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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
Horatio Alger/Norman Spruance/John Harmon/Frank Bacon is BAAAAAAAAACK.
Please do not dignify his drivel with a response. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) -- Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America again. - @KelsowFarlander |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:38:26 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:
Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) There is mounting - and there is "mounting". Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
Imagine this scenario:
Frank/Horatio/Norman/John, our idiot in search of his very own village, using his BMW with his front-end work, now driving on four bald tires that he has repaired and installed with his Harbor Freight tools out on the road right beside the rest of us. Don't engage with this jackass. With apologies to the hooved variety for the base libel. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:
I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and how bad the damage is... Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch. None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in tread area. Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test. We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last groove, and eventually punctured the tire. http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole: http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool: http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight): http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug: http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series ti http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter: http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery: http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside: http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall: http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the vulcanizing glue: http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug: http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch: http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg Where this is what the final patch looked like: http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 1:37 PM, Frank wrote:
On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote: On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) That's a good question which I don't know how to answer. Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home. We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have). Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires (but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end): http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was before (at least as a starting point): http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation: http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy: http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy: http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made by a bolt that was NOT sharp! http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the ti Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is not going to be helpful). |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why. I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Is that correct? BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug? http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy): http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg And a bigger patch which was flatter: http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush? http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this: http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:
I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations. I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:
Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these "radial" body plies. http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspens...irecutaway.gif If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body plies". Is that right? https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/im...truction-1.png |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised: I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations. I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? That was my point. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised: I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations. I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. You're correct, my apologies. As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why. Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. Is that correct? BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug? http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy): http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg And a bigger patch which was flatter: http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush? http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this: http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is important to ensure that proper prep is performed. In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie wrote:
On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:
On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote: On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause problems with tread squirm and tire integrety. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie wrote:
On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote: On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why. Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge" on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt area. A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go - even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. snipped In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better. According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as soon as possible. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
Frank Baron:
I don't trust those straight plugs. Only the 'mushroom' plugs(flat on inside) for me. Had too many 'cigarette butt' plugs come out on me. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thanks for the detail, as all the holes I patched were screws or bolts, so, they're pretty small, and, as others said, all were within the "tread" area. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. That's interesting as I can infer from that the lower-profile tires have a slightly greater area of patchability, all other things being equal. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. That's interesting that the patch can go to very edge of the tread. I had previously thought it could only go in the "middle" of the tread. A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is important to ensure that proper prep is performed. I knew about patchplugs, but I didn't have any so I made my own patchplug with a plug first, cut flush, and then a patch. Seems to me, in the end, the kind of patch and then plug that I did should work though, as they're essentially the same thing in the end, right? In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. Thanks. I actually knew that (but you didn't know I knew that). I was removing the tire anyway, so as to get experience with breaking the bead and reseating the bead. So I plugged it first from the outside, and then patched it from the inside. Seems to me that should be good enough for government work, but I don't know (which is why I ask). There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better. I agree a single-piece patch-plug is better than either a patch or a plug alone. I suspect a two-piece patch-and-then-plug is still better than either a patch or a plug alone. Does that also make sense to you? http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. That does seem like a far more elegant solution than the path-and-then-plug that I came up with on my own. http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. Thank you for that advice. I figured it had to be flush, but your argument that it doesn't need to be flush as it may seal better not being flush and that it will wear with the tire makes sense. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie advised:
Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. I realize you're talking to Clare, but I want to say I agree with you that warnings such as "don't run with scissors" are great, but they're essentially useless because nobody ever gets hurt while running with scissors (so to speak). Specifically, Clare told me that my patch is a "disaster waiting to happen", which, other than the treadwear, I don't see where he gets that from. Sure, I didn't use a single-piece patchplug, but, my question is whether anyone sees a *safety* issue with the way I did these tires? a. Is the patch too large or too small? b. Is the goopy plug a safety issue? c. Is the location on the tire a safety issue. Other than treadwear, I don't (yet) see any safety issues with my repairs. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk. Again, I agree with you. It's like that warning on plastic bags not to suffocate people with them. They're not useful for someone who is thinking about what they're doing. Which is what I'm trying to do here. I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the 100% success rate thus far. In an emergency, you'll be glad you have those skills! I'm trying to obtain those skills now, before the emergency too. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/16 2:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised: Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) That's a good question which I don't know how to answer. Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home. We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have). SNIP Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is not going to be helpful). Guess everyone needs a hobby ;-) -- You can’t get rich in politics unless you’re a crook. - President Harry Truman |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie wrote:
On 12/21/2016 5:18 PM, wrote: On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie wrote: On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote: On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why. Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge" on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt area. A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go - even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. I agree about the damage a tire can do Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk. I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the 100% success rate thus far. a repaired Michelin X came apart on a friend's Rover 2000 sedan in Zambia and it took the rear febser and wheelwell apart. The rear tire in my brothers Dodge Aspenn (a Zeta 40M from UniRoyal - back in 1972) lost it's belt at 70mph on the Burlington Ontario Skyway bridge and did a lot of damage and almost killed him. I've seen tires with the steel belt badly rusted and kicked over an inch to the side without coming apart - but the tire wagged the car like a dog's tail.. When you do something dangerous it usually DOES work just fine - until it doesn't. That said, the warnings ARE there to protect the manufacturer - and are followed by concientious businesses to keep their liability insurance rates low enough to be able to stay in business. Repairing your own tires is your own risk, primarily. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:10:12 -0000, Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English. -- The most effective way to remember your wife's birthday is to forget it once. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 12:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised: Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) That's a good question which I don't know how to answer. Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home. We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know? |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 06:57 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/56064690.cms How does it feel to be trailing India? Stick a fork in the UK and its quirky spellings; it's done. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? None of those are sidewall related. I will plug/patch a tire with usable tread right to the edge of the tread mold. You are still in multiple ply area there. I won't patch a sidewall on a passenger vehicle but on something like a tractor, loader or skidder I don't have a problem using a chunk of live rubber and vulcanizing it in, I've even stitched some together and patched them. Toss a tube in to hold the air if needed. -- Steve W. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
Frank Baron wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:52:29 -0500, advised: And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause problems with tread squirm and tire integrety. Hi Clare, I patched five tires with the goopy string plugs, and then cut them flush on both sides, and then put a patch on top of the plugs. I know they sell a one-piece patch-plug, but that seemed like overkill for my tests so I just wonder what you recommend for two-piece plugs if a one-piece patch-plug isn't around. Would you do it the way I did it, or differently? For practice on techniques the cheap string plugs are good. They will even work on a good repair as long as you prep the hole correctly. I have a variety of different repair materials depending on the tire and it's intended use. A mushroom plug gun that works great as a quick plug, and they get used a lot on lawn, ATV and golf cart tires. http://www.stopngo.com/ Good string plugs - http://safetyseal.com/index.php combo patch/plugs and boots, plus various other supplies. http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/ -- Steve W. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 00:55:50 -0500, Steve W. advised:
None of those are sidewall related. I will plug/patch a tire with usable tread right to the edge of the tread mold. You are still in multiple ply area there. Thanks Steve. I didn't know it at first but now I know that you want the patch/plug to be in the area within the steel circumferential belts. Apparently the edge of the belts is a DMZ of sorts though ... |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 20:36:19 -0500, advised:
Repairing your own tires is your own risk, primarily. And don't run with scissors in your hand! |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 01:11:13 -0500, Steve W. advised:
For practice on techniques the cheap string plugs are good. They will even work on a good repair as long as you prep the hole correctly. That's good advice. As for "prepping" the hole, all I know is you're supposed to "ream" it with the auger provided in the kit. That auger worked for larger (bolt) holes but small nail holes were too small. I needed *power*. I'm wondering if I can slice off the auger and put it in a drill. Anyone done that? I have a variety of different repair materials depending on the tire and it's intended use. My home patch kit contains: a. T-handled auger & insertion tools b. Grease pen (white) c. Pliers (needlenose) d. Patches e. Vulcanizing cement f. scraper (wire brush works faster) What else is needed? (ah, I see the answer below) A mushroom plug gun that works great as a quick plug, and they get used a lot on lawn, ATV and golf cart tires. http://www.stopngo.com/ Ah, that would be a nice tool to have! It's fast - but for home use, we don't really need fast. I wonder if it fits the RMA (rubber manufacturers association) guidelines which seem to require a patch and a plug whereas this is mostly just a plug. Good string plugs - http://safetyseal.com/index.php Interesting that their string plugs are nylon yarn, with 250% rubber! combo patch/plugs and boots, plus various other supplies. http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/ That's a very nice site for tools and supplies! I love the fact the standard (we can assume that's P type?) wheel weights are inexpensive, at about $7 for a box of 25 which is about 30 cents each. http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/c...eights-1-1-1-1 A box of 50 1-1/2 inch 0.453-inch diameter rubber valve stems is $16 which is about 30 to 35 cents each. http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/vs-414 It's interesting they have "euro style" and "usa style" radial tubeless tire patches (what's the difference? Is it just metric sizes?) at http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/patches-boots I *love* that site as it seems to have all that we need (I am looking for a better wire buffing brush, for example). |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 20:28:28 -0700, rbowman advised:
Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know? If this group were named ladies.cookies_and_crochet, then the question wouldn't be apropos of how to decide when a tire is repairable. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
If I were the only driver on the planet, and never drove closer than 500 meters from another living creature, this discussion might be relevant at the level of detail incurred so far.
But, I drive on crowded roads with other drivers who have lives of their own. And the occasional school bus with a few dozen children on board. And the occasional fluids-tanker or propane tanker with flammable and explosive materials on board. So, here we are on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Speed Limit: 70). And my left-front tire shatters on a curve. I start spinning into the other lane and waffle a school bus into a gasoline tanker. *POOF*. Turns out that the tire-removal, patching, balancing and re-installation were all mine, using Harbor Freight tools based on advice received in this venue. What is my ethical position? Pretty wretched in any case, and probably criminal. It is very clear, at least to me, that this idiot in search of a village has the ethics of a politician, the morals of an evangelical preacher and the wisdom of a common housefly. And all this blather is about avoiding 'bad news' and having to take responsibility for his actions. Why would I go to a mechanic to align my vehicle, patch a tire or do any number of other fairly simple tasks? Because that mechanic is trained to see things that I do not. That mechanic (and ours are very, very good) will tell me what I need to know whether I like it or not. And my mechanic DOES use the right tool for the job, does not accept "good enough" and more. Do not engage with this creature. It will ask and ask and ask the same question in many different ways and in many different venues until it gets the answer it wants. And then it will take action based on that answer and take those results out on the road with other innocents, hang the consequences. I hope, when Horatio/Norman/John/frank is finally awarded his richly deserved, far-to-long delayed Darwin Award, it is a solo action and does not involve group participation. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
It happens that Wade Garrett formulated :
On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall. http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) Someone told him he would be re-tiring soon, so he wants to learn how from the experts here. Someone should explain to him what was really meant. |
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 9:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 12/21/2016 06:57 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote: They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/56064690.cms How does it feel to be trailing India? Stick a fork in the UK and its quirky spellings; it's done. Oh, 63 million Brits equal the output of a billion-plus Indians? Wake me if anything exciting turns up. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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