I've moved into a house build in 1971 which is wired mainly with
aluminum wiring. I've read a handful of published information that
states that aluminum wiring (or more correctly, the connections made
with aluminum wiring) do in fact create a fire hazard greater than
copper wire. I also know that a lot of people state that aluminum
wiring does not pose any greater risk than copper if done properly.
What I'm interested in is what is "done properly" and have there been
tests done on such "proper" wiring methods to prove that they do in
fact pose no increased fire hazard?

So in other words, what I'm looking for is published (on paper,
internet, etc.) information from reputable sources that would refute
the claims made by the information that I've already read making
aluminum out to be a fire hazard. A lot of the information I've read
so far can be found at www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

Thanks for the input,
Harry

Make certain you have lots of working smoke detectors while you check
out it's safety.

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've moved into a house build in 1971 which is wired mainly with
aluminum wiring. I've read a handful of published information that
states that aluminum wiring (or more correctly, the connections made
with aluminum wiring) do in fact create a fire hazard greater than
copper wire. I also know that a lot of people state that aluminum
wiring does not pose any greater risk than copper if done properly.
What I'm interested in is what is "done properly" and have there been
tests done on such "proper" wiring methods to prove that they do in
fact pose no increased fire hazard?

So in other words, what I'm looking for is published (on paper,
internet, etc.) information from reputable sources that would refute
the claims made by the information that I've already read making
aluminum out to be a fire hazard. A lot of the information I've read
so far can be found at www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

Thanks for the input,
Harry

I have been installing AL for more than 30 years. There is nothing wrong
with the wire. The problems come from the installers and the terminations.
If properly terminated there will be no more problems with AL than copper. I
do not know of any utilities that use copper any more. All of the long lines
and distribution lines in the West are primarily AL. If they were not some
maroon would steal them. Which has happened in the old days, 1960-70's. All
of that wire was replaced with AL.

Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long. Chances are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

Most of the published articles are done by fire departments and the copper
association. Unfortunately the fire department only gets to visit when there
is a problem.

Ideal makes a wire nut for AL-CU connections. About $2 ea at the box
stores. Devices should be listed AL-CU and they are harder and harder to
find.

I live in the midwest and AL wire is used on most new transmission
lines I see. How about homes - I thought AL wiring in homes no longer
was approved? When I lived in the south a bunch of "modular homes"
factory built with AL wiring burned - had everybody looking at their
wires.

Thanks for the info on the meggar.

The problem with AL wiring in homes is at the connections ...
transmission lines would obvioulsy have very different connection
systems in place compared to your average home. There is for example
an approved and tested method of making aluminum wire connections to
copper wire using an COPALUM tool. Chances are something similar, but
on a bigger scale, is done with transmission lines ... however,
comparing transmission lines to home wiring, doesn't really prove much
since they are such different systems.

Thanks,
Harry

"butch burton" wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in the midwest and AL wire is used on most new transmission
lines I see. How about homes - I thought AL wiring in homes no longer
was approved? When I lived in the south a bunch of "modular homes"
factory built with AL wiring burned - had everybody looking at their
wires.

Thanks for the info on the meggar.

What really happened was copper went through the roof in price so people
started using AL and AL clad copper wire. Let us not go into the copper clad
stuff.
During the time that copper was high and the less than craftsmen were using
the AL romex there were a lot of problems. One contractor where I lived lost
his electrical license because of fires. He even burned his own mothers home
down.

The problem lies in the craftsman pulling the wire and doing the
terminations. Using the proper devices, ( switches and recpts ) is also a
biggie. I know of lots of "electrical workers" that stabbed the AL wire into
the back of the devices. Even though the device instructions said not to
with AL wire. ( use the side screws ).

Larger AL wire is connected using hydraulic press tools. There are even AL
to copper connectors made. I have never seen a hydraulic pressed
termination go bad not in 30 years. Providing it was done correctly in the
beginning.

Today there is a different alloy used and different insulation. New homes
today have circuits above 30 amp AL is still used. ( general guideline ).

You can spend the money for copper. I doubt that you will see a penny when
selling the home. No one cares what is in the walls. People accept plastic
flexible water pipes ( general term ) all of the time now days. Some new
home builders do not even offer to put in copper water pipes.

According to SQLit :

You can spend the money for copper. I doubt that you will see a penny when
selling the home. No one cares what is in the walls. People accept plastic
flexible water pipes ( general term ) all of the time now days. Some new
home builders do not even offer to put in copper water pipes.

Having aluminum in your walls is _still_ a significant house price dampener.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

It all depends on the real estate market in your area. I know in my
area, the wiring won't make much difference with the market we have
right now ... even knob and tube wired houses sell. I'm willing to
accept the fact that whatever money I spend on the wiring will never be
recovered. I want to fix things for safety sake mainly.

Thanks,
Harry

SQLit wrote:



What really happened was copper went through the roof in price so people
started using AL and AL clad copper wire. Let us not go into the copper clad
stuff.
During the time that copper was high and the less than craftsmen were using
the AL romex there were a lot of problems. One contractor where I lived lost
his electrical license because of fires. He even burned his own mothers home
down.

The problem lies in the craftsman pulling the wire and doing the
terminations. Using the proper devices, ( switches and recpts ) is also a
biggie. I know of lots of "electrical workers" that stabbed the AL wire into
the back of the devices. Even though the device instructions said not to
with AL wire. ( use the side screws ).

Larger AL wire is connected using hydraulic press tools. There are even AL
to copper connectors made. I have never seen a hydraulic pressed
termination go bad not in 30 years. Providing it was done correctly in the
beginning.

Biggest problem was probably the switches and receptacles (although
backstabing them would be a real bad idea). After problems developed, UL
removed listing on wire and devices in 7-1971. In 9-1971 they started
listing devices which are marked CO/ALR. I havn't heard of problems with
these devices. If I was using them, I would probably use some anti-oxide
paste on the aluminum wire.

Bud--

Thank you for the reply. I like your point about the fact that a lot
of the published articles are probably done by fire departments, etc.

But taking the example of the Ideal wire nut ... who do I believe. The
information presented he

www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/ideal65.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/i65debat.htm

Or individuals like yourself and others who've never had issues with
these connectors in their own homes? Hence my dilema ...

Also, as a side point ... what do you consider "properly terminated"?
Using AL approved outlets and switches, pigtailing, etc.?

Thanks,
Harry

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you for the reply. I like your point about the fact that a lot
of the published articles are probably done by fire departments, etc.

But taking the example of the Ideal wire nut ... who do I believe. The
information presented he

www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/ideal65.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/i65debat.htm

Or individuals like yourself and others who've never had issues with
these connectors in their own homes? Hence my dilema ...

Also, as a side point ... what do you consider "properly terminated"?
Using AL approved outlets and switches, pigtailing, etc.?

Thanks,
Harry


In addition to using properly labeled fixtures, the main thing you need to
use is an antioxidant on the aluminum where it is joined to any other wire
or terminal. The AL wire should also be scraped or sanded to remove
oxidation before making a connection. (I think this is in the NEC)

The failure mode of AL wiring is a build up of aluminum oxide (equivalent of
rust) inside the terminal contacts. This causes a rise in resistance of the
junction which will experience heating when current is flowed through it.
With enough resistance and current, sufficient heat can build up to ignite
nearby sources.

Placing a paste like anti oxidant on freshly stripped and sanded AL wire
will prevent the oxidation from occurring in the first place and ensure a
low resistance connection.

The terminals on CU/AL rated fixtures are more thermally compatible with the
AL so that it does not come loose (due to thermal expansion) which is
another cause for increased resistance and eventually heat.

With lamps turned on or something plugged into a receptacle, if you feel
any warmth coming from behind the wall plate, you should do something about
those immediately.

"PipeDown" wrote in message
news

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you for the reply. I like your point about the fact that a lot
of the published articles are probably done by fire departments, etc.

But taking the example of the Ideal wire nut ... who do I believe. The
information presented he

www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/ideal65.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/i65debat.htm

Or individuals like yourself and others who've never had issues with
these connectors in their own homes? Hence my dilema ...

Also, as a side point ... what do you consider "properly terminated"?
Using AL approved outlets and switches, pigtailing, etc.?

Thanks,
Harry


In addition to using properly labeled fixtures, the main thing you need to
use is an antioxidant on the aluminum where it is joined to any other wire
or terminal. The AL wire should also be scraped or sanded to remove
oxidation before making a connection. (I think this is in the NEC)

The failure mode of AL wiring is a build up of aluminum oxide (equivalent
of
rust) inside the terminal contacts. This causes a rise in resistance of
the
junction which will experience heating when current is flowed through it.
With enough resistance and current, sufficient heat can build up to ignite
nearby sources.

Placing a paste like anti oxidant on freshly stripped and sanded AL wire
will prevent the oxidation from occurring in the first place and ensure a
low resistance connection.

The terminals on CU/AL rated fixtures are more thermally compatible with
the
AL so that it does not come loose (due to thermal expansion) which is
another cause for increased resistance and eventually heat.

With lamps turned on or something plugged into a receptacle, if you feel
any warmth coming from behind the wall plate, you should do something
about
those immediately.

No offense intended.
Sanding a bare new conductor went out 20 years ago along with tape built up
stress cones.
If there is oxidation on the wire when terminating after you cut back the
insulation, testing is in order in my mind. There could be more issues
involved.

Anti oxidant is a good thought. The local utility and I have used axle
grease in a pinch. I learned that from them not the other way around. All
your trying to do is prevent oxidation after the connection is made. I will
and do use anti oxidant on terminations and splices.

There were switches and outlets that when the side screws were used no anti
ox was needed. I have not tried to buy them in ages cause I do not do that
kind of work any more. I do know that going to the box stores and trying to
find an device for AL is going to be next to impossible. At least in the box
stores I have been in lately.

Pigtailing out in copper is/was an acceptable method. Ask some pros in you
local area to see what they do.

SQLit posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Sanding a bare new conductor went out 20 years ago along with tape built up
stress cones.

tape build up stress cones?? What are they? Googled but no results...
--

Tekkie

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you for the reply. I like your point about the fact
that a lot
of the published articles are probably done by fire
departments, etc.

But taking the example of the Ideal wire nut ... who do I
believe. The
information presented he

www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/twistcpsc.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/ideal65.htm
www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/i65debat.htm

Or individuals like yourself and others who've never had
issues with
these connectors in their own homes? Hence my dilema ...

Also, as a side point ... what do you consider "properly
terminated"?
Using AL approved outlets and switches, pigtailing, etc.?

Thanks,
Harry


Take the high road, use copper. a roll of copper romex
isnt that expensive.
skip the hair splitting.

Phil Scott

SQLit:



SQLit wrote:

[...]

I have been installing AL for more than 30 years. There is nothing wrong
with the wire. The problems come from the installers and the terminations.
If properly terminated there will be no more problems with AL than copper. I
do not know of any utilities that use copper any more. All of the long lines
and distribution lines in the West are primarily AL. If they were not some
maroon would steal them. Which has happened in the old days, 1960-70's. All
of that wire was replaced with AL.

[...]

Ideal makes a wire nut for AL-CU connections. About $2 ea at the box
stores. Devices should be listed AL-CU and they are harder and harder to
find.




The AL metal its a superior conductor, and it is durable and easy
to work and install.

I understand that oxidation of the Al metal surfaces at the connections
are the main problem. AL oxide has a high dielectric strength, meaning
that it is poor conductor of electricity. In a simple connection, and
over the span of a few years, the AL oxide forms on the exposed
surfaces. The AL to AL contact area gets smaller. The electrical
resistance at the contact area is increased. Heating is a function of
current and resistance. The contact area get hot, and if the resistance
is high enough slight melting could occur. the contact area or the
cross sectional area of the wires may get smaller, and the resistance,
and hence the heating, increases. The connection melts down and fails.

CU oxide does not have as high a dielectric strength, and while the
same process can occur the amount of heat produced may be less.

I read that a coating can be applied to the finished connection of
AL-AL or AL-CU metals that prevents oxidation over a long period
of time. That, I think, is used in marine or shore environments.
What is that coating? Crimp type clamped wire connections may
provide great enough contact surface area and no access to O2
that the contact keeps a very low resistance that is lower than
the wire itself for the life of the connection.

AL wiring is low in cost, and is an efficient conductor. If oxidation
is allowed to occur in either AL or CU connections, especially those
that are not made with a sufficient surface contact area, and that
are not tight, heating and sputtering can occur.

I had a window air conditioning unit that was connected to two
3-wire extension cables. The copper contacts of the power cable
had green oxidation, and after the power went on the cable
outer ends were warm. Later in the day the cable to cable
connection exploded in a flash of light and smoke.
The circuit breaker opened. I am highly suspicious of cheap
power extension cables that have the wires and metal bits molded
into a low melting temperature rubbery plastic cable end with no
other wire separators or electrical insulation. Corrosion free
connectors may save electricity.

Ralph Hertle

According to Ralph Hertle :
The AL metal its a superior conductor, and it is durable and easy
to work and install.

AL is a poorer conductor. Simple physics. Look it up. That's why
it has to be a guage larger than copper for the same ampacity.

It's reasonably durable, but not only is it stiffer (both because it
is stiffer than copper to begin with, and because it has to be
a gauge larger for the ampacity), it's more brittle. Hence, more
difficult to work with than copper for the same ampacity, and more
likely to get work-hardened and crack if not handled properly.

And finally, due to its dialectric and "cold creep" properties,
under identical conditions, it will deteriorate faster than copper.

As such, aluminum is far more sensitive to sloppy workmanship, codes
_require_ anti-oxidant grease (not necessary for copper), and most
municipalities have banned the use of aluminum in residential wiring.

Certainly, for power distribution (60A and up), its price advantage
is enormous, so you do what you need to to make it safe.

But in general residential wiring, these days its a very bad idea.
And illegal in many places.

I've been working with wiring for a very long time. The only
connections I've ever seen burn out (aside from ones physically
damaged, exposed to water, or due to unbelievably bad workmanship)
have been aluminum.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

You made some good points on the differences between Al and Cu. Just
to further clarify, Cu has both and electrical and thermal conductivity
that is nearly 65% greater than that of Al. Not only does conduct
electrons better, Cu ability to dissipate heat is far greater than that
of aluminum. Cu does oxide at room temperature, but rather slowly.
Further, Cu oxide (CuO) does not form a tough coherent film. On the
other hand Al is one of the most powerful reducing agents known to man
(check out the thermite reaction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite). Any aluminum surface oxidizes
almost immediately and as the oxide layer grows conductivity drops
exponentially (this is why aluminum is so difficult to solder). Both
metals are prone to work hardening (if bend it repeatedly it gets
stiffer and then breaks). On the down size Cu is more expensive and 3
times more dense than Al, but weight matters little in a home. If
sized properly to compensate for current load as well the use of
dielectric greases, Al is a fine choice. On the other hand if done
poorly, the joints could easily heat up as the aluminum oxide grows and
potentially cause a fire. Without a doubt aluminum makes an excellent
choice for high tension power lines, however, in the home I would
prefer copper. This doesnt make aluminum unsafe, its just a
preference.

Ralph Hertle wrote:
The AL metal its a superior conductor, and it is durable and easy
to work and install.

GOOD conductor? Yes, if properly installed. Durable, etc.? Same answer.
But silver and copper are better conductors of electricity.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

SQLit wrote:


Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long. Chances are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

A megger only finds damaged insulation where there is a carbon path to
ground (or line-to-line). I think it would find a small percentage of
actual aluminum problems and no loose connections. Disconnect GFCIs if
you use one.

Bud--

Bud wrote:

SQLit wrote:


Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long. Chances
are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an
insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

A megger only finds damaged insulation where there is a carbon path to
ground (or line-to-line). I think it would find a small percentage of
actual aluminum problems and no loose connections. Disconnect GFCIs if
you use one.

Bud--

If the problem is due to a loose connection or oxidation induced high
resistance, then a multimeter will certainly detect that on the
resistance measurement function.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Bud wrote:

SQLit wrote:


Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long.
Chances are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an
insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

A megger only finds damaged insulation where there is a carbon path to
ground (or line-to-line). I think it would find a small percentage of
actual aluminum problems and no loose connections. Disconnect GFCIs if
you use one.

Bud--


If the problem is due to a loose connection or oxidation induced high
resistance, then a multimeter will certainly detect that on the
resistance measurement function.

(A multimeter is different from a megger.)

I don't think it is too practical to measure the junction resistance.
How do you connect to the wire that is on at least one side.
Tests have shown that wirenuts fail by the contact made not wire-to-wire
because of oxidation but through the steel spring. I remember the
resistance being about 2 ohms, not much. Not enough to dim lights, no
flicker. But the steel spring becomes a heating element that destroys
insulation and can ultimately cause a fire. 2 ohms may be hard to find
with a multimeter.

Bud--

Bud wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

Bud wrote:

SQLit wrote:


Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long.
Chances are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an
insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

A megger only finds damaged insulation where there is a carbon path
to ground (or line-to-line). I think it would find a small percentage
of actual aluminum problems and no loose connections. Disconnect
GFCIs if you use one.

Bud--



If the problem is due to a loose connection or oxidation induced high
resistance, then a multimeter will certainly detect that on the
resistance measurement function.

(A multimeter is different from a megger.)

I don't think it is too practical to measure the junction resistance.
How do you connect to the wire that is on at least one side.
Tests have shown that wirenuts fail by the contact made not wire-to-wire
because of oxidation but through the steel spring. I remember the
resistance being about 2 ohms,
correction -this should be a drop of 2 volts at a significant current;
if hte current was 10A the resistance would be 0.2 ohms

not much. Not enough to dim lights, no
flicker. But the steel spring becomes a heating element that destroys
insulation and can ultimately cause a fire.

0.2 ohms may be hard to find
with a multimeter.

Bud--

Bud wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

Bud wrote:

SQLit wrote:


Your home and mine (also built in 1971) have lasted this long.
Chances are
they will last a lot more. This is my 3 home of this vintage.
Do you know anyone with a 1000 volt meggar? You will need to unplug
EVERYTHING for the test. The meggar can tell you if there is an
insulation
problem and to a point loose connections.

A megger only finds damaged insulation where there is a carbon path
to ground (or line-to-line). I think it would find a small percentage
of actual aluminum problems and no loose connections. Disconnect
GFCIs if you use one.

Bud--



If the problem is due to a loose connection or oxidation induced high
resistance, then a multimeter will certainly detect that on the
resistance measurement function.

(A multimeter is different from a megger.)

I don't think it is too practical to measure the junction resistance.
How do you connect to the wire that is on at least one side.
Tests have shown that wirenuts fail by the contact made not wire-to-wire
because of oxidation but through the steel spring. I remember the
resistance being about 2 ohms, not much. Not enough to dim lights, no
flicker. But the steel spring becomes a heating element that destroys
insulation and can ultimately cause a fire. 2 ohms may be hard to find
with a multimeter.

How is the steel spring any different for Al wire than for Cu wire?
It's heating is a function of the current through it or what it absorbs
from the wire, not a function of the type of metal connected to it.
Heat is generated by ohmic resistance, and that comes from corrosion
between the Aluminum wires or the wires and the wire nut spring, not the
spring itself.


Matt

Does anyone know if using (and regularly testing) AFCI (Arc Fault
Circuit Interrupers) increases reliability aluminium wiring to
that of copper wiring when the current connection mechanisms are used?

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Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: Mark Fineman
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:30:08 -0400
Local: Wed, Aug 10 2005 9:30 pm
Subject: Info to backup safety of aluminum wiring?

Does anyone know if using (and regularly testing) AFCI (Arc Fault
Circuit Interrupers) increases reliability aluminium wiring to
that of copper wiring when the current connection mechanisms are used?

***

A very good question. I'd love to know the answer too.

Thanks,
Harry

Harry Muscle wrote:

I've moved into a house build in 1971 which is wired mainly with
aluminum wiring. I've read a handful of published information that
states that aluminum wiring (or more correctly, the connections made
with aluminum wiring) do in fact create a fire hazard greater than
copper wire. I also know that a lot of people state that aluminum
wiring does not pose any greater risk than copper if done properly.
What I'm interested in is what is "done properly" and have there been
tests done on such "proper" wiring methods to prove that they do in
fact pose no increased fire hazard?

So in other words, what I'm looking for is published (on paper,
internet, etc.) information from reputable sources that would refute
the claims made by the information that I've already read making
aluminum out to be a fire hazard. A lot of the information I've read
so far can be found at www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

Thanks for the input,
Harry


1971 was a particularly bad year. Aluminum wiring is just fine for
feeders, service entrance conductors, and other large capacity circuits
(generally, 30A and larger). The biggest problem was with 15A devices
sold until about 1972 -- it was impossible to make a proper connection
with aluminum wire that would not oxidize and eventually fail. Aluminum
wiring to an electric stove, clothes drier, central A/C, water heater,
or subpanel is probably OK (the terminals will be listed something like
"CU-AL" or "AL7CU")

There are new (expensive) replacement devices that are listed for use
with copper or aluminum wire that are marked "CO-ALR" (if I recall
correctly) that can be used on aluminum 15A branch circuits without
needing copper or copper-clad pigtails.

I believe the CO-ALR devices is a better retrofit than adding a copper
pigtail unless you get special crimp connectors made especially for
joining small aluminum-to-copper conductors.

I would not live in a house with 15A aluminum branch circuits unless
*every* connection had been inspected and upgraded as necessary. I
would rip the "easy" ones out completely and replace with copper.

Best regards,
Bob (not an electrician, just opinionated :-)

According to zxcvbob :
1971 was a particularly bad year. Aluminum wiring is just fine for
feeders, service entrance conductors, and other large capacity circuits
(generally, 30A and larger). The biggest problem was with 15A devices
sold until about 1972 -- it was impossible to make a proper connection
with aluminum wire that would not oxidize and eventually fail.

If it was done _correctly_, Al wiring has always been safe. Cu/AL rated
connectors/devices have been around as long as Al wire has. The problem
mostly being craftsmen who didn't follow the rules, and Al being less
forgiving of poor workmanship.

Aluminum
wiring to an electric stove, clothes drier, central A/C, water heater,
or subpanel is probably OK (the terminals will be listed something like
"CU-AL" or "AL7CU")

BTW: "CU-AL" designations are largely obsolete, electrical standards
now primarily call for CO-ALR. Considered better than CU-AL, but CU-AL
is still okay

I believe the CO-ALR devices is a better retrofit than adding a copper
pigtail unless you get special crimp connectors made especially for
joining small aluminum-to-copper conductors.

Canada has always accepted CO-ALR wirenuts alone (without anti-oxidant
grease) for routine 15A circuits. But the wirenuts are becoming harder
and harder to find and are quite expensive (compared to ordinary ones).

[Larger Al connections require appropriatedly rated terminal connectors/
clamp devices, and anti-oxidant grease like in the US.]

US code appears to have been fluctuating rather a lot in regards to
copper pigtailing. At one point at least, the ONLY legal way to pigtail
Al to copper was with a very specialized crimp connector (~$5-10 _each_)
and an expensive crimping tool ($500). IIRC, the "system" was
manufactured by "AMP", and they wouldn't sell you the stuff unless
you took a course on how to use it.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).

Thanks,
Harry

***

Chris Lewis Aug 10, 9:54 am

According to zxcvbob :

1971 was a particularly bad year. Aluminum wiring is just fine for
feeders, service entrance conductors, and other large capacity circuits
(generally, 30A and larger). The biggest problem was with 15A devices
sold until about 1972 -- it was impossible to make a proper connection
with aluminum wire that would not oxidize and eventually fail.


If it was done _correctly_, Al wiring has always been safe. Cu/AL
rated
connectors/devices have been around as long as Al wire has. The
problem
mostly being craftsmen who didn't follow the rules, and Al being less
forgiving of poor workmanship.


Aluminum
wiring to an electric stove, clothes drier, central A/C, water heater,
or subpanel is probably OK (the terminals will be listed something like
"CU-AL" or "AL7CU")


BTW: "CU-AL" designations are largely obsolete, electrical standards
now primarily call for CO-ALR. Considered better than CU-AL, but CU-AL

is still okay


I believe the CO-ALR devices is a better retrofit than adding a copper
pigtail unless you get special crimp connectors made especially for
joining small aluminum-to-copper conductors.


Canada has always accepted CO-ALR wirenuts alone (without anti-oxidant
grease) for routine 15A circuits. But the wirenuts are becoming harder

and harder to find and are quite expensive (compared to ordinary ones).


[Larger Al connections require appropriatedly rated terminal
connectors/
clamp devices, and anti-oxidant grease like in the US.]


US code appears to have been fluctuating rather a lot in regards to
copper pigtailing. At one point at least, the ONLY legal way to
pigtail
Al to copper was with a very specialized crimp connector (~$5-10
_each_)
and an expensive crimping tool ($500). IIRC, the "system" was
manufactured by "AMP", and they wouldn't sell you the stuff unless
you took a course on how to use it.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after
them.

Harry Muscle wrote:

OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).

1. NOTHING is "completely" safe. URL listing means only that the
components passed the specific tests as certified. How valid those
tests are under "field" as opposed to "laboratory" conditions is only
one of the many issues involved.

2. There's an assumption that the cases of failure noted are comparable
installations to those of the UL tests. That may or may not be the
case.

To answer such a general question would take a great deal of research
into the bases for the tests and the conditions down to almost a
sample-by-sample basis.

From a quick glance at the site you reference, I'm not sure exactly how
objective it is--it seems at first blush to be dedicated to the
proposition that Al wiring is unsafe. Not saying it's not, just that
to confirm/deny any of the alllegations there would take a significant
amount of effort/time I don't have.

I don't know if this is an aluminum thing or not, but many electric service
connections are aluminum. These done properly are applied with aluminum
wire goop and then the connections are torqued to main panel manufacturer's
specifications.

Yet it is not uncommon for these connections to become loose and need to be
re-torqued.

The question is: Does this occur more so with aluminum main service wiring
than with copper main service wiring?

Harry Muscle wrote:

OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).

I know now what bugged me about the site...wonder if it's a front for or
being run in conjunction with a lawyer or firm looking for ammunition
for class liability lawsuit...

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Harry Muscle wrote:

OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).


I know now what bugged me about the site...wonder if it's a front for or
being run in conjunction with a lawyer or firm looking for ammunition
for class liability lawsuit...

The site is run by a home inspector. His interest is that home
inspectors encounter conditions that may be a hazard and should be
reported in an inspection report. The site collects information and has
web links on a number of issues.

On aluminum a lot of the information comes from the US Consumer Product
Safety Commision and Jesse Aronstein, PH.D., P.E., who was a vice
president at Wright-Malta Corp. Wright-Malta is a test laboratory that
did extensive testing on aluminum wiring and associated devices. (The
also did some testing on FPE circuit breakers for the CSPC.) I see no
evidence that the inspect-ny web site is other than an honest attept to
furnish unbiased information.

Bud--

According to Harry Muscle :
OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).

People should probably remember that once someone has expressed an opinion
in "their field", they tend to vociferously defend it, often well after
it's been proven wrong. Notice the study on Ideal wirenuts was done
by the author of the site.

I'm frankly a bit confused by the stuff about the Ideal wirenut.

It's being summarized as "The Ideal #65 wirenut doesn't meet UL test XYZ"

Yet, the _only_ "real" response from UL is to say "You seem to be asking
us to add more tests to UL XYZ". In otherwords, UL is implying that
the tests do _not_ invalidate the UL test, the author of the test is
doing something _different_.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I don't think the author of this page is the same guy as who did the
tests ... unless I'm not seeing something you're seeing.

Thanks,
Harry

Harry Muscle wrote:

OK, what I don't understand then is why a testing agency is able to
proof that for example a wirenut approved for aluminum can fail when
installed properly and under normal conditions. If this wire nut is
part of the "proper" methods involved in installing aluminum wiring,
and when done properly is supposed to be completely safe, then why are
they able to prove that it's unsafe?

I'm specifically refering to the information on the Ideal wire nuts
presented here www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm (about half way down the
page).

Thanks,
Harry


The argument by the US Comsumer Product Safety Council was that the test
standard from UL was not adequate to test aluminum. Issues included
using 'current' aluminum wire instead of wire that was used before 1971.
Also that laboratory tests showed the wire nut (Ideal #65 Twister)
subject to failure (with the plastic body and the internal antioxidant
supporting fire). Part of the significance of this is that the Ideal
wire nut was probably the only wire nut listed by UL for use with
aluminum and copper. (Ideal has said the wire nut was not intended for
use in pigtailing retrofit application, but was intended for such
applications as connecting lighting fixtures and ceiling fans.)

One of the sites linked from inspect-ny is

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm

************************************************** *******************
IF YOU HAVE ALUMINUM WIRING I STRONGLY SUGGENT YOU LOOK AT THIS SITE.
************************************************** *******************

It is a paper writen by Jesse Aronstein P.E. who was a vice president at
Wright-Malta Corp. Wright Malta is a test laboratory did a lot of
testing of aluminum wire and associated devices for the CSPC and others.

The paper includes:
- aluminum wiring systems, including those installed after UL changed
the standards for wire and devices about 1971, are potential hazards
- information on COPALUM crimp connections referred to in other posts
(these probably can only be made by a electrician trained by the
manufacturer)
- what the problem is with wire nuts
- very specific information on using wirenuts to make connections to
a copper pigtail to connect to a device.
- existing wirenuts in an aluminum should be replaced
- very specific information on connections of aluminum wire to
switches and receptacles
- information on connecting aluminum wire to circuit breakers

Also other very useful information. It should be emphasized that this
information is based on tests, not conjecture. The paper was writen in 2000.

In information on FPE breakers, inspect-ny says that the CPSC tried to
regulate aluminum wire systems but was sued by the aluminum industry.
The courts found that aluminum wiring systems were not consumer products
and not subject to CPSC regulation (consumers do not buy significant
aluminum system products).
---------------------
Does anyone know what wirenuts, if any, are listed for aluminum and copper?

Bud-

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've moved into a house build in 1971 which is wired mainly with
aluminum wiring. I've read a handful of published information that
states that aluminum wiring (or more correctly, the connections made
with aluminum wiring) do in fact create a fire hazard greater than
copper wire. I also know that a lot of people state that aluminum
wiring does not pose any greater risk than copper if done properly.
What I'm interested in is what is "done properly" and have there been
tests done on such "proper" wiring methods to prove that they do in
fact pose no increased fire hazard?

So in other words, what I'm looking for is published (on paper,
internet, etc.) information from reputable sources that would refute
the claims made by the information that I've already read making
aluminum out to be a fire hazard. A lot of the information I've read
so far can be found at www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

Thanks for the input,
Harry


Sounds like you're trying to substantiate denial. Too many horror stories
of houses burning to the ground due to electrical wiring defects.

If you're trying to make a house addition or electrical mod, there's
connectors for AL-CU. Check local building code before using.

According to Harry Muscle :
I've moved into a house build in 1971 which is wired mainly with
aluminum wiring. I've read a handful of published information that
states that aluminum wiring (or more correctly, the connections made
with aluminum wiring) do in fact create a fire hazard greater than
copper wire. I also know that a lot of people state that aluminum
wiring does not pose any greater risk than copper if done properly.
What I'm interested in is what is "done properly" and have there been
tests done on such "proper" wiring methods to prove that they do in
fact pose no increased fire hazard?

So in other words, what I'm looking for is published (on paper,
internet, etc.) information from reputable sources that would refute
the claims made by the information that I've already read making
aluminum out to be a fire hazard. A lot of the information I've read
so far can be found at www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

What you're going to find out is that everybody agrees that Al done
improperly is a high risk. Then find that there is considerable disagreement
over whether Al "done properly" represents enough _more_ of a risk over
copper to be concerned about. So you're not going to find exactly
what you want in terms of "proof".

As for "done properly": This means, from code:

- devices with the old "CU-AL" or the newer "CO-ALR" ratings.
(primarily: outlets, switches and breaker terminals)
- copper pigtails to devices that aren't.
- Al-compatible wirenuts. COPALUM connectors if necessary
for Al to Cu connections.
- Each connection to a device (ie: outlets, switches, and some
breakers) MUST be via a screw terminal, with the wire wrapped
between 3/4 and 1 full turn. In other words, properly formed
loops. NEVER use push in terminals. Follow connection
requirements on breakers to the letter.
- wire must not be knicked, and minimally handled to avoid
work hardening.
- where appropriate the connections should have anti-oxidant
grease.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

OK, I think Arnold summarized things pretty well so far:

***

What you're going to find out is that everybody agrees that Al done
improperly is a high risk. Then find that there is considerable
disagreement
over whether Al "done properly" represents enough _more_ of a risk over

copper to be concerned about. So you're not going to find exactly
what you want in terms of "proof".

***

So in other words, AL wiring can be made safer, but even done properly
it's very possible that it will never be as safe as copper .... with
the possible exception of using the COPALUM tool ... no one seems to
have ever been able to show that a connection made with the COPALUM
tool can fail under normal conditions ... which would coincide with
what SQLit said about hydrolic pressed connections never failing, since
the COPALUM is basically that, a hydrolic crimping tool.

Thanks for everyone's input,
Harry

Oops, that wasn't Arnold that said that, it was Chris Lewis ... sorry
about that.

Harry

Chris Lewis wrote:

As for "done properly": This means, from code:

- devices with the old "CU-AL" or the newer "CO-ALR" ratings.
(primarily: outlets, switches and breaker terminals)
- copper pigtails to devices that aren't.
- Al-compatible wirenuts. COPALUM connectors if necessary
for Al to Cu connections.
- Each connection to a device (ie: outlets, switches, and some
breakers) MUST be via a screw terminal, with the wire wrapped
between 3/4 and 1 full turn. In other words, properly formed
loops. NEVER use push in terminals. Follow connection
requirements on breakers to the letter.
- wire must not be knicked, and minimally handled to avoid
work hardening.


- where appropriate the connections should have anti-oxidant
grease.

Is there any input on the life of anti-oxidant greased connections? In
other words, will the grease dry out over time and cease it's
anti-oxidation properties?
Having a AL wired house and not trusting mass produced housing
workmanship, I went through the entire house, removed all connections,
cleaned them, used anti-oxidant, and insured tight connections when I
reconnected. But that was 20 years ago. I've never had any problems,
but I'm wondering if going through and doing it again is necessary, or
maybe even a bad idea.
Bob S.