for free?

Or, you'd just rather have other fees raised, absorb this eventuality, and bury
your head in the sand about it? TINSTAAFL.

Banty

Banty wrote:

Why didn't you call to find out the payoff amount?

Heehee, I can see you don't have any experience with CitiMortage.
I could write a couple of pages here on my experiences with their
phone drones, e.g. three different people giving me three different
answers, etc.

You must have known that
that is not the same as the remaining balance...or did you?

I knew there'd be a little interest, as I said, but this extra
fee for something or other was never mentioned to me. And you
must've missed the part I wrote about TWO of the phone people
telling me last week that my balance was zero.

You could have made this easier on yourself. And what possible difference does
it make where your calls went to?

Well, even though the Indians are generally better than the American
phone
workers, there's the problem of connections that aren't great, little
delays
in voice transmission, their thick accents that are sometimes hard to
understand,
etc...

--
F

wrote:

I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

Nope, not strange. We've paid off several mortgages (okay, we've sold
some homes and refinanced a few times, but someday, someday...), and
there's a payoff amount versus the loan balance amount. The payoff
amount usually has something like a small fee for closing the account
(did you read your mortgage documentation when you got the mortgage?)
and the interest amount as of X date -- when you call for the payoff
amount (versus the balance), they'll tell you.

Read the fine print; I'll bet it's there.

Caledonia

In article .com,
says...


Banty wrote:

Why didn't you call to find out the payoff amount?

Heehee, I can see you don't have any experience with CitiMortage.
I could write a couple of pages here on my experiences with their
phone drones, e.g. three different people giving me three different
answers, etc.

Evasive silly answer.

Did you even TRY to get the payoff amount?


You must have known that
that is not the same as the remaining balance...or did you?

I knew there'd be a little interest, as I said, but this extra
fee for something or other was never mentioned to me. And you
must've missed the part I wrote about TWO of the phone people
telling me last week that my balance was zero.


That was all the rigamarole you encountered after you wild-ass-guessed the
payoff amount.

You could have made this easier on yourself. And what possible difference does
it make where your calls went to?

Well, even though the Indians are generally better than the American
phone
workers, there's the problem of connections that aren't great, little
delays
in voice transmission, their thick accents that are sometimes hard to
understand,
etc...


Giving you more to whine about...

Banty

On 12 Oct 2005 06:49:42 -0700, wrote:

Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?


Funny but I had to deal with CitiMortgage tonite by phone and I agree,
it's hard to understand their Indian accent. On top of that after
going thru the loop and getting a live person, after we exchanged some
info, we cut disconnected. Of course we hadn't gotten the person's
name yet nor extension so we had to call back and go thru the loop
again. Upon the second call back, I asked if we could give our phone
number in case because of what happened and they said they can't call
us back so it was again a game of chance. Luckily the second time we
didn't get cut off.

Anyway, when you want to pay off a mortgage (I have experience since I
just had just had a seller pay off my owner financed loan) you should
request a pay off statement first. And like others said it may
include some extra costs on the loan beyond what you believe is the
loan balance.

Last, now that you paid it off, request a "release of lien" document
from CitiMortgage so you have legal written proof of satisfying the
loan and perhaps have it recorded in your tax office. You will
probably need this when you want to sell your home. By the way, the
name of the dept and phone number is "Satisfaction Research
Department" (strange name to me) and their fax number is 301-696-4505
(open 8am to 8pm eastern but you can fax anytime). Include you payoff
date, account number and your name (per their instructions) for your
request for a release of lien.

Rob wrote:

Funny but I had to deal with CitiMortgage tonite by phone and I agree,
it's hard to understand their Indian accent.

Yep, and a lot of them talk too fast too.

On top of that after
going thru the loop and getting a live person, after we exchanged some
info, we cut disconnected. Of course we hadn't gotten the person's
name yet nor extension so we had to call back and go thru the loop
again. Upon the second call back, I asked if we could give our phone
number in case because of what happened and they said they can't call
us back so it was again a game of chance. Luckily the second time we
didn't get cut off.

It's so funny how companies have you listen to all kinds of gushy
crap about how great they are, while you're waiting for what is
usually very bad customer service. CitiMortgage doesn't impress me.

Anyway, when you want to pay off a mortgage (I have experience since I
just had just had a seller pay off my owner financed loan) you should
request a pay off statement first. And like others said it may
include some extra costs on the loan beyond what you believe is the
loan balance.

They charge too much for a payoff statement. Lenders are notorious
for charging exorbitant amounts for things. One of my favs is when
they try to get customers to switch to--is it bi-weekly?--payment
schedules where all the customer is doing is, in effect, making
one extra payment a year or something. The customer can do the
same for free. Most lenders charge something like $300 to "switch."

Last, now that you paid it off, request a "release of lien" document
from CitiMortgage so you have legal written proof of satisfying the
loan and perhaps have it recorded in your tax office.

Yep, the guy in India told me that, in my state, it's supposed
to be sent to the tax office in my county. I guess I should have
a copy of that too, of course they'd probably wanna charge me $50
for it.

You will
probably need this when you want to sell your home. By the way, the
name of the dept and phone number is "Satisfaction Research
Department" (strange name to me) and their fax number is 301-696-4505
(open 8am to 8pm eastern but you can fax anytime). Include you payoff
date, account number and your name (per their instructions) for your
request for a release of lien.

Thanks!

--
F

In article .com,
wrote:

They charge too much for a payoff statement. Lenders are notorious
for charging exorbitant amounts for things. One of my favs is when
they try to get customers to switch to--is it bi-weekly?--payment
schedules where all the customer is doing is, in effect, making
one extra payment a year or something. The customer can do the
same for free. Most lenders charge something like $300 to "switch."

Yes, that is a rip-off, especially when they also charge $5-10 extra per
payment.

You can accomplish the same thing at zero extra cost by paying an extra
1/12th of a payment per month as extra principal.

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

As stated in other posts, you need to call and get the finally pay off
amount.
My comment now is about Citibank or Citimortage. We have dealt and are
dealing with
them with both our first and second mortgages and let me tell you I am so
fed up with this call
center in india! My goodness we have been going round and round with them.
Half the time I cann't even
understand a word they are saying. Half the time I can't get them to
understand what I am asking. With something
as important as loan terms and needing to understand the details before
proceeding is of utmost importance. To leave
this with a foreign call center is unbelievable. Any home loan I have ever
had I had a loan officer that I talked with
everytime I called in. The loan officer knows exactly what I need because he
has been with me thru' the whole process.
I didn't chose Citimortage or Citibank my original loan was sold to them.
Believe me it has been a nightmare dealing with
Citibank. Avoid them at all costs!!!

wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay, this is no big deal, but it is annoying, and
I knew there'd be some crap like this.

I paid off my small mortgage this month (CitiMortgage).
Last month's statement stated that I had a principal
balance of 1,280.97, with the usual regular payment
of 413.97 due on Oct. 1, $7.87 of that being interest.
So, I sent a check for 1,280.97 and they processed it
on Oct. 4th. When they posted the payment, they stopped
my account access to their Website (apparently their policy
when balance paid off, for some reason).

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

They went on to say that although the loan is
considered paid in full, they want to be reimbursed the $18.65.
I then called and asked about the $18.65, and got India
again. I believe the gist of what she said was that $8.65
was for interest, and $10 for some payoff fee of some sort.
I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

--
Flores

In misc.consumers.house Rich Greenberg wrote:

You can accomplish the same thing at zero extra cost by paying an extra
1/12th of a payment per month as extra principal.

.... and beyond the minimum payments required to pay it of in (presumably)
30 years, how much you want to pay in a given month is up to you. If you
have a good month you can pay an extra 300%. If you get a raise you can
increase your payment the same % as your raise. If you get laid off you're
automatically back to the 30 year payments without any extra paperwork
or fees.

In article 2_u3f.31246$Rk5.8373@lakeread06, wrote:
In misc.consumers.house Rich Greenberg wrote:

You can accomplish the same thing at zero extra cost by paying an extra
1/12th of a payment per month as extra principal.

... and beyond the minimum payments required to pay it of in (presumably)
30 years, how much you want to pay in a given month is up to you. If you
have a good month you can pay an extra 300%. If you get a raise you can
increase your payment the same % as your raise. If you get laid off you're
automatically back to the 30 year payments without any extra paperwork
or fees.

Correct. I paid off a 15 yr mortgage in 4-5 years, thanks to an
inheritance. Paid $5k extra each month for a while until only a bit was
left, then one lump.

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

wrote...

I didn't know that at the time and called to see what was
going on. My call was received by their Indian call center,
and I was told that my balance was zero. I figured I'd owe
a little interest, so I asked twice if they were sure it
was zero. I also asked if there were going to be any
fees of any kind that I was going to be stuck with. Both
guys I spoke with said no, that my balance was zero, and
that I would be getting payoff letter in a few days.

Yesterday, I got a letter from CitiMortgage. First paragraph:

"CitiMortage recently received payoff funds, which was less
than the amount required to pay your loan in full. However,
CitiMortage advanced $18.65 on your behalf to pay the loan
in full."

I've sent them the check. As I said, it's not the money,
but this is annoying. This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

Unfortunately, it's all too common these days. Citi has apparently decided to
abrogate their responsibility to properly service your mortgage, giving the task
to some offshore company in an attempt to make more $$ on your shoulders.

Since it's the principle, not the $$, I would continue to fight it in writing,
and demand a refund.

Andy Hill wrote:
wrote:

When paying off a mortgage, it's usually easier to call the service # and
request a "payoff amount" which is usually good for a week or so. Saves a
bit of hassle. And, yes, seems like there's always some recording fee or
another. Banks love to tack on fees.

If you are paying off any loan, but especially a mortgage backed one,
you should request a written "payoff demand" from the lender. The
payoff demand is what the lender "demands" to be paid (yes, in
accordance with the terms of the loan), in writing, to satisfy the
debt. Like any verbal payoff amount you get from a bank, it is usually
only valid for a certian amount of time, but once you have paid the
amount demanded within the timeframe, you have legally satisfied/paid
off the loan.

wrote:

This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

Every mortgage statement I've ever seen has the statement that the balance shown
is not necessarily the payoff amount and to contact the lender for the payoff
amount (which usually has validity dates associated with it). Mortgage interest
is paid in arrears, so its entirely possible that you owe a day or two interest.
As to a "payoff fee", you'll need to read your mortgage to see if they mentioned
that when you took out the loan.

I've had a student loan and 2 credit cards with Citibank for 10 years
now, and up until now been a very satisfied customer. However, when I
called them to change my address recently I got an Indian. Not all
that unusual, as I've known many Indian immigrants over the years. I
began to have my suspicions though when I had to spell the state I was
moving too, and the call taker didn't know it was a state. Her english
wasn't good enough, in my opinion, to be taking calls from America. I
called back the next day to confirm that my address was correct, and
got a woman who had clearly been throughly schooled in British english,
and I was able to confirm both my business and that she was, indeed, in
India.

This does not set well with me. I'll have to think very hard about
giving them the boot after the loans are paid off.

-beaumon

Make sure that they remove the lien on your house! And that they send
you a letter to that effect. Otherwise when you go to sell there may
be complications as the title company has to ensure that the loan was
paid off.

When I bought my house, the sellers had repaid a home equity loan but
there was still a lien on their house. So instead of my mortgage
lender paying them, they held the money in escrow for a week or so
while they verified the house was indeed paid off.

I have Citibank credit cards and have not had problems with their call
centers. But I understand that fewer issues might come up with
mortgages than with credit cards so they'd possibly send the mortgage
calls to a less-experienced crew, despite the fact that mortgages
involve more money than credit cards.

I had to argue a bit when I repaid my mortgage early-- and I had been
an employee of the lender at the time I took out the mortgage (but not
when I later paid it off, which was after the bank had been sold). As
I recall they wanted to charge me fees to remove the lien and I told
them to stuff it-- their servicing center was in Buffalo which was
under several feet of snow at the time, so I had to tell several people
to stuff it before I managed to get a hold of someone qualified to
stuff it.

But stuff it they did, and now the house is mine, mine, all mine.

Oh, yeah, when I tried to pay off my student loan early (this was a
while ago) the lender used something called The Rule of 78s (a
non-mathematical way of calculating 'interest' that made early payoff
higher). It was in the contract that I'd signed when I was 17; the
contract also said that there were no pre-payment penalties. I pointed
out to them that The Rule of 78s itself was a prepayment penalty and
had to threaten a class-action suit to get them to take my payoff.

It pays to know the rules and a few nasty legal terms.

Shaun Eli
http://www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smarter Audience (sm)

"Shaun Eli" writes:
Make sure that they remove the lien on your house! And that they send
you a letter to that effect. Otherwise when you go to sell there may
be complications as the title company has to ensure that the loan was
paid off.

In some states, the lender is required by law to register the
discharge of a mortgage or home equity loan (registering that
the loan has been discharged is the same as "removing the
lien"). In others, the lender is *not* required to register
the discharge, but rather only to provide the discharge to the
debtor, in which case the debtor has to visit the registry of
deeds, or wherever such things are handled in his/her state,
to register the discharge and clear the title.

When I bought my house, the sellers had repaid a home equity loan but
there was still a lien on their house. So instead of my mortgage
lender paying them, they held the money in escrow for a week or so
while they verified the house was indeed paid off.

The seller of your house should have registered the discharge
of the loan before putting it on the market.

Your lawyer or the lawyer for your mortgage company should
have found the lien during the title search before your
closing and demanded that the seller register the discharge
before proceeding with the closing.

I recall they wanted to charge me fees to remove the lien and I told
them to stuff it

What kind of fees? If they were asking you for a fee to
register the discharge, and you do not live in a state which
requires lenders to do the registering, then they were within
their rights to charge you a fee.

Oh, yeah, when I tried to pay off my student loan early (this was a
while ago)

How long ago? The Rule of 78s has been illegal under Federal
law since 1992 for loans with a term of more than five years,
and it's illegal in 15 states for loans with shorter terms as
well. See
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20010827a.asp.

In article , Jonathan Kamens says...

"Shaun Eli" writes:
Make sure that they remove the lien on your house! And that they send
you a letter to that effect. Otherwise when you go to sell there may
be complications as the title company has to ensure that the loan was
paid off.

In some states, the lender is required by law to register the
discharge of a mortgage or home equity loan (registering that
the loan has been discharged is the same as "removing the
lien"). In others, the lender is *not* required to register
the discharge, but rather only to provide the discharge to the
debtor, in which case the debtor has to visit the registry of
deeds, or wherever such things are handled in his/her state,
to register the discharge and clear the title.

A home equity loan is a somewhat different animal than a regular amortizing
mortgage, esp. if it operates as a line of credit. It may be necessary to
specifically cancel the line of credit.

I just re-fi'd folding in an 11 year old 30-yr mortgage and a home equity
balance. I got the lien release from the old mortgage holder, but a regular
bill from the home equity holder showing a zero balance and a full line of
credit. A phone call clarified everything for me.


When I bought my house, the sellers had repaid a home equity loan but
there was still a lien on their house. So instead of my mortgage
lender paying them, they held the money in escrow for a week or so
while they verified the house was indeed paid off.

The seller of your house should have registered the discharge
of the loan before putting it on the market.

Your lawyer or the lawyer for your mortgage company should
have found the lien during the title search before your
closing and demanded that the seller register the discharge
before proceeding with the closing.


I'd bet they didn't actually close out a equity line of credit.

I recall they wanted to charge me fees to remove the lien and I told
them to stuff it

What kind of fees? If they were asking you for a fee to
register the discharge, and you do not live in a state which
requires lenders to do the registering, then they were within
their rights to charge you a fee.


I don't get this were banks are supposed to never charge fees. I guess folks
would rather have it folded into higher rates so that they don't see the fees,
so that they can feel all better about it.

Not saying the banks are all good, but if I can, for example, see an exhorbitant
fee for switching to a 13 payment/year plan, at least I can *see* it.

Banty

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:
wrote:

This was my first mortage, so I
don't know. Is this kind of strange?

Every mortgage statement I've ever seen has the statement that the balance shown
is not necessarily the payoff amount and to contact the lender for the payoff
amount (which usually has validity dates associated with it). Mortgage interest
is paid in arrears,

This brings up something I thought about. When my Sept. mortgage
statement
stated the interest amount due (the statements always list the regular
payment amount due, along with how much of it is interest due), the
amount
listed was for *September*, not October, right? I take it that this is
what
you meant above. IOW, when a person makes his monthly mortgage
payment,
the interest part of it is for the previous month, not the current one,
correct?

so its entirely possible that you owe a day or two interest.

Yep, they didn't process the payment till the 4th, even though they
usually
process it within a couple of days of my dropping it in the mailbox,
surprisingly.
I thought they'd get it no later than the 1st, as usual.

As to a "payoff fee", you'll need to read your mortgage to see if they mentioned
that when you took out the loan.

#22 under the covenants states that "upon payment of all sums secured
by this Security Instrument, Lender shall cancel this Security
Instrument with-
out charge to borrower. Borrower shall pay any recordation costs."

I take it that this "recordation" is them sending the Release of Lien
to
my county tax office, which, according to the Indian I spoke with,
they are supposed to do.

--
Flores

writes:
This brings up something I thought about. When my Sept. mortgage
statement
stated the interest amount due (the statements always list the regular
payment amount due, along with how much of it is interest due), the
amount
listed was for *September*, not October, right? I take it that this is
what
you meant above. IOW, when a person makes his monthly mortgage
payment,
the interest part of it is for the previous month, not the current one,
correct?

For a mortgage (as opposed to a home equity loan), the
interest listed on the statement is the interest calculated as
of the due date of the next payment shown on the statement.
Note that for a mortgage, sending in your payment does not
reduce the interest you pay -- as long as you send in your
payment before the end of your grace period, it is applied as
of the due date, even if you send it in earlier. There is no
advantage to sending in a mortgage payment earlier than the
due date. The advantages of sending it in on or before the
due date, as opposed to before the end of the grace period,
are that (a) it gives you a buffer in case the payment is
delayed or you forget to send it in when you should have, and
(b) if you consistently send in your payment after the due
date, your payments may show up as late on your credit report
even if you send them in before the end of the grace period.
See
http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20...gages_work.htm
for more information.

For a home equity loan, your payment is applied on the day it
is received. The amount of interest that has accrued on that
day is the amount of your payment that is used to pay off
interest. There is thus an advantage to sending in home
equity loan payments early.

Yep, they didn't process the payment till the 4th, even though they
usually
process it within a couple of days of my dropping it in the mailbox,
surprisingly.
I thought they'd get it no later than the 1st, as usual.

I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that they are
required to credit your account for a payment on the day they
receive it, even if they don't actually process it until a
later day. I suppose if you didn't send it certified or
something, you've got no proof of when they received it, but
it's rare for 1st-class mail to take more than a few days to
get anywhere in the country, and you presumably have a good
idea of how long it has taken them to receive your payments
in the past.

#22 under the covenants states that "upon payment of all sums secured
by this Security Instrument, Lender shall cancel this Security
Instrument with-
out charge to borrower. Borrower shall pay any recordation costs."

I take it that this "recordation" is them sending the Release of Lien
to
my county tax office, which, according to the Indian I spoke with,
they are supposed to do.

Whether they are "supposed to" register the discharge depends
on the state. Some lenders will register it even in states
where they aren't required to; others will only register it in
the states that require it. In either case, it seems to me
that the wording you quoted above is vague about whether
they're allowed to charge you a "service charge" for the
registration over and above the fees charged by the registry.
There seems to be sufficient vagueness to enable them to get
away with gouging you, if they so choose. You might consider
(a) calling your registry and finding out what their fees are
for registering a discharge, (b) calling CitiMortgage and
trying to get them to give you a concrete number for what
they're going to charge you to do the registration, and (c)
if the two numbers are wildly out of sync with each other,
either arguing with them or telling them to send you the
discharge and you'll register it yourself (keeping in mind
that this might require standing in line for a day at the
registry, depending on how busy it is).

Banty writes:
I don't get this were banks are supposed to never charge fees. I guess folks
would rather have it folded into higher rates so that they don't see the fees,
so that they can feel all better about it.

Oh, it's perfectly fine for banks to charge fees, as long as
the fees are disclosed. It's not perfectly fine for a bank to
enter into a binding agreement with a customer by giving the
customer an account, mortgage, loan, etc., and then to attempt
to unilaterally change the terms of that agreement later by
charging fees which were not specified as part of the
agreement.

wrote:

This brings up something I thought about. When my Sept. mortgage
statement stated the interest amount due (the statements always list the regular
payment amount due, along with how much of it is interest due), the
amount listed was for *September*, not October, right? I take it that this is
what you meant above. IOW, when a person makes his monthly mortgage
payment, the interest part of it is for the previous month, not the current one,
correct?

Correct. (If I understand what you are saying!)

Looking at my statement for October (dated 9/30), I see how much was credited to
interest and principle for last months payment (September), along with a total
number for this month's payment (October), due on November 1.

wrote:

Yep, they didn't process the payment till the 4th, even though they
usually process it within a couple of days of my dropping it in the mailbox,
surprisingly. I thought they'd get it no later than the 1st, as usual.

Yes. Regular payments seemed to be credited based on the due date regardless of
when received, while the final payment gets computed based on the date received.
Slightly off topic - that's why these plans that have you make biweekly payments
are useless. All the company does is lump the two payments together at the end
of the month. And they want to charge you for the privilege, when you could do
it yourself for free.

Note that biweekly mortgages in other countries have different terms and may
accrue biweekly.

In article , Jonathan Kamens says...

Banty writes:
I don't get this were banks are supposed to never charge fees. I guess folks
would rather have it folded into higher rates so that they don't see the fees,
so that they can feel all better about it.

Oh, it's perfectly fine for banks to charge fees, as long as
the fees are disclosed. It's not perfectly fine for a bank to
enter into a binding agreement with a customer by giving the
customer an account, mortgage, loan, etc., and then to attempt
to unilaterally change the terms of that agreement later by
charging fees which were not specified as part of the
agreement.

Of course.

I dont' see where that happened to the OP, though.

Banty

Banty writes:
I dont' see where that happened to the OP, though.

We don't know whether it did or not. The OP said they told
him (her?) that he was charged a $10 fee for something or
other. They weren't specific about what the fee was for (or,
at least, if they were, the OP didn't accurately relate what
they said), and he wasn't specific about whether his mortgage
paperwork mentions this fee.

We don't know whether it did or not. The OP said they told
him (her?) that he was charged a $10 fee for something or
other. They weren't specific about what the fee was for (or,
at least, if they were, the OP didn't accurately relate what
they said), and he wasn't specific about whether his mortgage
paperwork mentions this fee.

One fee that *might* be relevant here is recording the release of
lien at the courthouse. This is an external fee that has to be
paid to the courthouse, not the bank pocketing it. When I paid off
my mortgage, the bank sent the paperwork to *me* and it was up to
me to get it recorded (and pay the fee). It was $9 at the time.

Some banks might do that for you (and charge you for it, and maybe
charge you for sending someone down to the courthouse to do it.)
If they do, it's probably specified in the mortgage paperwork when
the mortgage was first established.

Gordon L. Burditt

On 13 Oct 2005 05:25:39 -0700, wrote:


Rob wrote:

Funny but I had to deal with CitiMortgage tonite by phone and I agree,
it's hard to understand their Indian accent.

Yep, and a lot of them talk too fast too.

On top of that after
going thru the loop and getting a live person, after we exchanged some
info, we cut disconnected. Of course we hadn't gotten the person's
name yet nor extension so we had to call back and go thru the loop
again. Upon the second call back, I asked if we could give our phone
number in case because of what happened and they said they can't call
us back so it was again a game of chance. Luckily the second time we
didn't get cut off.

It's so funny how companies have you listen to all kinds of gushy
crap about how great they are, while you're waiting for what is
usually very bad customer service. CitiMortgage doesn't impress me.

Anyway, when you want to pay off a mortgage (I have experience since I
just had just had a seller pay off my owner financed loan) you should
request a pay off statement first. And like others said it may
include some extra costs on the loan beyond what you believe is the
loan balance.

They charge too much for a payoff statement. Lenders are notorious
for charging exorbitant amounts for things. One of my favs is when
they try to get customers to switch to--is it bi-weekly?--payment
schedules where all the customer is doing is, in effect, making
one extra payment a year or something. The customer can do the
same for free. Most lenders charge something like $300 to "switch."

Last, now that you paid it off, request a "release of lien" document
from CitiMortgage so you have legal written proof of satisfying the
loan and perhaps have it recorded in your tax office.

Yep, the guy in India told me that, in my state, it's supposed
to be sent to the tax office in my county. I guess I should have
a copy of that too, of course they'd probably wanna charge me $50
for it.

You will
probably need this when you want to sell your home. By the way, the
name of the dept and phone number is "Satisfaction Research
Department" (strange name to me) and their fax number is 301-696-4505
(open 8am to 8pm eastern but you can fax anytime). Include you payoff
date, account number and your name (per their instructions) for your
request for a release of lien.

Thanks!


Your welcome.

I had to call them again and the next guy asked to include the address
of the property and anything else like a payoff statement as well. I
understand that but why didn't they tell me that in the first call is
beyond me even after I asked them. When ever I tried to interject my
experience with real estate or common sense, they scripted answer is
"I understand" and then don't answer me. I even asked for a voice
number after I send the fax to get its status and they said there is
no voice number. I also called a local branch and asked them while I
was on hold to the Indian call center but they just gave me the phone
number of the call center... no help. I don't have a good feeling
about getting satisfaction. Best advice is stay away from
CitiMortgage if possible.

I'm here to say for the record what you said about them to begin with
is true since I've had the same experiences.

Good luck to you and me and any other unfortunate souls.