"Ken Hall" wrote in message

Question 1:
I read you should replace the cheesy plastic drain cock with a ball
valve so you can get full flow when draining the heater. But, there's
some kind of safety cover over the drain cock that prevents putting
ball valves (which are larger) on them. So, if you can't do it, why
is it recommended?

Because it is a good idea if done properly. Sounds like they don't want you
to in this case.

Question 2:
This is a self-cleaning unit. Do you drain self cleaning units? Is
so, doesn't that mean they're not self cleaning?

This is probably the reason they don't want you to change the valves. I
have no idea how well this works.



Question 3:
Sure enough when he cracked open one of the connections a
lot more water drained out. Why does a connection at the heater
have to be opened to get it to drain completely?

Vacuum. Put a straw in a glass of water. Put your finger over the end and
lift it out. Same thing with the heater. If air is not allowed in, the
water cannot get out.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Ken Hall" wrote in message

Question 1:
I read you should replace the cheesy plastic drain cock with a ball
valve so you can get full flow when draining the heater. But, there's
some kind of safety cover over the drain cock that prevents putting
ball valves (which are larger) on them. So, if you can't do it, why
is it recommended?

Because it is a good idea if done properly. Sounds like they don't want
you to in this case.

Question 2:
This is a self-cleaning unit. Do you drain self cleaning units? Is
so, doesn't that mean they're not self cleaning?

This is probably the reason they don't want you to change the valves. I
have no idea how well this works.



Question 3:
Sure enough when he cracked open one of the connections a
lot more water drained out. Why does a connection at the heater
have to be opened to get it to drain completely?

Vacuum. Put a straw in a glass of water. Put your finger over the end
and lift it out. Same thing with the heater. If air is not allowed in,
the water cannot get out.

You can open the relief valve to make it drain quicker IF you are draining
one you are going to replace. I would advise you NOT to open the relief
valve on one that you are just draining (for clean-out). I have seen too
many of them that do not seat (or seal) properly once this has been done and
then you end up with an annoying drip.

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:27:58 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:

Vacuum. Put a straw in a glass of water. Put your finger over the end
and lift it out. Same thing with the heater. If air is not allowed in,
the water cannot get out.

You can open the relief valve to make it drain quicker IF you are draining
one you are going to replace. I would advise you NOT to open the relief
valve on one that you are just draining (for clean-out). I have seen too
many of them that do not seat (or seal) properly once this has been done
and
then you end up with an annoying drip.

I agree with both statements, but I ask you the same question -- why
doesn't opening hot water faucets also work?

That'll work too....

In my house the vacum was enuf to stop the flow from the 3 feet of water
left in the tank, but not high enuf to lift the big slug of water in the
pipes going to the faucets. I blew hard on the a hose hooked to one of the
faucets and got the slug of water to drain back into the tank so the air
could get thru.
..
"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:27:58 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:

Vacuum. Put a straw in a glass of water. Put your finger over the end
and lift it out. Same thing with the heater. If air is not allowed
in,
the water cannot get out.

You can open the relief valve to make it drain quicker IF you are
draining
one you are going to replace. I would advise you NOT to open the relief
valve on one that you are just draining (for clean-out). I have seen too
many of them that do not seat (or seal) properly once this has been done
and
then you end up with an annoying drip.

I agree with both statements, but I ask you the same question -- why
doesn't opening hot water faucets also work?

Ken

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
Vacuum. Put a straw in a glass of water. Put your finger over the end
and
lift it out. Same thing with the heater. If air is not allowed in, the
water cannot get out.

Why doesn't opening hot water faucets prevent/releive the vacuum?

Ken

The hot water faucets are the bottom of the straw, You need to open the
top. You can open ten faucets, but they are all fed from the same line
coming out of the tank and no way to get air back into it.

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 May 2005 02:36:24 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:
I agree with both statements, but I ask you the same question -- why
doesn't opening hot water faucets also work?

That'll work too....

But that's the reason for question 3 -- it didn't work


Ken

Even if you relieve the partial vacuum that will form in the water heater
tank the dip tube probably doesn't reach completely to the bottom of the
tank, so it wouldn't siphon all the water out either.

Never thought of a water heater overhead in the attic. Usually they have to
be pumped out from the basement around here.

They have a lot of water heaters in attics here. Even with emergency
pans under them, if they leak, often the ceiling will come down. It
depends on how bad the leak is. Then they usually get moved to a
garage or laundry room.

The self cleaning water heaters like the "Sand Blaster" have a curved
dip tube that swirls the water in the bottom of the tank when you draw
hot water. The sediment comes back out the faucets as disolved solids.
This way you don't have to drain the tank. It would be very hard to
change the curved dip tube but the anode rod should not be a problem if
there is enough clearance above the tank.

Stretch

First thought was BS!

Assuming the hose was hooked direct to the WH outlet, opening a hot
water faucet in the system should have drained the tank. There is
enough pressure in a column of water pushing down to suck the water out
of the pipes to let water in.

And then I thought about it. Assuming a tank in the attic (3rd floor)
that is 4ft high you only have a 4ft (about) column of water trying to
suck a 20 ft column of water out of the pipes.

Then another thought. Why wouldn't the water drain out of the faucet
on the first floor?? The hose connection provides for air back into
the tank.

I think I'll quit, my head hurts.

Harry K

On Wed, 04 May 2005 21:43:08 -0500, someone wrote:


That'll work too....

But that's the reason for question 3 -- it didn't work

Depending on the layout of your piping, it might or might not. The
pipes are full of water. If there are valleys in the piping, the
gravity drain can't suck them back up to the heater. Since yours is
in the attic, the plumber thought this was likely. Mine is in the
basement where it is more likely to work but still not assured.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

Dr. Hardcrab wrote:

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
....

I agree with both statements, but I ask you the same question -- why
doesn't opening hot water faucets also work?

That'll work too....

But probably not if the water heater is above the faucet, i.e., in
the attic.
--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555

On 5 May 2005 08:20:20 -0700, someone wrote:

I think I'll quit, my head hurts.

Harry K

Harry, the piping in the house isn't necessarily arranged to be
pitched uniformly to either end. It could easily run up and down such
that there are low point or entire runs filled with water even if each
end is drained.

Some houses, the opening both ends thing could work, most it would
not, as some additional energy would be needed to blow or suck the
standing water out of the low areas.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

Harry, the piping in the house isn't necessarily arranged to be
pitched uniformly to either end. It could easily run up and down such
that there are low point or entire runs filled with water even if each
end is drained.

THAT should not happen. If you need to run pipe such that
there's a low loop in it, there should be a
drain of some kind at the bottom of it.

Ken Hall wrote:
I've just had a new water heater installed and I have some questions.

Question 1:
I read you should replace the cheesy plastic drain cock with a ball
valve so you can get full flow when draining the heater. But,
there's
some kind of safety cover over the drain cock that prevents putting
ball valves (which are larger) on them. So, if you can't do it, why
is it recommended?

Question 2:
This is a self-cleaning unit. Do you drain self cleaning units? Is
so, doesn't that mean they're not self cleaning?

Question 3:
My old unit had begun to leak. It's in the attic and I REALLY didn't
want a sudden dump, so I turned off the supply valve at the heater,
connected a garden hose, opened a couple of hot water faucets and
drained it. I left the hose connected. When the plumber arrived left
it connected saying it still needed to be drained. I asked him why
and he said, "You can't drain it without opening a water connection
at
the unit." Sure enough when he cracked open one of the connections a
lot more water drained out. Why does a connection at the heater
have to be opened to get it to drain completely?

Question 4:
I would like to be able to replace the anode in a few years, but when
I've tried to remove anodes on heaters in the past I simply couldn't
get them to come loose (unscrew). Would it be better to remove it
now
while it's new, and put some Teflon tape or something on it to make
it
easier later?

Ken

Did you ever consider a tankless water heater? They are not alot ($ up
front) more than a good tank style heater but alot less maintenance as
well as a heck of alot cheeper to run. No tank draining, No TPR valve,
No tank to rot out, No anode to change. All around a better deal. In
europe Tank style heaters are considered antque. almost all houses
there are built new with tankless heaters. Just something to think
about.

On Thu, 05 May 2005 15:19:12 -0400, someone wrote:

THAT should not happen. If you need to run pipe such that
there's a low loop in it, there should be a
drain of some kind at the bottom of it.

I'd wager it happens more often than you seem to think. I'd say the
average house is just not piped such that being able to gravity drain
the pipes is a controlling consideration. And after the pipes are
roughed in, the walls are sheetrocked and the pipes are covered; no
drain points. Maybe a small house intended to be "seasonal" is set up
so the pipes can be easily drained, but the average house is never
expected to freeze inside.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

THAT should not happen. If you need to run pipe such that
there's a low loop in it, there should be a
drain of some kind at the bottom of it.

I'd wager it happens more often than you seem to think. I'd say the
average house is just not piped such that being able to gravity drain

Sorry, I didn't mean to indicate that it DIDN'T happen,
just that when it does, it's wrong. If there's
a low loop that you need to get water out of, the
correct solution is to cut a segment out, and install
a shutoff with a waste-cap.

"briz" wrote:

Did you ever consider a tankless water heater? They are not alot ($ up
front) more than a good tank style heater but alot less maintenance as
well as a heck of alot cheeper to run.

Sorry, they are considerably more expensive than a storage tank heater.
Especially in a retrofit situation, but even in new construction.

No tank draining,

How often exactly to you drain your storage heater? Excluding vacation homes
(where all the plumbing would need to be drained) the only time I've ever done
it is when I replaced a 20 year old unit.

No TPR valve,

I've never had to replace one.

No tank to rot out,

Modern storage tank heaters are glass lined and self cleaning. If you don't get
a minimum of 20 years use out of one, you aren't trying.

No anode to change.

WTF???? If you are changing anodes on a residential water heater, you have far
more problems with the rest of your household plumbing that you need to be
worrying about.

All around a better deal.

You don't really have any experience with tankless heaters, do you?

In europe Tank style heaters are considered antque. almost all houses
there are built new with tankless heaters.

No, in Europe they have a lot of older housing stock with construction that
makes it difficult to run insulated hot water lines. There are other factors
that come into play as well.

Most of the new residential housing I've seen in the UK uses storage tanks.
Here's an example:

http://www.primelocation.com/new-homes/browse/all/uk/england/essex/chelmsford/BIca213721/

Go down to the plumbing section and note the words: "Each apartment includes an
insulated hot water cylinder, with electric emersion heater back-up." A Google
search on "hot water cylinder" will yield many other references.

Just something to think about.

And if you would like some factual information, you can download this study:

http://www.stateind.com/new/Tankless_WhitePaper.pdf

State builds both types of heaters, so they have no particular reason to favor
one type over another.

The bottom line is that except for a few specific circumstances, storage tank
heaters are cheaper to install and operate over a given period of time than
tankless.

On Fri, 06 May 2005 16:59:15 -0600, someone wrote:

The bottom line is that except for a few specific circumstances, storage tank
heaters are cheaper to install and operate over a given period of time than
tankless.

And that makes a LOT of sense in general principle. To get tankless
to work, you are installing a HUGE capacity heater, that will only run
for minutes a day. Waster capacity. And then it is way oversized for
low flow situations.

OTOH, using a tank, you run a much smaller heating element, just for
longer periods. And you store the warmed water. The relevant balance
would be between the cost of the storage loss, and the cost of the
huge capacity heater unit. In "normal" use where hot water is used at
various times of each day, apparently a storage tank does pretty well.

BTW, in Europe, often energy costs are higher due to tax structure,
and people are apparently willing to put up with more (living with the
limitations of a tankless unit's performance characteritics) for
economy. Hey, in Europe, manual transmission in cars are much more
common. In the US we tend to have relatively luxurious housing, even
of our total incomes are no longer the envy of the world.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.