could have saved my life.

I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until
I decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my
finger, I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I
probably would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how
long.
The drill motor is a 3 wire system, hot, neutral and ground. I had it
plugged into a GFCI. I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button.
The GFCI didn't pop. I retrieved my DVM and tested from the drill case
the the dirt outside the door, it was about 80v. I then tested from the
Hot to the ground at the receptacle, that was about 20 v. I moved to
another Receptacle closer to the house, same thing no ground connection.
I moved up to a receptacle on the outside of the house on the same line,
again no ground connection. Inside the garage, no ground connection. I
opened the circuit breaker box and checked the ground wire, it is good.
So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.
Followup tomorrow evening.
Mikek

In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
could have saved my life.

Good catch.

I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button. The GFCI didn't
pop.

The "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here.

Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the circuit breaker
box and checked the ground wire, it is good. So, in my attic between
the CB box and the garage there must be a connection box where the
ground has opened up.

Don't discount the idea that the ground is open at one of the
receptacles. In three houses I've worked on (one from 1965, two from
1969), if two or more NM cables come into a receptacle box, the ground
wires are just twisted around each other for an inch or two, with no
wire nut. Usually the contact between wires is OK but sometimes the
twist is not very strong. One of the ground wires is longer than the
others, and it goes to the green screw on the receptacle. When I swap
a receptacle in a box like this, I usually add a green wire nut with a
hole in the top for the long ground wire (Ideal "Greenie" or equal), to
help make sure the ground stays connected.

Besides, checking the receptacles is probably easier than fooling around
in the attic.

A good tool for quickly checking grounds is a 100 W incandescent lamp
in a socket that has insulated wire leads. Connect the wires live to
neutral to calibrate your eyes, then go from live to ground. If the
brightness drops off a lot, the ground has high resistance. (If there
is a GFCI in the circuit, going from live to ground should also pop the
GFCI.)

Matt Roberds

"amdx"
could have saved my life.

I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until I
decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my finger,
I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I probably
would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how long.
The drill motor is a 3 wire system, hot, neutral and ground. I had it
plugged into a GFCI. I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button.
The GFCI didn't pop. I retrieved my DVM and tested from the drill case the
the dirt outside the door, it was about 80v. I then tested from the Hot to
the ground at the receptacle, that was about 20 v. I moved to another
Receptacle closer to the house, same thing no ground connection. I moved
up to a receptacle on the outside of the house on the same line, again no
ground connection. Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the
circuit breaker box and checked the ground wire, it is good.
So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.
Followup tomorrow evening.

** FYI:

GFCIs work independently of the safety ground in a 3 wire system - so will
still trip if a few mA of current is passing to any local ground like soil,
wet concrete or metal plumbing.

However, a missing safety earth conductor is never good as the metal cases
of 3 wire appliances can become live and nothing blows.

BTW:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.


.... Phil

On Fri, 02 May 2014 20:30:04 -0500, amdx wrote:

So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.

http://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Receptacle-Outlet-Ground-Tester/dp/B0012DHVQ0
Buy one (or two) and walk it around to every outlet in the house. Also
check power strips which I've seen miswired.

Followup tomorrow evening.

The life you save may be your own.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/05/2014 12:01 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"amdx"
could have saved my life.

I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until I
decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my finger,
I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I probably
would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how long.
The drill motor is a 3 wire system, hot, neutral and ground. I had it
plugged into a GFCI. I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button.
The GFCI didn't pop. I retrieved my DVM and tested from the drill case the
the dirt outside the door, it was about 80v. I then tested from the Hot to
the ground at the receptacle, that was about 20 v. I moved to another
Receptacle closer to the house, same thing no ground connection. I moved
up to a receptacle on the outside of the house on the same line, again no
ground connection. Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the
circuit breaker box and checked the ground wire, it is good.
So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.
Followup tomorrow evening.

** FYI:

GFCIs work independently of the safety ground in a 3 wire system - so will
still trip if a few mA of current is passing to any local ground like soil,
wet concrete or metal plumbing.

However, a missing safety earth conductor is never good as the metal cases
of 3 wire appliances can become live and nothing blows.

BTW:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.

**You got that right. My old man gave me my first electric drill (an
Hitachi, which I still use) back in 1967. It was a double insulated
type. He gave me my second electric drill (a variable speed Bosch in
1974 - which simply refuses to stop working). Also double insulated. He
kept using his aluminium cased Black & Decker for some reason. I have
not seen an earthed portable electric drill since at least that time,
though the old man's B&D is still in the family garage. It hasn't been
used in more than 20 years. Nor should it be. Terrifying things. Moreso
for those of us in 220-240VAC countries.


--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

On Sat, 3 May 2014, Trevor Wilson wrote:

On 3/05/2014 12:01 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"amdx"
could have saved my life.

I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until I
decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my finger,
I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I probably
would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how long.
The drill motor is a 3 wire system, hot, neutral and ground. I had it
plugged into a GFCI. I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button.
The GFCI didn't pop. I retrieved my DVM and tested from the drill case the
the dirt outside the door, it was about 80v. I then tested from the Hot to
the ground at the receptacle, that was about 20 v. I moved to another
Receptacle closer to the house, same thing no ground connection. I moved
up to a receptacle on the outside of the house on the same line, again no
ground connection. Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the
circuit breaker box and checked the ground wire, it is good.
So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.
Followup tomorrow evening.

** FYI:

GFCIs work independently of the safety ground in a 3 wire system - so will
still trip if a few mA of current is passing to any local ground like soil,
wet concrete or metal plumbing.

However, a missing safety earth conductor is never good as the metal cases
of 3 wire appliances can become live and nothing blows.

BTW:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.

**You got that right. My old man gave me my first electric drill (an Hitachi,
which I still use) back in 1967. It was a double insulated type. He gave me
my second electric drill (a variable speed Bosch in 1974 - which simply
refuses to stop working). Also double insulated. He kept using his aluminium
cased Black & Decker for some reason. I have not seen an earthed portable
electric drill since at least that time, though the old man's B&D is still in
the family garage. It hasn't been used in more than 20 years. Nor should it
be. Terrifying things. Moreso for those of us in 220-240VAC countries.

That's odd. My Black & Decker from 1975 (variable speed, but only one
direction) has a three prong plug, still works fine, though about 25 years
ago I had to put in replacement brushes.

In about the past five years, I bought another B&D drill at a garage sale
for a few dollars, that one maybe has two prongs, but the B&D drill that I
found in the garbage when the students moved out (which does reverse) is
three pronged.

Even that fancy detail sander I found last year, only to realize when I
got it home that it was a 220V unit, that has three prongs, of the
non-North American kind.

Of course, now one has the option of getting a cordless drill, which is
certainly a whole lot safer, and beats getting out an extension cord or
two to bring power to that distant location that requires a drill. I
don't use mine that much, but the first time I had to drill a hole and
didn't have to lay out the extension cord paid for that cheap cordless
drill.

Michael

"Michael Black"

Phil Allison wrote:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.


That's odd. My Black & Decker from 1975 (variable speed, but only one
direction) has a three prong plug, still works fine, though about 25 years
ago I had to put in replacement brushes.


** A double insulated or "class 2" appliance may have a 3
pronged plug.

Egs, my Black & Decker 1600W heat gun and Atlas Copco
drill have 3 pin plugs but are clearly labelled "class 2" .

The AC cords have only two conductors.



In about the past five years, I bought another B&D drill at a garage sale
for a few dollars, that one maybe has two prongs, but the B&D drill that I
found in the garbage when the students moved out (which does reverse) is
three pronged.

** See above - look for the double square symbol.


Of course, now one has the option of getting a cordless drill, which is
certainly a whole lot safer,

** Well yes and no...

If you need to drill into walls it is possible to penetrate an AC
power cable and have the drill become electrified. Typically
the drill bit, chuck and metal cased gear box will be live -
the Atlas Copco drill has a plastic coating all over the chuck
and the drill body for this reason as do most modern units.



..... Phil

Phil Allison wrote on 3/05/2014 :
"Michael Black"

Phil Allison wrote:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.


That's odd. My Black & Decker from 1975 (variable speed, but only one
direction) has a three prong plug, still works fine, though about 25 years
ago I had to put in replacement brushes.


** A double insulated or "class 2" appliance may have a 3
pronged plug.

Egs, my Black & Decker 1600W heat gun and Atlas Copco
drill have 3 pin plugs but are clearly labelled "class 2" .

The AC cords have only two conductors.

For a time in Aus there were sockets with shutters opened by the ground
pin.
I think they are still standard in the UK.


In about the past five years, I bought another B&D drill at a garage sale
for a few dollars, that one maybe has two prongs, but the B&D drill that I
found in the garbage when the students moved out (which does reverse) is
three pronged.

** See above - look for the double square symbol.


Of course, now one has the option of getting a cordless drill, which is
certainly a whole lot safer,

** Well yes and no...

If you need to drill into walls it is possible to penetrate an AC
power cable and have the drill become electrified. Typically
the drill bit, chuck and metal cased gear box will be live -
the Atlas Copco drill has a plastic coating all over the chuck
and the drill body for this reason as do most modern units.



.... Phil

--
John G

On 3/05/2014 3:33 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Michael Black"

Phil Allison wrote:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.


That's odd. My Black & Decker from 1975 (variable speed, but only one
direction) has a three prong plug, still works fine, though about 25 years
ago I had to put in replacement brushes.


** A double insulated or "class 2" appliance may have a 3
pronged plug.

**Correct. Both my Hitachi and the Bosch use 3 pin plugs. The earth wire
is not used.


Egs, my Black & Decker 1600W heat gun and Atlas Copco
drill have 3 pin plugs but are clearly labelled "class 2" .

The AC cords have only two conductors.



In about the past five years, I bought another B&D drill at a garage sale
for a few dollars, that one maybe has two prongs, but the B&D drill that I
found in the garbage when the students moved out (which does reverse) is
three pronged.

** See above - look for the double square symbol.


Of course, now one has the option of getting a cordless drill, which is
certainly a whole lot safer,

** Well yes and no...

If you need to drill into walls it is possible to penetrate an AC
power cable and have the drill become electrified. Typically
the drill bit, chuck and metal cased gear box will be live -
the Atlas Copco drill has a plastic coating all over the chuck
and the drill body for this reason as do most modern units.

**I got a story about that too. A few years back I decided to replace
the incandescent fitting in part of my workshop with a double 37 Watt
fluoro fitting. As luck would have it, the wiring was installed in the
ceiling at the same time the slab was poured. I drilled a mounting hole
into the concrete ceiling............ You guessed it. Straight into the
conduit and into the wiring. Had to use surface mount conduit and
re-wire the whole bloody lot. GRRRR.

Yeah, I know. Shoulda used one of those wiring detector thingys.


--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

En el artículo , John G
escribió:

For a time in Aus there were sockets with shutters opened by the ground
pin.
I think they are still standard in the UK.

They are. It's a legal requirement.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 5/2/2014 8:58 PM, wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
could have saved my life.

Good catch.

I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button. The GFCI didn't
pop.

The "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here.

Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the circuit breaker
box and checked the ground wire, it is good. So, in my attic between
the CB box and the garage there must be a connection box where the
ground has opened up.

Don't discount the idea that the ground is open at one of the
receptacles. In three houses I've worked on (one from 1965, two from
1969), if two or more NM cables come into a receptacle box, the ground
wires are just twisted around each other for an inch or two, with no
wire nut. Usually the contact between wires is OK but sometimes the
twist is not very strong. One of the ground wires is longer than the
others, and it goes to the green screw on the receptacle. When I swap
a receptacle in a box like this, I usually add a green wire nut with a
hole in the top for the long ground wire (Ideal "Greenie" or equal), to
help make sure the ground stays connected.

Besides, checking the receptacles is probably easier than fooling around
in the attic.

A good tool for quickly checking grounds is a 100 W incandescent lamp
in a socket that has insulated wire leads. Connect the wires live to
neutral to calibrate your eyes, then go from live to ground. If the
brightness drops off a lot, the ground has high resistance. (If there
is a GFCI in the circuit, going from live to ground should also pop the
GFCI.)

Matt Roberds

checking in receptacle boxes, I thing I have it somewhat isolated.
The CB box and the garage are on opposite ends of the house, and as far
as I know, the garage is on a breaker by it's self. But it also looks
like there is a connection box between the CB box and the garage, or at
least a break in the ground wire. It seems a little odd, I'll figure it
out this afternoon.
Mikek

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 5/2/2014 9:01 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"amdx"
could have saved my life.

I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until I
decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my finger,
I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I probably
would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how long.
The drill motor is a 3 wire system, hot, neutral and ground. I had it
plugged into a GFCI. I unplugged the drill and pushed the test button.
The GFCI didn't pop. I retrieved my DVM and tested from the drill case the
the dirt outside the door, it was about 80v. I then tested from the Hot to
the ground at the receptacle, that was about 20 v. I moved to another
Receptacle closer to the house, same thing no ground connection. I moved
up to a receptacle on the outside of the house on the same line, again no
ground connection. Inside the garage, no ground connection. I opened the
circuit breaker box and checked the ground wire, it is good.
So, in my attic between the CB box and the garage there must be a
connection box where the ground has opened up.
Followup tomorrow evening.

** FYI
GFCIs work independently of the safety ground in a 3 wire system - so will
still trip if a few mA of current is passing to any local ground like soil,
wet concrete or metal plumbing.

Yes, good reminder, I knew it was a difference between the hot and
neutral, but when I was missing ground my mind went elsewhere.


However, a missing safety earth conductor is never good as the metal cases
of 3 wire appliances can become live and nothing blows.

BTW:

I have not seen a 3 wire, hand held drill in quite a while.


... Phil

It is old, scares me now!
Mikek



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 5/3/2014 3:26 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 3/05/2014 3:33 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Michael Black"

**I got a story about that too. A few years back I decided to replace
the incandescent fitting in part of my workshop with a double 37 Watt
fluoro fitting. As luck would have it, the wiring was installed in the
ceiling at the same time the slab was poured. I drilled a mounting hole
into the concrete ceiling............ You guessed it. Straight into the
conduit and into the wiring. Had to use surface mount conduit and
re-wire the whole bloody lot. GRRRR.

Yeah, I know. Shoulda used one of those wiring detector thingys.


I have told this before, stop me if you've heard it :-)
I put several freezers in our screened porch, and plugged them into
the existing outlets. It was a few years later when I smelled something
in out dining room. We sniffed it out but never come up with a source.
Several days later we smelled something again, is seemed like it was in
a corner where we had a TV. A 32" CRT on wheeled cart over carpet, in a
tight spot. I moved it far enough to get my hand on the plug, it was
hot. Nothing was wrong with the plug, it was the outlet.
Moved everything out of the corner and removed the paneling. I found
the outlet had a loose connection that got hot when the freezers ran.
It was a pass through connection to the screened porch. The box had
seriously degraded, it was crumbly plastic and the wiring was clearly
overheated. I did a proper repair and replaced the outlet.
I made a plan and added a sub panel with 4 circuit breakers and 7 new
outlets in the screened porch.
Mikek


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

amdx wrote:


I was in my workshed which is about 60 ft from the house drilling some
aluminum. I got a faint tingle in my hand, I touched the case of my
drill a couple times and didn't feel any thing, so I started to drill
again. I noticed the tingle again, I went through this a few times until
I decided there's a problem. The tingle was at a tiny red spot on my
finger, I later removed a small metalic sliver. If not for the sliver I
probably would not have noticed the missing ground, for I don't know how
long.

Depending on the grounding arrangements, this can sometimes still happen
even if there isn't a complete disconnection or any serious leakage
current.

The sensation of electrical shock is entirely dependent on the current
density in the susceptible tissues, rather than the voltage applied.
Human tissues are very conductive, but dry skin usually acts as a
partial insulator so low voltages don't create enough current to cause
any sensation.

With a sliver of metal puncturing the skin and leading directly into the
underlying tissue, probably quite close to nerve endings, a very low
voltage would develop enough current to be easily detectable. Tests
have suggested that A.C. voltages below the 2v level can be detected by
the tongue when the feet are in a wet, conductive environment.

This is a particular problem where the neutral and earth conductors are
bonded ("P.M.E." in the UK) because the small voltage dropped along the
neutral will apear on any bonded "earthed" metalwork. In farms and
other wet environments, this can lead to animals receiving shocks from
licking handrails, feeding troughs - and from milking machines through
the milk lines directly to their teats.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 05/03/2014 6:36 AM, amdx wrote:
On 5/3/2014 3:26 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 3/05/2014 3:33 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Michael Black"

**I got a story about that too. A few years back I decided to replace
the incandescent fitting in part of my workshop with a double 37 Watt
fluoro fitting. As luck would have it, the wiring was installed in the
ceiling at the same time the slab was poured. I drilled a mounting hole
into the concrete ceiling............ You guessed it. Straight into the
conduit and into the wiring. Had to use surface mount conduit and
re-wire the whole bloody lot. GRRRR.

Yeah, I know. Shoulda used one of those wiring detector thingys.


I have told this before, stop me if you've heard it :-)
I put several freezers in our screened porch, and plugged them into
the existing outlets. It was a few years later when I smelled something
in out dining room. We sniffed it out but never come up with a source.
Several days later we smelled something again, is seemed like it was in
a corner where we had a TV. A 32" CRT on wheeled cart over carpet, in a
tight spot. I moved it far enough to get my hand on the plug, it was
hot. Nothing was wrong with the plug, it was the outlet.
Moved everything out of the corner and removed the paneling. I found the
outlet had a loose connection that got hot when the freezers ran.
It was a pass through connection to the screened porch. The box had
seriously degraded, it was crumbly plastic and the wiring was clearly
overheated. I did a proper repair and replaced the outlet.
I made a plan and added a sub panel with 4 circuit breakers and 7 new
outlets in the screened porch.
Mikek


Freezers should have their own breakers - one per freezer. Food safety
is part of it - you don't want the freezer losing power because someone
trips a breaker and doesn't do anything about it...

But mainly the freezers simply draw too much current to have them share
the power line with anything else. Like air conditioners. Check your
state/provincial/etc. wiring codes...

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

On 5/3/2014 6:37 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 05/03/2014 6:36 AM, amdx wrote:
On 5/3/2014 3:26 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 3/05/2014 3:33 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Michael Black"

**I got a story about that too. A few years back I decided to replace
the incandescent fitting in part of my workshop with a double 37 Watt
fluoro fitting. As luck would have it, the wiring was installed in the
ceiling at the same time the slab was poured. I drilled a mounting hole
into the concrete ceiling............ You guessed it. Straight into the
conduit and into the wiring. Had to use surface mount conduit and
re-wire the whole bloody lot. GRRRR.

Yeah, I know. Shoulda used one of those wiring detector thingys.


I have told this before, stop me if you've heard it :-)
I put several freezers in our screened porch, and plugged them into
the existing outlets. It was a few years later when I smelled something
in out dining room. We sniffed it out but never come up with a source.
Several days later we smelled something again, is seemed like it was in
a corner where we had a TV. A 32" CRT on wheeled cart over carpet, in a
tight spot. I moved it far enough to get my hand on the plug, it was
hot. Nothing was wrong with the plug, it was the outlet.
Moved everything out of the corner and removed the paneling. I found the
outlet had a loose connection that got hot when the freezers ran.
It was a pass through connection to the screened porch. The box had
seriously degraded, it was crumbly plastic and the wiring was clearly
overheated. I did a proper repair and replaced the outlet.
I made a plan and added a sub panel with 4 circuit breakers and 7 new
outlets in the screened porch.
Mikek


Freezers should have their own breakers - one per freezer. Food safety
is part of it - you don't want the freezer losing power because someone
trips a breaker and doesn't do anything about it...

But mainly the freezers simply draw too much current to have them share
the power line with anything else. Like air conditioners. Check your
state/provincial/etc. wiring codes...

John :-#)#

mmm... My sub panel has four-20 amp circuit breakers with 7 outlets.
Plugged into these are 12 freezers plus an ice maker, 400lb per day. The
sub panel was installed back in 2008 or 2009. In those 5 or 6 years I
have never popped one circuit breaker. I thought it possible that two
freezers would try to start at the same time and I might pop one, but it
has never happened. I don't have all 12 freezers on all year, but there
are months when all 12 are in use.
I also have a One Wire System to monitor the freezer temperatures, with
a red alert if the temp gets up to 5* F. First thing every morning when
I wake up the computer I check the freezer temperatures.
Mikek

amdx skrev:


mmm... My sub panel has four-20 amp circuit breakers with 7 outlets.
Plugged into these are 12 freezers plus an ice maker, 400lb per day.

Have you considered getting a refrigerated container instead of the 12
freezers? :-)

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

On 5/4/2014 5:21 PM, Leif Neland wrote:
amdx skrev:


mmm... My sub panel has four-20 amp circuit breakers with 7
outlets. Plugged into these are 12 freezers plus an ice maker, 400lb
per day.

Have you considered getting a refrigerated container instead of the 12
freezers? :-)

Leif

At one time we had one, but they blow cold dry air over our product
which causes freezer burn in a short time. The chest freezers have
worked well for 10+ years and when a freezer stops working I don't have
to worry about moving 6000lbs to a new freezer I don't have.
I just move 650lbs to the empty freezer we always have, because
we always keep one freezer empty, for emergencies.
Mikek

I was going to say because you do not need all the capacity all the time. The emptier the freezer the more it costs to run. I know it doesn't make sense on its face, but it works that way for some reason. I don't know if it has to do wit the opening of the door and thermal mass or what, but even if not, if you only used on efreezer instead of a bunch, it would be like opening all of them up at the same time.

The reliability factor can be dealt with actually by having spare parts and/or a redundant system. This would probably only pay to do if the value of what is in there warrants it.

Another comment, just for the hell of it - I have noticed on Craigslist for example, that people ares elling off these digitally run appliances. In fact on eposter in one of the sci.electronics groups was worried about using a generator or invertor or whatever on a digitally controlled refrigerator. A motor and a mechanical thermostat wouldn't care.

I think microprocessors should usually be kept out of certiaon appliances. I would like this old microwave I had a long time ago. Mechanical timer, but two power levels. This baby had an extra tap on the transformer for low power.

At my house, which I am uinfortunately selling, one of the furnaces is an old thrmopile system. It works without electricity at all. So do the hot water tanks, but I see a few now that use electricity. (I mean gas ones) Refrigerators should not be digital. In fact, wasjing machines and dryers should not be digital.

It is just asking for trouble. Now IF they could control the internal combustion engine well enough without electronics I think that would be good. In fact, the ECM does NOT tume the engine perfectly because there has to be something to burn in the catalytic.

Technology is wonderful, but the fact is that it is not always better. think of the mechanical thermostat in a fridge or freezer. An electronic circuit is actually chepaer. the chips that run tuners in TV and recievers are chaper than the old tuning caps or turret, or even wafer tuners. The voltage to control the volume on sometning coming from a microprocessor is cheaper than a potentiometer.

It is not like technology is bad, I could never say that. I say it should be avoided in certain applications, like the steering and brakes on a car. The fact is though, that electronics is the cheapest way to do it.

Enough rant... Next.

On 5/6/2014 3:27 PM, wrote:
amdx wrote:
It would be easier if the conduit was one size larger, I think it
is 3/4" now.

Unfortunately that conduit stretcher I ordered a few years ago is still
on back order. It's stuck in the same place as the door stretcher (for
getting large equipment into a building).

I have large (maybe 500watt) sodium vapor? light that quits when I
start my sander or skil saw.

These come in several sizes; the ones in the big box stores seem to
be 70 W or 150 W but bigger ones exist.

Ya, this is in a housing that is more than a foot wide x 10".

In a few more years, humans will be able to afford an LED replacement
with equal light output, but probably not yet. (Protip: You have to
buy it just as soon as it's barely affordable, while there is still
some QC on the ballasts. Once it gets really cheap, the ballast will
have been outhoused to People's Shining LED Ballast Factory #39, and
the assembly will start lasting 1/10 of the lifetime of the LED chips.)

It takes a minute to get started again.

It's normal for that kind of lamp to take a little while to restart,
but the fact that it goes out means you have some pretty good voltage
drop right now.


That's why I mentioned it.


Anything wrong with 2-10s and 1-12 for the grd?

Is the shed fed with a 15 amp breaker, 20 amp breaker, or something
else? Normally the ground is the same size as the live and neutral, but
since at least the live and neutral are bigger than they need to be, I
think it is OK. I am not an electrician though.

I think you said this is plastic conduit? Looking at the conduit fill
tables I can find online, 3/4" schedule 40 is good for fifteen 12 AWG
wires or nine 10 AWG wires. Schedule 80 (thicker wall) is 12 and 7
respectively. Plastic conduit will have "Sch 40" or "Sch 80" printed
on the side. If it's some other kind of conduit, Google for "conduit
fill table" and have fun.

Is stranded wire ok by code? I think it is.

I think it is too; it's a lot easier to pull into conduit than solid.
Over a certain size (about 10 or 8 AWG) all you can get is stranded.

One difficulty I have had with stranded wire is trying to attach it to
a switch or receptacle. No matter how hard I twist the strands, it
wants to unravel a little when I bend it into a loop and put it under
the terminal screw. If you have the style of terminal where you put
the wire straight in under a plate, and then tighten the screw down on
the plate, stranded works fine. (This is different than the push-in or
back-wire terminals, which only "work" with solid wire.)

If the first place inside the shed that the wire from the conduit goes
is a disconnect/breaker box, or it gets wire-nutted to the wiring inside
the shed, you won't have this problem. If the first place the wire from
the conduit goes is a switch or receptacle, you might have a better time
if you splice on 6" or so of solid wire with a wire nut, and connect the
solid wire to the device.

Matt Roberds


I've been working on the project since 9am. I now have about 16ft of
new conduit in and ran all new wire, no connections underground. I
replaced what was 12 gauge with 10 gauge. I had a bit of a snag getting
the cable puller ran through the conduit. I started at the other and and
had the same problem. A little end adjustment and it made it through the
snag. Once I got things going it pulled very easy, if
not for that connection problem you mentioned, I may have ran a couple
more #10s and really looked after that voltage drop. I had thoughts
about doing that but decided the connection would be a fight.
At this point, I have not reburied anything or made any connections
at either end. I'll probably just pick up tools before dark and finish
on another day.
My memory failed me, I did not bury a box, I put in two of the small
elbows with access covers held by two screws. These made a U around the
tower that started the whole problem.
I'll post a couple of pictures after I rest.
Mikek

On 5/6/2014 5:56 PM, amdx wrote:


I've been working on the project since 9am. I now have about 16ft of
new conduit in and ran all new wire, no connections underground. I
replaced what was 12 gauge with 10 gauge. I had a bit of a snag getting
the cable puller ran through the conduit. I started at the other and and
had the same problem. A little end adjustment and it made it through the
snag. Once I got things going it pulled very easy, if
not for that connection problem you mentioned, I may have ran a couple
more #10s and really looked after that voltage drop. I had thoughts
about doing that but decided the connection would be a fight.
At this point, I have not reburied anything or made any connections
at either end. I'll probably just pick up tools before dark and finish
on another day.
My memory failed me, I did not bury a box, I put in two of the small
elbows with access covers held by two screws. These made a U around the
tower that started the whole problem.
I'll post a couple of pictures after I rest.
Mikek

I finished making the connections at both ends last night. I flipped on
the breaker and it stayed on, good sign. I went to the work shed and it
had power, I tested a couple of outlets, they tested properly. I turned
on my sander to see if the Sodium Vapor light still shut down,
yippee, it stayed on. The 10 gauge made the difference in the voltage
drop. The conduit was 1/2", except where I replaced it with 3/4".
The original installer should have put in 10 gauge wire, it's 80ft,
but the shed he wired to just has a light and one outlet. I built the
second shed with all the high power equipment. So it made sense at his time.
I autopsied the connections in the conduit body, (square elbow with
removable cover) and found the ground wire completely corroded through.
I lifted out the wire nut with about an inch of wire attached, the other
one corroded apart up inside the wire nut.

Here's a couple of pictures, Before.
http://tinyurl.com/krpx5yk

And after
http://tinyurl.com/ne8x3oq

If Jim reads this, you can see the Jawhorse in the back ground,
I used it to hold a shaft with three reels of wire for easy
unwinding as I pulled it.

And as someone mentioned the GCFI is bad, the test button still doesn't
work. I'll replace that soon.

The sod went back in and looked good.
BTW. I noticed water seeping into puddle at 18"
Water table is still very high.
Mikek

In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
I flipped on the breaker and it stayed on, good sign.

Smoke test: pass!

I turned on my sander to see if the Sodium Vapor light still shut
down, yippee, it stayed on.

Progress.

I autopsied the connections in the conduit body, (square elbow with
removable cover) and found the ground wire completely corroded
through.

Did those bodies have a gasket between the lid and the body? I've seen
them both ways, with gasket and without. The gasket is usually about
2 mm or so of neoprene rubber.

And after
http://tinyurl.com/ne8x3oq

I see the tower base that precipitated all this in the first place
seems to be out of use...

And as someone mentioned the GCFI is bad, the test button still
doesn't work. I'll replace that soon.

If you have any other GFCIs around, you might test them too. It's a
little bit cheaper to buy the two-pack or three-pack at the big box
store.

Thanks for posting back with the results!

Matt Roberds

On 5/8/2014 6:28 PM, wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
I flipped on the breaker and it stayed on, good sign.

Smoke test: pass!

I turned on my sander to see if the Sodium Vapor light still shut
down, yippee, it stayed on.

Progress.

I autopsied the connections in the conduit body, (square elbow with
removable cover) and found the ground wire completely corroded
through.

Did those bodies have a gasket between the lid and the body? I've seen
them both ways, with gasket and without. The gasket is usually about
2 mm or so of neoprene rubber.

One of them I sealed shut with pvc cement, it didn't leak. The other
one, I don't think it had a gasket and I didn't seal it. I don't know
what my thinking was. (lack of thinking)


And after
http://tinyurl.com/ne8x3oq

I see the tower base that precipitated all this in the first place
seems to be out of use...

Yes, I had a rotatable Flag antenna, with a variable termination.
It worked great, until a Fiberglas arm gave up. That was second
iteration, on the first I used Bambo, that I cut, dried and epoxy
painted. I got more than 10 years out of it. I still have all the parts,
but now I have an Internet Radio, and that allows me to
listen to almost any radio station. No more DX listening.
The Internet radio took away my interest in radio antennas. :-(

Here's a picture of the antenna when it was assembled.
http://tinyurl.com/lzl7skf

And the tripod with rotor.
http://tinyurl.com/mblb9cc

I had it setup so I could even tilt the crossarm,
for repair, transformer or Vactrol changes.

http://tinyurl.com/lge9myf



And as someone mentioned the GCFI is bad, the test button still
doesn't work. I'll replace that soon.

If you have any other GFCIs around, you might test them too. It's a
little bit cheaper to buy the two-pack or three-pack at the big box
store.

Thanks for posting back with the results!

Matt Roberds

In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
The Internet radio took away my interest in radio antennas. :-(

Some shortwave broadcasters (like the BBC) don't even beam signals at
North America anymore, for pretty much exactly this reason. You can
sort of pick them up on frequencies that they aim elsewhere.

Sometimes when I'm on a long drive at night, I will do a little casual
AM DXing with the car radio. The last *serious* AM DX I did was probably
2005, when I could pick up United Radio Broadcasters of New Orleans at
night in Tulsa.

I had it setup so I could even tilt the crossarm,
for repair, transformer or Vactrol changes.

*looks up Vactrol* Oh, an optoisolator. Did you use the photocell to
switch the "real" termination resistors in and out, or was the photocell
itself the termination resistor?

Matt Roberds

" bit cheaper to buy the two-pack or three-pack at the big box
store. "

DON'T !

thoise cheapo things are cheapo for a reason. they meet specs, but they got ****ty screws on them, and the bare minimum of body and ****. I did a wiring job and I got like three callbacks lights wouldn't work. Like It is my fault. Well thsat's what we thoiught, but the ****ing switches were going bad in the time of about a month. Some of them went bad before the ****ing whole job was even done ! (which is good in terms of customer relations because at least we took care fo it before the phone EVER rang)

When you tsake to ding wiring, consider it a permanent thing. think aboput this, whatever wiring was not adequate for your purpose now, who9ever did that is dead. His wiring WAS fine. Un itl now.

so gety the ****ing Leviton. Get the Square D QO series panel. DO NOT BE A CHEAP ASS MOTHER****ER.

You'll be glad you didn't. don't get the cheapest breakers either,l or anyhting. Maybe conduit, but what about wire ? HAve trouble pulling it ? Got THHN ? See, THHN is the cat;'s ass almost inb wire because the insulation is so dense, it is actually PACKED by an douter sheath so tight, and nice and shiny. You can literally get more wires through the pipe with it than with, sat THW. That THW has a coarse insulation, and too damn thick.

Of course they got power puller as well now. hook it up to that tape and it'll pull a ****ing bowling ball through there.

And you know one otehr thing Mr Hack Electrician ?

I know what the "pros" do. Fukum. (even family)

People do not want outlets at the middle of the wall, the want the outlets at the corners.

think about it and think about why I get jobs like this instead of the guys with their name on the truck.

Rant over., It will be available for picking over and attacking me for... .... ... ..

Umm, eternity or the collapse of human society, whichever comes first.

On 5/8/2014 9:58 PM, wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair amdx wrote:
The Internet radio took away my interest in radio antennas. :-(

Some shortwave broadcasters (like the BBC) don't even beam signals at
North America anymore, for pretty much exactly this reason. You can
sort of pick them up on frequencies that they aim elsewhere.

Sometimes when I'm on a long drive at night, I will do a little casual
AM DXing with the car radio. The last *serious* AM DX I did was probably
2005, when I could pick up United Radio Broadcasters of New Orleans at
night in Tulsa.

I had it setup so I could even tilt the crossarm,
for repair, transformer or Vactrol changes.

*looks up Vactrol* Oh, an optoisolator. Did you use the photocell to
switch the "real" termination resistors in and out, or was the photocell
itself the termination resistor?

Matt Roberds

As the termination, but I did pad it with resistors to get the range I
wanted, series and parallel. Off the top of my head, I would think
something like 300 to 1300 ohms. I had a control box back at my radio to
adjust for maximum null. I used it mostly for the AMBC, but it help on
160 meters also.

Mikek

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This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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wrote:
" bit cheaper to buy the two-pack or three-pack at the big box
store. "

DON'T !

thoise cheapo things are cheapo for a reason. they meet specs, but
they got ****ty screws on them, and the bare minimum of body and ****.

Calm down and sober up a little.

I was specifically talking about GFCIs. When I moved into this house in
2009, I needed three of them: two to replace non-GFCI bathroom outlets
(which was legal when the house was built) and one to add an outlet in
the garage where there was previously just a light switch. When I went
to Home Depot, they had Leviton GFCIs for about $7 or $8 quantity one,
or Leviton GFCIs with exactly the same part number in a box of three for
about $1 less apiece ($18 to $21 for the box). That's what I was
thinking about when I wrote the above.

For "regular" non-GFCI outlets, or switches, I quit buying the 39 cent
jobs more than 15 years ago. My original application was replacing worn
out 30-year-old outlets in my previous house, and I wanted to install
something better than what was there. Earlier in the thread with amdx,
the following exchange happened:

amdx My previous in the garage measurements were in error, everything
amdx in the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years old and make
amdx poor connection on the slots.

me That's a different rainy-day project for the spring or fall (when
me you can turn off the juice without interrupting the furnace or
me aircon). Buy "spec grade" outlets of the right color in boxes of 10
me at your favorite big-box store and work around the house replacing
me them. (The "spec grade" stuff should cost about $1 apiece.)

Since I was doing an entire house full (about three dozen), it was worth
it to buy the boxes of ten. They were Pass and Seymour Legrand, spec
grade, and about $10 or $11 a box. I still have a couple, new in the
box.

When you tsake to ding wiring, consider it a permanent thing. think
aboput this, whatever wiring was not adequate for your purpose now,
who9ever did that is dead. His wiring WAS fine. Un itl now.

The very first all-new circuit I installed, at the age of 16, is still
going strong 25 years later. I expect it to still work when I inherit
that house in another 25 years or so.

so gety the ****ing Leviton.

I just get the regular kind. http://xkcd.com/90/

Get the Square D QO series panel.

But this Federal Pacific Electric one still works!

People do not want outlets at the middle of the wall, the want the
outlets at the corners.

In Germany, it's fairly common to see a receptacle right underneath the
switch for the overhead light, as you walk into the room. The switch is
at about the same height as it is here and the receptacle is immediately
underneath it (like, its cover plate touches the switch cover plate).
This gives you an outlet that is unlikely to be blocked by furniture,
because people want to be able to reach the light switch.

I later got a German D-I-Y wiring book and one of the things I think it
was trying to tell me is that "switch loops" are verboten - the feed
always comes to the switch first, then goes to the fixture. This might
explain why it's easy to have a receptacle at the switch.

Matt Roberds

"Calm down and sober up a little. "

LOL. Yup.

Sometimes I "sound" like that. I wwas fairly calm, but my style of writing as well as speech is, well, forward might be the word.

Fact is though, those elcheapo components are just as much a PITA in the electrical biz as anywhere else. Problem is the consequences can be worse than a fried PC board. I've seen outlet that werew so cheap that when you put a solid 12 guage wire to them, just benidn it to stuff it in the box causes the body of the thing to break. How is that UL listed ? Bad ? When I was a kid I had a little joke. They told us to behave. I did, it's just that I behaved badly.

Ivan the terrible (Cleveland electrical inspector) told me the Square D QO series is about the best you can get in panels and breakers. Not having done extensive product testing I just take his word for it. Actually I didn't name him that, not did I find him terrible. He just did his job.

Any being ****ed off about electrical components I guess is right at ME. I didn't pay much attention and bought a couple of ten packs or whatever of outlets. I thought, hey, they're selling them so they must be good. The owrst part is that thia job was a labor only, we had the customer's credit card in hand. Material cost was no object. Between the friggin outlets falling apart and light switches just deciding to switch off permanently, it was an aggravation. I had to go back a couple times for that, even before the whole job was done !

Anyway, from what I have heard form people really in the business is they almost always replace Federal Pacifics because they have a bad fault mode. SOmetimes a breaker's trip point drifts. Usually it drifts down and in fact this happens more when the breaker is used as a switch. They don't recommend it but a whole lot of businesses do it. Just not sposed to, but oh well.

In the case of ht eFP breakers, some of the trip point drift UP. Most breakers after getting beat oin for a number of year will start to trip low, and cause a nuisance. When the trip point drifts high, tha tis bad. Also note the cosrt of replacement FP breakers. I havene't done a whole lot of this work in the last coiuple of years but last I checked FP breakers were phenomenally expensive compared even to QO. I guess the new ones don't have that problem.

Anyway, you all probably know that I am not afraid to do things in unconcventional ways, but I am a stickler when it comes to electrical wiring. Granted very few fires happen because of wirse in the wall. I mean there is a safety margin. If you have 30 amps runing through 12 guage it is not going to burn the place down, but you sillt don't want to do that. Most problems are caused by what people do, even if the wiring is not up to snuff.

Actually if you take the numbers, alot of other things cause fires, rather than electricity.

Well, then we have my buddy Jack. We worked together quite a bit in the past and we were like TIm the Toolman, but without the screwups. Except for sometimes.

I don't remember exactly why, but he was into the wall, of his own house, with a sawzall one time, doing whatever. You would thionk he might know where things are... Well he sawed through a piece of Romex and the place went dark.

OK, there is nothing really special about that, it happens, but in this case it happened while there were about 30 people over for some sort of family shigdin, shndis, whatever.

Now other people sit and talk, catch up on old times, you know. Not Jack and his brothers in law. Nope. For tyhem guys, something has to have a trigger, whether it is a Colt 45 or a sawzall. (not the beer, they drink Bud)

No matter what, have fun. Some people say this "You onlyy live once" thing is a copout, but I have found it quite the opposite.

On Saturday, May 10, 2014 1:33:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I later got a German D-I-Y wiring book and one of the things I think it

was trying to tell me is that "switch loops" are verboten - the feed

always comes to the switch first, then goes to the fixture. This might

explain why it's easy to have a receptacle at the switch.



Matt Roberds

We lived in Germany a few years courtesy of the Army, renting a house in a small farm village.

Our house wasn't wired like that. All the switches seemed to be wired back to the panel on each floor, which was full of change-of-state relays. When you hit a light switch you'd hear a clunk in the hallway. Most rooms had multiple switches in convenient locations.

One thing that was very nice (and probably accounts for the outlet being below the switch you mentioned) was that electrical wiring was required to travel ONLY vertically or horizontally. When you see an outlet, don't drill anywhere on a vertical or horizontal line, but everywhere else is safe.

"I later got a German D-I-Y wiring book and one of the things I think it
was trying to tell me is that "switch loops" are verboten - the feed
always comes to the switch first, then goes to the fixture. "

You know that screws it up for cieling fans. Generally ?I like to wire a cieling fan so the fan has constant power. This way the light(s) can be on a dimmer and the pull chain controls the fan motor independently.

Of ocurse then there is no neutral so there can be no outlet unless you use three conductors.

I don't really like using white for a hot but they say it's OK. Of courss you have to mark it.

On Monday, May 12, 2014 9:03:29 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
On Saturday, May 10, 2014 1:33:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:

I later got a German D-I-Y wiring book and one of the things I think it



was trying to tell me is that "switch loops" are verboten - the feed



always comes to the switch first, then goes to the fixture. This might



explain why it's easy to have a receptacle at the switch.







Matt Roberds



We lived in Germany a few years courtesy of the Army, renting a house in a small farm village.



Our house wasn't wired like that. All the switches seemed to be wired back to the panel on each floor, which was full of change-of-state relays. When you hit a light switch you'd hear a clunk in the hallway. Most rooms had multiple switches in convenient locations.



One thing that was very nice (and probably accounts for the outlet being below the switch you mentioned) was that electrical wiring was required to travel ONLY vertically or horizontally. When you see an outlet, don't drill anywhere on a vertical or horizontal line, but everywhere else is safe.

Something I didn't mention that may have relevance: when you move into an apartment in Germany, normally there are no ceiling fixtures, just wires hanging. Everybody buys their own and installs it.