I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now,
I wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That
way, if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?

JeffM wrote:
lotsa lightning
on the lines strung out hundreds of feet above the valley floors.
3rd UPS crap out in 2 years.
Day Brown

Find a surplus motor/generator set or else build one.
...the switch over glitches will be minor...mechanical inertia
Al


Turn-key solutions:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flywh...ntadyne+Piller

I've already got an AC generator... with a hung valve from it sitting
up so much. and yeah, I'll prolly pull the side cover, hoping I dont
havta pull the head to free the valve. No 220, but I dont have anything
that needs 220 anyway.

As for fire insurance. out in the boondocks its really expensive. I've
seen dozens of burned out houses. By the time the volunteer fire dept
gets there the only thing they can do is keep the woods from catching
on fire.

Just in general, I'm kinda doubtful that engineers who live in urban
areas and work in modern labs, really understand the problems of remote
rural environments. The blower fans used to cool equipment crap out
because the rural environment is so dusty. I'd prefer an open frame
design with passive heatsinking. The mineraturization engineers use
just causes problems. I got prolly got 100 cubic foot of space under
the desk, and saving a few inches makes no sense to me.

I hate the noise from the blowers as well. Out here, its so quiet, that
if you open the doors, you can hear a car radio 1/4 mile away. An open
frame design, with modular oscillator, inductor, full wave bridges, and
MOSFETs could easily use radiant heat sinks, and other than a barely
perceptible (like with a stethescope) would be gonzo easier to trouble-
shoot with a fairly wide set of component suppliers if something does
fry. I dont havta trade-off efficiency for space or weight either.

Jeremy wrote:
You can buy 12V PSUs that are meant for in-car computers. Something like
that might be what you want. Here's a link to a 150Watt one.

http://www.opussolutions.com/modules...article&sid=23
Any other hints?
Well thanx! Yer rite, I mite try it. 164$ is gonzo more than a UPS, but
theoretically could be much more robust. Course then there's the
batteries and charger and inverter for the monitor... But I'll keep the
link while I look over the options.

You can buy 12V PSUs that are meant for in-car computers. Something like
that might be what you want. Here's a link to a 150Watt one.

http://www.opussolutions.com/modules...article&sid=23

Jeremy



Day Brown wrote:
I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now,
I wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That
way, if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?

"Day Brown" wrote in message
...
I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now, I
wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That way,
if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?


Well, you could spend a lot of time and money doing that but I'm not sure if
the homeowner's insurance will cover the fire damage.



Or



http://www.apc.com/resource/include/..._sku=SU3000NET



You didn't mention how large your load is, there are larger models. They
come with a warranty and a connected equipment guarantee.



I think you just need the correct UPS for the job. This is just one
example.



Here is a runtime chart. Figure out your load pick how much runtime you
want and get out your checkbook. Runtime gets expensive.. Usually, the
idea is to buy enough runtime to give you time to get things shut down
properly.



http://www.apc.com/products/runtime_...?upsfamily=165


I think if you try to get by on the cheap, you'll get what you pay for.

Maybe even consider a whole house standby generator and power conditioning
system. Have the generator installed by a licensed electrical contractor
with an automatic switching if you lose the company supplied power. The
power conditioning system should be able to handle the 240 AC input for the
supplier, filter and condition it to minimize much for the variation you are
experiencing. Again a job for the professionals.
"DBLEXPOSURE" wrote in message
...

"Day Brown" wrote in message
...
I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now, I
wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That way,
if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?


Well, you could spend a lot of time and money doing that but I'm not sure
if the homeowner's insurance will cover the fire damage.



Or



http://www.apc.com/resource/include/..._sku=SU3000NET



You didn't mention how large your load is, there are larger models. They
come with a warranty and a connected equipment guarantee.



I think you just need the correct UPS for the job. This is just one
example.



Here is a runtime chart. Figure out your load pick how much runtime you
want and get out your checkbook. Runtime gets expensive.. Usually, the
idea is to buy enough runtime to give you time to get things shut down
properly.



http://www.apc.com/products/runtime_...?upsfamily=165


I think if you try to get by on the cheap, you'll get what you pay for.

In article ,
Day Brown wrote:

I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now,
I wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That
way, if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?


Find a surplus motor/generator set or else build one. You can have an AC
motor drive a DC motor/generator and an AC generator. The AC motor
provides power when public power is more or less normal. The DC
motor/generator is used to keep the batteries charged. The AC generator
powers your equipment. If power is lost to the AC motor, the DC
motor/genarator becomes a motor and continues to drive your AC
generator. If designed properly, the switch over glitches will be minor
and should not bother your equipment. The mechanical inertia of the
system along with proper feedback controls should be able to maintain a
more or less constant output on your AC generator.

I know it works as I have worked on military systems which use this
scheme.

Al

"DBLEXPOSURE" wrote in message
...

"Day Brown" wrote in message
...
I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now, I
wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That way,
if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?


Well, you could spend a lot of time and money doing that but I'm not sure
if the homeowner's insurance will cover the fire damage.



Or



http://www.apc.com/resource/include/..._sku=SU3000NET



You didn't mention how large your load is, there are larger models. They
come with a warranty and a connected equipment guarantee.



I think you just need the correct UPS for the job. This is just one
example.



Here is a runtime chart. Figure out your load pick how much runtime you
want and get out your checkbook. Runtime gets expensive.. Usually, the
idea is to buy enough runtime to give you time to get things shut down
properly.



http://www.apc.com/products/runtime_...?upsfamily=165


I think if you try to get by on the cheap, you'll get what you pay for.



You may also want to consider protecting the entire house by installing
surge protection at the service entrance.

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=175

lotsa lightning
on the lines strung out hundreds of feet above the valley floors.
3rd UPS crap out in 2 years.
Day Brown

Find a surplus motor/generator set or else build one.
...the switch over glitches will be minor...mechanical inertia
Al

Turn-key solutions:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flywh...ntadyne+Piller

"Day Brown" wrote in message
news
JeffM wrote:
lotsa lightning
on the lines strung out hundreds of feet above the valley floors.
3rd UPS crap out in 2 years.
Day Brown

Find a surplus motor/generator set or else build one.
...the switch over glitches will be minor...mechanical inertia
Al


Turn-key solutions:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flywh...ntadyne+Piller

I've already got an AC generator... with a hung valve from it sitting
up so much. and yeah, I'll prolly pull the side cover, hoping I dont
havta pull the head to free the valve. No 220, but I dont have anything
that needs 220 anyway.

As for fire insurance. out in the boondocks its really expensive. I've
seen dozens of burned out houses. By the time the volunteer fire dept
gets there the only thing they can do is keep the woods from catching
on fire.

Just in general, I'm kinda doubtful that engineers who live in urban
areas and work in modern labs, really understand the problems of remote
rural environments. The blower fans used to cool equipment crap out
because the rural environment is so dusty. I'd prefer an open frame
design with passive heatsinking. The mineraturization engineers use
just causes problems. I got prolly got 100 cubic foot of space under
the desk, and saving a few inches makes no sense to me.

I hate the noise from the blowers as well. Out here, its so quiet, that
if you open the doors, you can hear a car radio 1/4 mile away. An open
frame design, with modular oscillator, inductor, full wave bridges, and
MOSFETs could easily use radiant heat sinks, and other than a barely
perceptible (like with a stethescope) would be gonzo easier to trouble-
shoot with a fairly wide set of component suppliers if something does
fry. I dont havta trade-off efficiency for space or weight either.

-----------
Just in general, I'm kinda doubtful that engineers who live in urban
areas and work in modern labs, really understand the problems of remote
rural environments

Well, I am not trying to talk you out of or into anything but South Dakota
has many of the same troubles as you are experiencing. I have to deal with
many troubled farmers and ranchers with smoked UPS's and fried computers.



I think it would be worth your time to call em up and speak with an engineer
about your problems. I do understand the desire to want to build your own,
but believe me. These guys have been building power systems for along time
and they know their stuff.



What kinda computin are ya doin up in them thar hills anyway? Sounds like a
peaceful place, Somewhere I might go to get away from
computers..............

DBLEXPOSURE wrote:
Well, I am not trying to talk you out of or into anything but South Dakota
has many of the same troubles as you are experiencing. I have to deal with
many troubled farmers and ranchers with smoked UPS's and fried computers.
I dont doubt their expertise... within their field. But hey- only 2% of us
live in rural areas. You cant find a cordless phone that'll work more
than a couple hundred feet from the house. The vast majority of surge
suckers use CMOS, which is ok in the city, but every time it takes a
spike, it takes a little functionality, and out in my neck of Ozark
woods, after a year or so, the CMOS is diddly protection. Engineers in
urban office parks dont think about that.

I think it would be worth your time to call em up and speak with an engineer
about your problems. I do understand the desire to want to build your own,
but believe me. These guys have been building power systems for along time
and they know their stuff.
Well, yeah, for rack mounts. They dont even think about the sacrifice of
functionality trying to cram a few more components on a smaller board.
It aint like I'm a newbie at this. Got a comp sci minor in 1971, and
went to RIT in Roachfester NY for post grad work in 1981 just in time
to see the new personal desktop pc.

What kinda computin are ya doin up in them thar hills anyway? Sounds like a
peaceful place, Somewhere I might go to get away from
computers..............
I was born on a farm in 1939, and have lived in the Ozarks for most of
the last 30 years. Off the grid. Running PCs off solar power. Hadda run
a mile of my own phone wire to get on FIDO. but then, in 1996, a brush
fire took my house. So now, I'm in a trailer on the very end of the
grid. I wouldnt bother with this dc power supply issue, but in recent
years I've noticed lotsa flatland early retiree x-military/civil service
folks moving in, many as far back as they can get as if they know that
the proverbial schitt will hit the fan.

I dunno if that will happen, but I see a market niche for solar powered
PC desktops, that being off the grid, cant be zapped by it. Laptops work
for a while, but are less reliable and expensive to upgrade or repair.
ISA ATX easily accepts all the standard peripherals, and I wanna stay
with that same open architecture in the power supply.

seems like it aint rocket science. the oscillators are available from a
zillion suppliers at any frequency. Point: the professional engineer
would never think of using a lower and slightly audible frequency so a
user could satisfy himself with a ear to the unit, just like with an
ordinary 110 AC transformer, that the damn thing is on. No- the spec
sheets on SWPS over the years has kept on climbing to ever higher
frequencies... 200k last time I looked, to save a few grams on the
weight of the inductors, and thus two bits on the cost/unit. Cheeze.

And if you want a high amp MOSFET, it gets more expensive to respond to
the load at higher frequencies, and you get snubbing problems from the
slope that look a lot like AC line spikes. They dont wanna use heavy
batteries and inductors because of the strain on the frame during FED-X
shipping, and they want the profit from selling replacement custom
batteries to the end user. Why pay FED-X to ship lead when you can go
down to your local industrial battery supplier and get 5 times the back
up time/power for the same money?

When I ran a pc off solar, it was 486; 20 watts for cpu/mthbd. Nowadays,
Intel sells CPUs that alone need 80+. Yet the UPS sold still have 12v
batteries. Trying to suck that many watts at 12v means lotsa amps, which
means lotsa heat and lower efficiency. A pair of 12volt car or garden
tractor batteries would more than double the available power and halve
the amps, and- not waste power on blowers.

And yeah, its so peaceful, I hate the blower noise. I run with the hood
off, open frame SMPS with no blower. And if there is a crash, I'll use
the PC to run off help wanted posters- for guys to help me protect and
distribute moonshine. Nobody burns down a distillery. I'm growing the
soghum this year to get enough seed to grow enough next year for a few
hundred gallons of rum. There's a ready market... lotsa dry counties
thanx to the Bapitist preachers. The cops are so busy with crank they've
given up on moonshine and marijuanna.

Meantime, I'm just asking around. And like that link to the 12v PS for
autos. Quick and dirty solution. I dunno about the MTBF, folks havnt
run PCs in cars that long.

JeffM wrote:
The vast majority of surge suckers use CMOS,
...but every time it takes a spike, it takes a little functionality,
...after a year or so, the CMOS is diddly protection.
Day Brown


The facts are correct; the acronym is wrong.
MOV == Metal Oxide Varistor.

rite. sorry bout that. whatcha get from writing off the seat of my pants.

rayjking wrote:
Day,

Have you tried a Ferro-resonant ( Solar is the most popular brand )
voltage regulator?
Lightning does not easily go through these regulators. They are big, heavy,
the out put wave form is not perfect and low tech but they protect the out
put loads.

I think they are in the UPS, which has both the AC and telco jax. But
two of the UPS now have had the 'bad battery' lite come on, and wont
backup during a blackout. Even tho the batteries are fine.

Another UPS developed a problem with the telco side, and wont pass the
signal on to a modem. I'm at the very end of the grids; there's a telco
post in the yard which has their own solid state suppressors less than
100 foot of buried cable from the terminal in the house. you'd think
that living in a trailer with a metal frame and metal siding would help,
but not that I've seen.

The last power pole, with the meter loop is only 8 foot from the corner
of the trailer, and both they and the phone company have driven in
ground rods where my own wiring hooks in.

I've considered making an infra-red transducer for the phone line so
that there is no wire-to-wire connection. Anyone see this for sale?

The vast majority of surge suckers use CMOS,
...but every time it takes a spike, it takes a little functionality,
...after a year or so, the CMOS is diddly protection.
Day Brown

The facts are correct; the acronym is wrong.
MOV == Metal Oxide Varistor.

Day,

Have you tried a Ferro-resonant ( Solar is the most popular brand )
voltage regulator?
Lightning does not easily go through these regulators. They are big, heavy,
the out put wave form is not perfect and low tech but they protect the out
put loads.

Ray





"Day Brown" wrote in message
...
I live out in the ozark boonies, at the very end of the grid with
really dirty power and lotsa lightning on the lines strung out hundreds
of feet above the valley floors.

And now, we've got the 3rd UPS crap out in 2 years. Getting old.
Besides, the usual 20 minutes backup sux. Power's often out for 1/2 hour
or more.

Well, I could hook up an inverter to run the systems off, and then hook
up a large battery charger to keep the battery fully charged. But, now,
I wonder if it wouldnt make more sense to yank the PC power supply out
of the case, and use two 12 volt car batteries in series to run the PC
motherboard with a 24 volt charger. Gonzo more efficient.

Center tap the series to get the +12 and the -12 the motherboard wants,
and then use DC-DC converters to get the +5,-5, and the +3.3 vdc...
but given the amps on the +5 and +3.3vdc, it'd be nice to use 24vdc to
power the DC converters. the high amp low voltage DC converters are
kinda expensive. And besides, I got plenty of room under this desk; it
could be the size of a shoebox or more. I dont see any sense in paying
more for something they designed to fit in a rack frame.

So, lessee if this makes sense. use a low frequency oscillator. That
way, if it aint oscillating, I can *hear* that, and dont havta drag out
the scope. so what if it needs a bigger ferrous core. Horse shoes aint
expensive. I got hundreds of feet of 12 awg wire. Got some 25 amp full
wave bridges. Use lotsa iron and copper and quit worrying about fast
snubbers to protect the MOSFETs.

And, between the gauss of, say a 10 amp 24 volt charger, and the ability
of the car batteries to soak up spikes, lighting would havta fry the
wires in the wall before it'd crash the system.

Any other hints?