Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

"Danny D'Amico"

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif


** There must be a fuse inside that unit - wired in series with the 16.5V
secondary.


If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

** It's probably worn out .


Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

** Open circuit testing a gell cell tells you nothing.

(I don't know how to load it though):


So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

** The voltages on the transformer went high enough to cause a big increase
in current and fuse failure, maybe something inside the alarm box failed
too.

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.


.... Phil

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:00:25 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described he
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal

Anyone ever take them up on their "limited" lifetime warranty?
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literatu...440_Data_Sheet

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:04:21 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
but it ain't.
Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.
And that is really stupid and annoying.

I apologize. As the record shows (in alt.free.newsservers), I had a problem with
aioe.org triplicating posts, which, after a while, caused aioe to drop all posts
due to "too many errors". Pan, my news client, didn't tell me, so, all posts
were lost.

So, I didn't have access to aioe.

When I asked what to do, people said to switch to Solani. But, Solani *forces* you
to have a single followup! You can't possibly have a followup to the groups you posted
to. I asked alt.free.newsservers *why* Solani does that, and, the answer came back
they can do whatever they want (so, the point is, that it doesn't make any sense).

I can't win either way.

After a few days, Aioe let me back in (this is a recurring theme with them); so,
hopefully, this will get to both groups (and also alt.free.newsservers) because
I'll send it via aioe.

Of course, it could just go nowhere ... and I'll never know, because Pan won't warn
me until it's too late (but that's in another thread to news.software.nntp).

"Danny D'Amico"
Phil Allison wrote:

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described he
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal


** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.

PTCs self reset once they cool down.

IME a tranny that is well made, moisture sealed and has a PTC in the output
ought to last 10 to 20 years.



..... Phil

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:42:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Me neither. I'll call them on Monday (they're not open weekends).

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.
PTCs self reset once they cool down.

It has had plenty of time to cool down!
I think the burnt plastic smell gives me a clue.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif

2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif

3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif

4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

This makes no sense to me; but I'm not an EE.

Does this (repeatable) information above tell us anything about
the power supply or battery?

Note: This dent in the capacitor was due to it being pressed
down against the transistor (I pushed it away):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/1...136e612d_o.gif

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:02:58 -0800, wrote:

In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

The strangest thing happened when I took you up on your suggestion!

A. The battery, connected to the power supply, was 12.87 volts:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/1...ba3777a7_o.gif

B. I also read 12.87 volts at the very edge of the power supply,
so, the wires are good:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...364f93f1_o.gif

C. I then got 12.87 volts between the battery and the GND spade on
the power supply board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif

D. But, the strangest thing is there is no voltage between the
battery and the PWR spade of the power supply:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of those conflicting results.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:


snip

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

What connects to this connector?

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.


The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

On 11/23/2013 10:44 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.


That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module. The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer. If you or one of your friends can
repair circuit boards, get him/her/it to take a look at it because it's
a fairly simple circuit. I would remove the module and hook the panel's
power leads directly to the battery. Hopefully, the battery charging
circuit on the panel's circuit board is not damaged. ^_^

TDD

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/1...1c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/1...a5301efd_o.gif

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:32:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

I just realized, that's *not* a power supply board!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/1...f98f0bb4_o.gif

It says it's a "D135A Low Battery Disconnect", part number
79-04360401 (where the last 4 and last 1 might be another digit).

Googling, I find these datasheets:
http://resource.boschsecurity.com/do...2548187915.pdf
http://www.boschsecurity.com.br/_arc...on_0910_en.pdf

Which say:
"The D135A works with compatible control panels to protect the
battery from deep discharge in the event of an extended AC
power outage. Disconnects the control panel from the battery
when the battery level drops to 9.5 VDC."

I find an installation guide here, which explains that the sticky tape
is because the module is supposed to be stuck onto the top of the battery:
http://tinyurl.com/p74he4t

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?

Dud, it looks to me like you got a bad module..
the Cap is bad just to look at, and since you need the relay to close to
pass the voltage to the terminals, anything in that hold-in circuit thats
bad will disable that..
discard the module, if you still need a low voltage disconnect feature,
try
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...r-power-switch
the Elk 965 will disconnect the power when voltage drops below its threshold
...

rts

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/1...a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...1013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/1...045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/1...a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/1...9b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/1...4e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/1...a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...1013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/1...045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/1...a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/1...9b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/1...4e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?



Hi,
First of all, did you check the battery by hooking up a 12V automotive
bulb to really see it is holding good charge at 12V? Secondly remove one
leg of diodes and check them, one may be Zener type. do the same with
capacitor. Remove any two legs off the circuit and check that
transistor. The other K1 is a relay, you can check it same way.
Then go to next step which you are trying to do now. First thing first.
If you can find a URL for schematic, it'll be lot easier to TS.

No power supply on your work bench? If so you can use it as well.
I have a lab. grade power supply with several commonly used voltage o/p.
Very handy item to have.

On 11/23/2013 1:59 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?


"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.
I haven't worked exclusively in the alarm industry for many years but I
would get into alarms from time to time. Your alarm system is at least
21 years old. The date code on the small round bridge rectifier on the
circuit board looks like it was manufactured in 1992. ^_^

TDD

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/1...4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?

http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radi...n%20Manual.pdf

On 11/23/2013 1:07 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/1...1c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/1...a5301efd_o.gif


It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

TDD

On 11/23/2013 3:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif


Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

TDD

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:39:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radi...n%20Manual.pdf

That's a very nice find, especially since three things appear to have been blown
when I turned the power off without turning off the generator:

1. The ELK TRG140 16.5V AC transformer secondary windings are now open
2. The D135A battery-protection board cap is apparently blown
3. The Radionics D2212B alarm circuit board is apparently malfunctioning

The test of the Radionics board was to hook the battery directly to
the power and ground leads. That drew 98ma and the alarm system merely
beeped an incessant single beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for the entire time that
I left the battery connected.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/1...4f8a7d31_o.gif

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:23:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.

That is the most direct test I could have run, so, following your advice,
I took the power and ground leads coming out of the alarm system board
and plugged them directly into the battery, which was at 13.5 volts.

The current draw was 98 ma.

But the only thing that happened was the alarm system made a single
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep that lasted the entire
time that the battery was connected.

I tried this, multiple times, for no longer than the time it took to
snap this picture though, as I didn't want to ruin anything further.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/1...4f8a7d31_o.gif

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:10:37 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

I'm surprised you knew *where* the transformer leads entered the board,
because I didn't say, so, but I see what you're talking about.

Also, I'm surprised you knew that was a bridge rectifier, because, well,
because I didn't - but - looking at it from the side, I can see four
uninsulated legs, which indicate it has four leads, one of which is
marked "+".

Here is the same picture, but, with a few things marked that I know of
(including the electrolytic capacitor I think you're talking about):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/1...62578375_o.png

I looked and touched and that cap seems OK visually; but, of course,
it's probably 20 years old...

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...


You could try www.tech-man.com for a used replacement board, bearing in mind
that any used replacement board is likely to be close to the same age as
yours.

I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Doug

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/1...4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?


It's more likely that there were problems, and the situation wouldn't
let it start working again.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:11:27 -0800, doug wrote:

I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Any recommendations, given my goal would be to use all the existing
equipment except the board itself and the power supply?

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 05:59:05 -0800, wrote:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/1...4f8a7d31_o.gif

I think you're screwed. But I like the meter. I have the same one,
going on 30 years now.

Yeah. I've blown the 'bar' inside for the 10A fuse (my fault) and,
I've had to replace the disc-shaped battery once (or twice?) but
mine has to be from the early or mid 80s and it's still going
strong.

It's strange that all three things are bad:
1. The power transformer secondary blew open
2. The battery-tender capacitor overheated
3. The main circuit board isn't working

I wonder what my options are ...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, wrote:

If you can verify that the board has proper power on it from
a battery and it's still not working, I'd say it's time to buy
a new panel. You can get them for $150 or so.

That's probably what I'm going to have to do.

Meanwhile, ELK called me back and explained the "limited" part
of the "lifetime warranty" on the AC transformer. The service
technician said mine has a PTC fuse in the secondary.

He said ELK will replace it for free as long as it was used
within the specifications of the device, e.g., in an approved
alarm system (which it was).

They told me I could send it to them, or, I could contact these
local "trade distributors" to see if they would work with a
homeowner:
1. Home Tech Solution 408-257-4406
2. Custom Electronics Supply 408-452-8300
3. http://smarthome.com 800-762-7846

So, at the very least, I'll get the transformer replaced,
under warranty, by one of those four. Also, I'll ask all of
them how much they sell the board I need.

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, wrote:

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?


You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

Doug

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:03:16 -0800, wrote:


I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
alarm panel.

Replacing the alarm panel is fine by me, but, I spoke to someone
at Bosch who said that the "frequencies are different" for each
manufacturer.

Is that true?

Seems to me that an alarm system as a simple job. If the switch
is open, ring the alarm.

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

Is it true that only a Bosch/Radionics panel will work with
Bosch/Radionics controllers and Bosch/Radionics switches
and motion and smoke detectors?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with the
dollar bill? $

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs!

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

Hmmm,
If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:03:16 -0800, wrote:


I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
alarm panel.

Replacing the alarm panel is fine by me, but, I spoke to someone
at Bosch who said that the "frequencies are different" for each
manufacturer.

Is that true?

Seems to me that an alarm system as a simple job. If the switch
is open, ring the alarm.

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

Is it true that only a Bosch/Radionics panel will work with
Bosch/Radionics controllers and Bosch/Radionics switches
and motion and smoke detectors?

Hi,
You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.