Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch. The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp. The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.

Excellent webpage about fluorescent lamp theory, and how to wire them. There
are some ASCII type diagrams towards the bottom of the document. The
diagrams shown, are very standard.

http://members.misty.com/don/f-lamp.html#int0

--

Jerry G.
======


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch. The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp. The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.

Thanks for the reference. The diagrams help a lot.
Sean.

"Jerry G." wrote in message
...
Excellent webpage about fluorescent lamp theory, and how to wire them.
There
are some ASCII type diagrams towards the bottom of the document. The
diagrams shown, are very standard.

http://members.misty.com/don/f-lamp.html#int0

--

Jerry G.
======


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works
about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as
it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used
to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of
the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch.
The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom
right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp.
The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do
in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp
to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low
glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:14:32 GMT, "Sean" wrote:

Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch. The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp. The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

If I understand all this correctly the switch has four connections. Is
that correct? From your description is seems that this is a Preheat
(switch start) circuit and you will not be able to replace the
four-contact switch with a two-contact switch of any type. The switch
provides the functions of both power switch and starter switch. (It
must have three positions, even if one is momentary: Off, On, and
Start.) You could use a standard power switch and then a glow bottle
starter - if you can find one to match your lamp - but you would be
better off replacing the ballast with something more modern that can
be controlled with a simple series switch.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean

"Victor Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:14:32 GMT, "Sean" wrote:

Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works
about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as
it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used
to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of
the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch.
The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom
right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp.
The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do
in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp
to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low
glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

If I understand all this correctly the switch has four connections. Is
that correct? From your description is seems that this is a Preheat
(switch start) circuit and you will not be able to replace the
four-contact switch with a two-contact switch of any type. The switch
provides the functions of both power switch and starter switch. (It
must have three positions, even if one is momentary: Off, On, and
Start.) You could use a standard power switch and then a glow bottle
starter - if you can find one to match your lamp - but you would be
better off replacing the ballast with something more modern that can
be controlled with a simple series switch.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:44:12 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

But it must match his lamp. While the Op did not give us lamp data, he
indicated it was a 40-watt ballast. Therefore I am assuming the lamp
is a 40-watt or 34-watt lamp (until I get better information.) If the
OP lives in the US, I do not believe he can purchase a glow starter
for 40-watt lamps since they will not operate from 120 volt power
supplies. if the OP lives in a part of the work where the normal
supply voltage is 220 to 240 volts, he should be able to find a glow
starter.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

"Victor Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:44:12 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

But it must match his lamp. While the Op did not give us lamp data, he
indicated it was a 40-watt ballast. Therefore I am assuming the lamp
is a 40-watt or 34-watt lamp (until I get better information.) If the
OP lives in the US, I do not believe he can purchase a glow starter
for 40-watt lamps since they will not operate from 120 volt power
supplies. if the OP lives in a part of the work where the normal
supply voltage is 220 to 240 volts, he should be able to find a glow
starter.

40W glowbottle starters are readily available in the US, they were widely
used up until the 70's when rapid start came out and there's still quite a
few old fixtures that use them. I have a 4 lamp 4' preheat fixture from the
60's that uses 120v autotransformer ballasts and glowbottle starters.

I have found also that starters are quite non critical, and I've used a 20W
starter in a pinch, though it likely wouldn't last as long.

"Victor Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:44:12 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

But it must match his lamp. While the Op did not give us lamp data, he
indicated it was a 40-watt ballast. Therefore I am assuming the lamp
is a 40-watt or 34-watt lamp (until I get better information.) If the
OP lives in the US, I do not believe he can purchase a glow starter
for 40-watt lamps since they will not operate from 120 volt power
supplies.** if the OP lives in a part of the work where the normal
supply voltage is 220 to 240 volts, he should be able to find a glow
starter.

Not sure if that ** is correct? Reason is I have some older non working
older type fluorescents fixtures that I intend to update and respray that
have those little aluminum can type starters that definitely worked on 115
AC.
Some others have been converted to use the more modern type of ballast that
does not require starter.
In fact 50 years ago IIRC most/many f.fixtures used starters. They had/have
a little neon and a resistor inside and yes you had to have the right kind
of starter.
The more modern ballast without the starter (not the even more modern
electronic) is a lot more convenient. My reason for renovating older
fixtures is that I've got a lifetime supply of good used and new ballasts!
Also about 100 tubes (which are not that expensive anyway) at least 60% of
which are good! And other useful bits. All that is needed is a bit of
sanding a can of white spray paint and some time.
And also yes the simple fluorescent on top of our cooking stove has that
push and hold to start pre-heat type switch. The ballast for the fluorescent
in that, AFIK, is just a choke (series inductor)?
Have fun.

I'll try and locate a glow bottle. I live in a small town in Canada, and
there is not a lot of selection in some of the local stores. I'll try Radio
Shack and the local lumberyard, but I am not holding my breath. I'll have to
wait until I can get down to the "Big City" and see if I can locate one
there.
How would I wire the glow bottle into the circuit that I described? (With
the intention that the light is "always" in On mode. The timer will be
taking care of turning it on and off.)
Thanks, Sean
"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:gEHYd.474$mq2.225@trnddc08...

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:49:53 GMT, "Sean" wrote:

I'll try and locate a glow bottle. I live in a small town in Canada, and
there is not a lot of selection in some of the local stores. I'll try Radio
Shack and the local lumberyard, but I am not holding my breath. I'll have to
wait until I can get down to the "Big City" and see if I can locate one
there.
How would I wire the glow bottle into the circuit that I described? (With
the intention that the light is "always" in On mode. The timer will be
taking care of turning it on and off.)

Someone else gave you a link to Don's lighting site. Look and the
second diagram under preheat start. That being said, you need more
information than you provided in your original note.

You will see from Don's diagram and perhaps your own experience, that
each end of the lamp has two pins. You have told us in your original
note that a certain wire goes to a certain end of the lamp, but NOT TO
WHICH PIN, which is critical.

Based on what you wrote, I THINK that the starter would wired to the
two wires that go respectively to the top left and top right contact
of your switch. But this is ONLY correct if the wire currently
connected to the top right hand contact of the switch is also
connected to the pin on the right side of the lamp that does NOT also
connect to the power line. I assume that the white lead from the
ballast goes to the SAME lamp pin as the power line, so there are two
wires connected to this AND ONLY THIS lamp pin.

If my assumptions about which wires go to which lamp pins are not
correct, then the rest of my suggestions should be ignored.

If the above is correct, then the timer switch is wired between the
two bottom contacts of the switch.

The information above is provided for educational purposes and you are
responsible for understanding the hazards of working with electrical
circuits and any damage to person or property that may result from
experimenting with this lamp circuit.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

"Sean" wrote in message
...
I'll try and locate a glow bottle. I live in a small town in Canada, and
there is not a lot of selection in some of the local stores. I'll try
Radio Shack and the local lumberyard, but I am not holding my breath. I'll
have to wait until I can get down to the "Big City" and see if I can
locate one there.
How would I wire the glow bottle into the circuit that I described? (With
the intention that the light is "always" in On mode. The timer will be
taking care of turning it on and off.)
Thanks, Sean
"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:gEHYd.474$mq2.225@trnddc08...

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean

Sean I think I've got some starters somewhere I'll see if I can find them.
But if it's standard four footer tube might be simpler but a bit more
expensive to use a non-starter type ballast? All the spare ballasts I got
are for the two 40/34 watt type tube fixtures.
Email if you wish.
Another Terry. Newfoundland Canada.

quoting:
I'll try and locate a glow bottle. I live in a small town in Canada, and
there is not a lot of selection in some of the local stores. I'll try Radio
Shack and the local lumberyard, but I am not holding my breath. I'll have to
wait until I can get down to the "Big City" and see if I can locate one
there.


The starter/glow bottle for 4 foot, 40W tubes are usually labled "FS-4" .

It's generally not a good idea to use 34W tubes with preheat/switch start
ballasts.

You have 4 wires in the "switch", correct? For the two wires that go to the
each of the tube ends, put the starter in between those. You can just wrap
the wires around the prongs of the starter, and insulate with black tape.
The other two wires should be the "hot" side for the ballast. Just connect
those together with a nut so that the light is "on" all the time, (but will
be switched externally with a timer.)




How would I wire the glow bottle into the circuit that I described? (With
the intention that the light is "always" in On mode. The timer will be
taking care of turning it on and off.)
Thanks, Sean
"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:gEHYd.474$mq2.225@trnddc08...

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.
Thanks, Sean


You can buy a glowbottle starter at any hardware store, usually under a
dollar.

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the answer. I was hoping to simply bypass the switch, but it
doesn't look like that is going to happen. I guess I'll have to replace
the
ballast after all.

Add a glow lamp starter to the circuit. That should work fine with the
existing ballast. Otherwise you'll need a complete new ballast, and a
complete new lamp is cheaper. In Canada you can get models with an
electronic ballast quite cheap. Home Depot or Rona will have these -
possibly on sale. They plug in, so you can plug it into a wall timer. Easy,
cheap!

N

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works
about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as
it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used
to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.) ...

I bet you press and hold the switch, then release it. During the press and
hold the lamp is shorted out to preheat the filaments. You need the special
switch. Ask at a hardware store, but make sure the guy knows what he is
talking about.

N

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works
about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as
it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used
to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of
the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch.
The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom
right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp.
The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do
in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp
to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low
glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.




While it's hard for me to visualize without a drawing, it sounds somewhat
like a switch start preheat ballast where you turn the switch on and hold it
for a moment to preheat the cathodes. If that's the case then to bypass it
you would need to install a starter in place of the starting contacts in the
power switch.

I appreciate your desire to get this to work & the fun/challenge
therein, but should it prove to be more f'ing around than it's worth,
keep in mind you can buy a brand new 4' single tube starterless light
for $10-15. They usually come "knocked down", so it would be a pretty
easy task to fit the new ballast etc to the existing fixture/fish tank,
should you not be able to use the entire new fixture itself.

Dan

Sean wrote:
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works about
30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and off for
her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as it
is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used to
seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of the
lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off switch. The
top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp. The bottom right
of the switch goes to the other connector on the right side of the lamp. The
bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do in
writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp to
one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other wire
from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very low glow
from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.

One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the store. (The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units. (So
about 22 - 30 units.)
I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about $30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one that
will hopefully last.)
So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)
2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.



"Sean" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am having some trouble rewiring a ballast. It's an older one that
my wife has above her fish tank. The On/Off switch is flaky (it works
about 30% of the time) so she wants to set it up on a timer to go on and
off for her fish.
I am trying to bypass the on/off switch, but I am having some trouble as
it is an older ballast.
Here's the scoop.
It is a 4 foot single lamp ballast.
There is the standard black and white wires, plus a blue wire. (I am used
to seeing 6 wires in a 2 lamp system.)
The black goes to the Power. The white goes to the right hand side of the
lamp. The blue goes to the left hand side. Coming from the left side of
the lamp is another black that connect to the top left of the on/off
switch. The top right of the switch goes to the right side of the lamp.
The bottom right of the switch goes to the other connector on the right
side of the lamp. The bottom left of the switch goes back to Power.
I am sorry if this is a little complicated, but that's the best I can do
in writing.
I figured that I should connect the black from the left side of the lamp
to one of the wires on the right side of the lamp, and connect the other
wire from the right side back to power. That doesn't work. (I get a very
low glow from half the bulb, but it doesn't go on.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here are the specs on the ballast in case they are needed:
120V 60hz .55 amp
Keystone Transformer Co.
Cat no. M4OP
40 W Ballast.

Thanks a lot!
Sean.

quoting:
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the store. (The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units. (So
about 22 - 30 units.)


I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about $30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one that
will hopefully last.)

$1.40 - is this for 34w, 40W, or T8 tubes? The local GESupply sells 34w CW
tubes for about $1.30 currently, and about $2.50 for T8. 40W tubes are
currently about $2.25 .

8' for $6 to $7 - Is this for 60W or 75W tubes?



So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)


Things to consider:

It all depends on 60W vs 75W tubes in the 8' lights now, vs T8 or 34W or 40W
in the new lights.

Generally, old and most new magnetic 8' ballasts light 75w tubes to nearly
full rated output. Same with old and most new magnetic ballasts for 4' 40w
tubes.

34w tubes start out about 15 percent lower at full rated output, but they
always never light more than 94 percent of their rated output on any ballast,
even if that ballast was previously lighting a 40W tube at nearly full
output. The same goes for 8' 60W vs 75W tubes on same ballast.

Typical T8 ballasts light T8 lamps to 88-92 percent of their rated output.
You generally have to seek out ballasts that light T8 lamps to something near
or over 100 percent of their rated output.


2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.


Generally, yes if you go with T8. (even better if you get ballasts that light
the tubes to nearly or above their rated output.) If you ever consider
saving energy with those 34W or 60W tubes - skip them. Go straight to T8.
If you do decide to stay T12, just stay with 40W or 75W tubes. Don't use
those 34w or 60W tubes, they are rather poor.


BTW, did you read my post about fixing your fish tank light?

quoting:
I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while
the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about $30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one that
will hopefully last.)

$1.40 - is this for 34w, 40W, or T8 tubes? The local GESupply sells 34w CW
tubes for about $1.30 currently, and about $2.50 for T8. 40W tubes are
currently about $2.25 .

8' for $6 to $7 - Is this for 60W or 75W tubes?



Replying to my own post here...

I just checked the price of the 8' tubes:

60w $2.71
75w $4.71


So figure that you'll need two 4' tubes to make an 8' section, if this were
around here, it would not be a large enough savings to make the switch. But,
just for the energy savings alone, it would still be worthwile to go to T8.

But, if you don't care about the energy savings, then I would just keep the
8' tubes, replace the dead ballasts, and relamp the dead tubes with 75w
ones for the the highest possible light output.






Rest of my OP still applies:


So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know
how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)


Things to consider:

It all depends on 60W vs 75W tubes in the 8' lights now, vs T8 or 34W or 40W
in the new lights.

Generally, old and most new magnetic 8' ballasts light 75w tubes to nearly
full rated output. Same with old and most new magnetic ballasts for 4' 40w
tubes.

34w tubes start out about 15 percent lower at full rated output, but they
always never light more than 94 percent of their rated output on any
ballast,
even if that ballast was previously lighting a 40W tube at nearly full
output. The same goes for 8' 60W vs 75W tubes on same ballast.

Typical T8 ballasts light T8 lamps to 88-92 percent of their rated output.
You generally have to seek out ballasts that light T8 lamps to something
near
or over 100 percent of their rated output.


2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.


Generally, yes if you go with T8. (even better if you get ballasts that
light
the tubes to nearly or above their rated output.) If you ever consider
saving energy with those 34W or 60W tubes - skip them. Go straight to T8.
If you do decide to stay T12, just stay with 40W or 75W tubes. Don't use
those 34w or 60W tubes, they are rather poor.


BTW, did you read my post about fixing your fish tank light?

Thanks for the info. And yes I did see your post about the aquarium light.
When I head to the "big city" I am going to try and find a starter, or a
ballast that will fit. (Whichever I can find quickest, I usually don't have
a lot of time in town.)
Thanks again,
Sean
"JM" wrote in message
news:wNcZd.2601$I16.518@trndny03...
quoting:
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the store.
(The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units. (So
about 22 - 30 units.)


I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while
the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about
$30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one that
will hopefully last.)

$1.40 - is this for 34w, 40W, or T8 tubes? The local GESupply sells 34w
CW
tubes for about $1.30 currently, and about $2.50 for T8. 40W tubes are
currently about $2.25 .

8' for $6 to $7 - Is this for 60W or 75W tubes?



So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know
how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)


Things to consider:

It all depends on 60W vs 75W tubes in the 8' lights now, vs T8 or 34W or
40W
in the new lights.

Generally, old and most new magnetic 8' ballasts light 75w tubes to nearly
full rated output. Same with old and most new magnetic ballasts for 4'
40w
tubes.

34w tubes start out about 15 percent lower at full rated output, but they
always never light more than 94 percent of their rated output on any
ballast,
even if that ballast was previously lighting a 40W tube at nearly full
output. The same goes for 8' 60W vs 75W tubes on same ballast.

Typical T8 ballasts light T8 lamps to 88-92 percent of their rated output.
You generally have to seek out ballasts that light T8 lamps to something
near
or over 100 percent of their rated output.


2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.


Generally, yes if you go with T8. (even better if you get ballasts that
light
the tubes to nearly or above their rated output.) If you ever consider
saving energy with those 34W or 60W tubes - skip them. Go straight to T8.
If you do decide to stay T12, just stay with 40W or 75W tubes. Don't use
those 34w or 60W tubes, they are rather poor.


BTW, did you read my post about fixing your fish tank light?

"Sean" wrote in message
...
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the store.
(The store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units. (So
about 22 - 30 units.)
I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while
the 8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about
$30, whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a
cheaper one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for
one that will hopefully last.)
So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know
how noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units
and achieve near the same amount of light?)
2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.


SNIP


Sean.

It sounds like there are some other questions that ought to be asked. Don't
you want to know:

1. What kind of lighting should I have to sell the most books?
2. How can I get that lighting for the least cost over the next 10-15
years?

Given that you're thinking about cost effectiveness over the next 10-15
years, it isn't the tube cost or even the fixture cost that is going to
impact you over time; it's the cost of energy (even if you have a 5 cent
hydro rate). For every dollar you spend for lighting over those years, 90
cents or more will be for electricity and that includes the cost of lamps,
fixtures and even the cost of money should you have to borrow to install the
lighting.

At least go to a local electrical distributor and talk to the lighting
specialist (call around until you find a distributor that has one). As a
business, you should get at least a contractor price on lamps and fixtures.
Or consider hiring a lighting designer to do the job. It's a rare designer
who can't save your his/her fee on a job like this just by recommending the
most cost effective solution.

Terry McGowan

Sean wrote:
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently
have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the
store. (The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units.
(So
about 22 - 30 units.)

Here, Britain, 8' tubes are mostly 125w, with some being 100w.
Presumably youve got 60w 8'. Basically the longer the tube, the better
the efficiency.


I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes
and
ballasts.

.... you have all the 8' ballasts already, no extra spend needed. Re
tubes, they last long enough for there to be no hurry, if you have
anough that work now.


(In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs
about $30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a
cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one
that
will hopefully last.)
So there are actually two questions:

1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those
units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to
know how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8'
units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)

2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all
these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 -
$7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that
are
burnt out?)

Thats the impression I get, but do the numbers. What does it cost you
to fix he few 8'ers and provide tubes, what does it cost for 4'...

I'd look at just replacing a small number with 4', just as needed, but
do it in one area to ensuer it looks decent, using the good 8' lamps in
that area to repair or replace the dead ones elsewhere.


NT

On 14 Mar 2005 07:03:32 -0800, wrote:

Sean wrote:
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently
have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the
store. (The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units.
(So
about 22 - 30 units.)

Here, Britain, 8' tubes are mostly 125w, with some being 100w.
Presumably youve got 60w 8'. Basically the longer the tube, the better
the efficiency.

Yes, longer is more efficient, but only if all else is equal. Modern
4-foot T8 lamps are more efficient than just about any 8-foot T12
lamp. The only 8-foot T12 lamps that may come close require rare earth
phosphor coating which makes the lamp very expensive (due to its large
size and low sales volume) and only about 0.5 lm/W more efficient than
the comparable 4-foot T8 lamp (per data in the Philips catalog.) Plus,
this data is taken at 50/60Hz, so the OP will get a boost of 10% ( 9
lm/W) in the lamp efficacy alone by switching to T8 and electronic
ballast plus an additional boost of at least 10% from the more
efficient electronic ballast.

As Terry has pointed out, the cost of electricity to operate the lamps
over the life of the new fixtures is far higher than the cost of the
lamps and ballasts and fixtures.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

Thats the impression I get, but do the numbers. What does it cost you
to fix he few 8'ers and provide tubes, what does it cost for 4'...

I'd look at just replacing a small number with 4', just as needed, but
do it in one area to ensuer it looks decent, using the good 8' lamps in
that area to repair or replace the dead ones elsewhere.



Spot relamping is not a good idea in a retail business (or most places
really), discharge lamps suffer lumen depreciation as they age and should be
replaced on a time schedule. Otherwise they get dimmer and dimmer while
still consuming full power and if you spot relamp them you get bright spots
and dim spots and overall it just looks shabby. A better approach which is
more cost effective in the longrun is to run the lamps a specified number of
hours and then replace them all at once, though it's hard to get people over
the "incandescent mentality" of running any lamp completely into the ground.
As others have said, the cost of the electricity over the life dwarfs the
cost of the lamps and lost sales due to the store looking like a cave will
cost more than a set of new lamps. Look around and once you start noticing
this it'll drive you nuts, gets even more fun in places using metal halide
lighting as not only do the depreciate more substantially but they tend to
suffer color shift as they age. I've been in places with old mercury lights
that were so dimmed from age that I practically needed a flashlight to find
my way around.

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:jRsZd.5523$mq2.522@trnddc08...
Spot relamping is not a good idea in a retail business (or most places
really), discharge lamps suffer lumen depreciation as they age and should
be
replaced on a time schedule. Otherwise they get dimmer and dimmer while
still consuming full power and if you spot relamp them you get bright
spots
and dim spots and overall it just looks shabby. A better approach which is
more cost effective in the longrun is to run the lamps a specified number
of
hours and then replace them all at once ...

Yep. In the factory I used to do them all at once. I also washed all
reflectors with soap and water. Saves dragging the scaffold out over and
over again.

N

Actually that's a pretty good idea to replace the dead ones in one area with
good 4' lamps, and rearrange the rest of the 8' to make that area look
decent.
Thanks!
wrote in message
oups.com...
Sean wrote:
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently
have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the
store. (The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units.
(So
about 22 - 30 units.)

Here, Britain, 8' tubes are mostly 125w, with some being 100w.
Presumably youve got 60w 8'. Basically the longer the tube, the better
the efficiency.


I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes
and
ballasts.

... you have all the 8' ballasts already, no extra spend needed. Re
tubes, they last long enough for there to be no hurry, if you have
anough that work now.


(In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs
about $30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a
cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one
that
will hopefully last.)
So there are actually two questions:

1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those
units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to
know how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8'
units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)

2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all
these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 -
$7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that
are
burnt out?)

Thats the impression I get, but do the numbers. What does it cost you
to fix he few 8'ers and provide tubes, what does it cost for 4'...

I'd look at just replacing a small number with 4', just as needed, but
do it in one area to ensuer it looks decent, using the good 8' lamps in
that area to repair or replace the dead ones elsewhere.


NT

"Sean" wrote in message
...
One other question while on the topic of replacing ballasts and
fluorescent
lights....
I am remodelling an empty unit to make a bookstore and they currently have
about fifteen to twenty 8 foot double tube lights throughout the store.
(The
store is about 2500 square feet.)
I am considering replacing them all with about 50% more 4 foot units. (So
about 22 - 30 units.)
I am considering doing this mostly due to the high price of 8' tubes and
ballasts. (In this part of Canada the 4' tubes go for about $1.40, while
the
8' go for about $6-$7). Also the ballasts for the 8' bulbs costs about
$30,
whereas I can get a whole 4' unit for about that price. ($20 for a cheaper
one that will probably break down in a few years, $30 - $35 for one that
will hopefully last.)
So there are actually two questions:
1) Will I retain a similar amount of light from replacing those units? (I
know that their will be a small drop in light, but I just wanted to know
how
noticeable it would be? Or should I just double the number of 8' units and
achieve near the same amount of light?)
2) Is it going to be cost effective over 10 -15 years to replace all these
units? (Or am I wasting a lot of money trying to avoid spending $6 - $7 on
the 8' tubes and $30 on a few new ballasts to replace the 3 or 4 that are
burnt out?)
Thanks for reading this long post, and for any answers or suggestions.
Sean.



If you're gonna bother to go through the effort and expense to replace all
those lamps, I strongly suggest you look into F32T8 trichromatic phosphor
lamps using electronic ballasts. The initial cost is higher, but they've
made the old T12 stuff obsolete. A 32W T8 trichromatic tube such as the
F32T8/830 or 850 is brighter than a 34W T12, and with the electronic ballast
you get no perceptible flicker. For a store, the greatly improved color
rendering of the trichromatic stuff (CRI 80 for the 800 series stuff) has a
lot of benefits, the reduced energy consumption and increased sales will pay
for the conversion. Additionally you have a wide choice of color
temperatures from 2700K (warm incandescent color) to 6500K (icy daylight)
with 3000K and 4100K being popular middle ground. Personally I like 5000K as
it's a nice pure clean white without being icey but it's a matter of
personal preference.