On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

On 11/07/2012 7:37 PM, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?



The generator probably has poor stability in both voltage and frequency.
Equipment that's senstitive to those may indeed break.

Sylvia.

"D. T. Green" wrote in message
...
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator
with a portable television?


Blimey, if even the manufacturer is telling you its crap, it must be REALLY
crap.

No way I'd connect one to anything of mine.



Gareth.

On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

I suspect your problem will be mainly electrical interference. Charging
up a battery to use with your TV would get around this and be quieter.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

D. T. Green wrote in message
...
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?




If I was using one I'd wire in permanently a baseload 100W mains bulb
(assuming you are allowed to start up with a pre-existing load) . If the
lamp flickers /wavers then no use with a TV but if a constant light output
I'd try only a sacrificial old TV with an old set-top box , if the picture
rolls from lack of frequency control then at least I tried.

"D. T. Green" wrote in message
...
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator
with a portable television?


Some of the extra money paind for more expensive generators goes towards the
extra electronics which ensure a stable a/c output similar to mains current.
This is generaly described as an inverter system

Believe the instructions.
It is not suitable.

There are warnings against these very cheap generators on caravan and mobile
home discussion fora, as they can damage the internal electrics of the more
sophisticated systems.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:37:31 +0100, "D. T. Green"
wrote:

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

After looking at the subject I thought, we've had gas powered fridges,
now a petrol powered telly...


--

In article ,
D. T. Green wrote:
Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
generator with a portable television?

Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
popular.

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2012-07-11, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

2 stroke is typically noisy, and often smoky, it's just the way they
work

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

CRT televisions need well regulated line frequency, as do clocks and
some other "sensitive equipment"

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

an AVR is more likely to help if there's voltage problems...

--
š‚šƒ 100% natural

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-11, D. T. wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

2 stroke is typically noisy, and often smoky, it's just the way they
work

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

CRT televisions need well regulated line frequency, as do clocks and
some other "sensitive equipment"

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

an AVR is more likely to help if there's voltage problems...

If you want to run tv,a lot of small modern tvs run on 12v dc so use
your generator to charge a car battery and run the tv off that.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:37:31 +0100, "D. T. Green"
wrote:

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

All 2 stroke engines are noisy. 4 stroke engines are much quieter.
Running "rough" could mean no regulation. This generator is a piece
of junk.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

That's because the voltage and frequency output is probably not
regulated. Light bulbs, heaters, and resistive loads might survive.
Anything electronic or that uses a motor, probably won't.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
£59 ).

No experience. I don't need to stick my hand in the fire to know that
it's hot.

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves?

Yep. Unsuitable for any purpose other than making lots of noise.

Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

No. If the generator goes into over voltage, even for a few fractions
of second, the MOV (metal oxide varistors) in the "surge protector"
will explode, catch fire, and eventually blow a fuse. Surge
protectors also don't do anything for changes in frequency.

Look into various "inverter generator" offerings. They're quiet,
efficient, low RFI, and have a fairly clean and regulated output.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:19:21 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:12*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
popular.

Surely that depends on the choice of programme?
It might be extremely popular if it's showing the women's beach
volleyball ;-)

I don't think the program matters much if the viewers need a gas mask
and ear plugs in order to watch the TV. Last time I checked, many
small LCD TV's run nicely on 12V battery power. No need for
generator. For example:
http://www.capitalstores.co.uk/12v-tv

I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
home.

I'm impressed that the question was cross posted to a repair
newsgroup. That suggests that the generator or the TV will soon
require some manner of repair. Planning ahead is a good thing.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too and
the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable TV. It
might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or frequency wise
that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd expect most
modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but then you are
taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.



I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties as
spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly on a
day with a Y in it ...

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea. OK to run a few lights
(but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear flourescents), and maybe
power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in mind for it. I've actually
found Aldi to be pretty honest in this respect. It's cheap, and they know
it, hence the warnings.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything
but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.



I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them
wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...


No. they just rectify teh peaks.

But iron transformers dont like odd waveforms.

Having said that, ive used a genny to power a laptop for watching TV on
in a camper.


However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea. OK to run a
few lights (but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear
flourescents), and maybe power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in
mind for it. I've actually found Aldi to be pretty honest in this
respect. It's cheap, and they know it, hence the warnings.

Arfa




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 07:43:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
All 2 stroke engines are noisy.

Although the bigger they are, the quieter they seem to be for their size.

The Other Mike wrote:
After looking at the subject I thought, we've had gas powered fridges,
now a petrol powered telly...

Eh ... after looking at the subject I thought it was about a device that
would generate petrol, maybe it was seen on TV.

Jeff Liebermann wrote
D. T. Green wrote

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from
Aldi, we have heard from someone who says that he has got
one; and that his is running very roughly, and is really noisy.

All 2 stroke engines are noisy. 4 stroke engines are much quieter.
Running "rough" could mean no regulation.

This generator is a piece of junk.

Not necessarily, it may be quite adequate.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

That's because the voltage and frequency output is probably not regulated.

Yes.

Light bulbs, heaters, and resistive loads might survive.

The last two certainly will.

Anything electronic or that uses a motor, probably won't.

That's just plain wrong if it has modern switch mode power supply.

Plenty of those are very happy to operate over a range of 80-260V and
couldn't care less about the frequency because they rectify the mains.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ?
(Only £59 ).

No experience.

That's obvious.

I don't need to stick my hand in the fire to know that it's hot.

But you don't understand about modern switch mode power supplys.

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves?

Yep. Unsuitable for any purpose other than making lots of noise.

Wrong.

Would buying something like a *surge- protector* make
it possible to use the generator with a portable television?

No. If the generator goes into over voltage, even for a few fractions
of second, the MOV (metal oxide varistors) in the "surge protector"
will explode, catch fire, and eventually blow a fuse. Surge
protectors also don't do anything for changes in frequency.

If the TV has a switch mode power supply, it wont care about the frequency.

Look into various "inverter generator" offerings. They're quiet,
efficient, low RFI, and have a fairly clean and regulated output.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too and
the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable TV. It
might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or frequency wise
that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd expect most
modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but then you are
taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.



I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly on
a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

OK to run a few lights (but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear
flourescents), and maybe power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in
mind for it. I've actually found Aldi to be pretty honest in this respect.
It's cheap, and they know it, hence the warnings.

But it may well be fine if the device has a switch mode power
supply that's happy with an input voltage of 80-26V and couldn't
care less about the frequency because it rectifys the mains.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
D. T. Green wrote:
Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
generator with a portable television?

Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
popular.


I have a similar generator, and I think there is labeling caution in using
electronics. The little generator is very quiet with no load. With load
it's a lot louder. I do have a big Aldi generator of 5kw continuous. It's
pretty quiet, but does not get much louder with load. I understand there
about 4 companies in china making generators, for Honda, yamaha, etc. The
bigger generators all have the same look, but the smaller ones are
different. My $350 dollar generator looks like a $2000 yamaha. After I paid
$350 , they went to $300, which is at least $200 cheaper than anything of
comparable type, including harbor freight.

Greg

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.



I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly
on a day with a Y in it ...


No. they just rectify teh peaks.


Yes. In my experience into bloody great voltages that destroy the switching
FETs ...



But iron transformers dont like odd waveforms.


Agreed, but the waveform has got to be very odd before nasties like core
saturation start taking place. OTOH, transient crap tends to just be slugged
by the considerable L of the primary winding. The fundamental waveform of
this generator is still likely to be a pretty fair sine wave, irrespective
of its voltage and frequency stability, and how much spiky garbage is
floating on the top. Of far greater concern with iron cored trannies, is
their response to being hung on the end of a non sinusoidal inverter



Having said that, ive used a genny to power a laptop for watching TV on in
a camper.


However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea. OK to run a few
lights (but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear flourescents),
and maybe power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in mind for it.
I've actually found Aldi to be pretty honest in this respect. It's cheap,
and they know it, hence the warnings.

Arfa




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.



I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly
on a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.


I repair hundreds of the things, and irrespective of the topology of any
individual design, most work by the skin of their teeth. Left alone, in
general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my experience,
subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often catastrophically

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Martin Brown wrote
D. T. Green wrote

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
running very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything
but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them
wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

I repair hundreds of the things,

But clearly don't understand the basics with well designed switch mode power
supplys.

and irrespective of the topology of any individual design, most work by
the skin of their teeth.

That's just plain wrong.

Left alone, in general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my
experience, subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often
catastrophically

Switch mode power supplys, particularly the ones designed
to work on a voltage range of 80-260V don't, and they
don't give a damn about the frequency of the mains
from a generator, because they rectify the mains.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Martin Brown wrote
D. T. Green wrote

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
running very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything
but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them
wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

I repair hundreds of the things,

But clearly don't understand the basics with well designed switch mode
power supplys.

and irrespective of the topology of any individual design, most work by
the skin of their teeth.

That's just plain wrong.

Left alone, in general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my
experience, subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often
catastrophically

Switch mode power supplys, particularly the ones designed
to work on a voltage range of 80-260V don't, and they
don't give a damn about the frequency of the mains
from a generator, because they rectify the mains.


Oh, how silly of me not to know that ...


Where did I ever dispute that such designs don't care about frequency or
input voltage ? I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
predisposition towards catastrophic failure - and I base that on many years
of repairing the things every week for a living. Even if they do have a PFC
front end, that in itself is just another SMPS, and the control IC and
switching FET are just as prone to failure as in any other design.

Arfa

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:21:51 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.
Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.
I like switchers.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.


** Only sometimes, in many SMPS designs the output goes high.

If that is on a 5V rail, it destroys most of the ICs.

Very few have a "crowbar" to stop it .


Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.

** Unregulated ones do no such thing.


The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

** Just like SMPS do then, but far less commonly.


I like switchers.

** But you are an utter ass.



..... Phil

Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Martin Brown wrote
D. T. Green wrote

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi,
we have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that
his is running very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost
anything but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is
unsuitable.

I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at
them wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

I repair hundreds of the things,

But clearly don't understand the basics with well designed switch mode
power supplys.

and irrespective of the topology of any individual design, most work by
the skin of their teeth.

That's just plain wrong.

Left alone, in general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in
my experience, subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail -
often catastrophically

Switch mode power supplys, particularly the ones designed
to work on a voltage range of 80-260V don't, and they
don't give a damn about the frequency of the mains
from a generator, because they rectify the mains.

Oh, how silly of me not to know that ...

But clearly can't work out for yourself that
they will work fine on that generator.

Where did I ever dispute that such designs don't care about frequency or
input voltage ? I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
predisposition towards catastrophic failure

And using one of those on that generator doesn't qualify.

- and I base that on many years of repairing the things every week for a
living.

But clearly can't work out for yourself that
they will work fine on that generator.

Even if they do have a PFC front end, that in itself is just another SMPS,
and the control IC and switching FET are just as prone to failure as in
any other design.

Wrong when the only downside of that generator is that
it may well not control the voltage and frequency of what
it generates very accurately. The SMPS won't give a damn.

Jeff Liebermann wrote
Arfa Daily wrote

I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have
a predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

Not always.

Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.
The output usually goes to the maximum of whatever the
unregulated part of the power supply will deliver,

Yes.

which destroys everything connected to it.

Not necessarily.

I like switchers.

Me too, particularly when used on that sort of cheap generator.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Jeff Liebermann wrote
Arfa Daily wrote

I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a predisposition
towards catastrophic failure (...)

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

Not always.
Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the power
supply will deliver,

Yes.


No.



which destroys everything connected to it.



Both of these are an extraordinarily rare ocurrence in the real world.



Gareth.

..

Wrong when the only downside of that generator is that
it may well not control the voltage and frequency of what
it generates very accurately. The SMPS won't give a damn.


You don't know that. For all you know, the output might be covered in crap
like ignition noise. In which case, a lot of switchers will fail sooner or
later. I don't know what your background is - I've never seen you on S.E.R.
before so I guess you're here as a result of the cross-posting. For all I
know, you might be the best SMPS designer in the world, and your efforts
might be bomb-proof. But for every one of you, there are a thousand Chinese
sticking their ****-street designs in everything from light bulbs to vacuum
cleaners. I see this crap every day (as well as some good ones) and many of
the designs do, as I said, work by the skin of their teeth. If you throw
mains at them that's covered in spikes and other garbage, they *will* fail.
It's not at all rare to see items such as TV sets that have been used on the
end of cheap inverters and generators, with either blown power supplies, or
corrupted EEPROMs.

I would also point out that many cheap Chinese designs without a PFC front
end rated to 260 volts AC, have a single main filter cap rated at 400 v.
Even with mains at the high end of 'normal', that doesn't allow a lot of
overhead. If the output of this generator is poorly regulated, the input
voltage to the power supply could easily take this cap close to its limits.
In which case such a supply may well 'give a damn'.

So to the O.P., if you want to believe this guy and ignore Aldi's warning,
go right ahead. You might get away with it if if the TV or whatever has one
of Rod's designs of PSU in it. Otherwise you may well not ...

Arfa

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:19:21 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:12*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
popular.

Surely that depends on the choice of programme?
It might be extremely popular if it's showing the women's beach
volleyball ;-)

I don't think the program matters much if the viewers need a gas mask
and ear plugs in order to watch the TV. Last time I checked, many
small LCD TV's run nicely on 12V battery power. No need for
generator. For example:
http://www.capitalstores.co.uk/12v-tv

I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
home.


in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible out in
the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD screen.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:34:33 +0100 "Arfa Daily"
wrote in Message id: :

I've never seen you on S.E.R.
before so I guess you're here as a result of the cross-posting. For all I
know, you might be the best SMPS designer in the world, and your efforts
might be bomb-proof.

Not likely. See
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-co...faq-28790.html

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:57:00 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann"
Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

** Only sometimes, in many SMPS designs the output goes high.

Yeah sorta. I could probably contrive a design that would do that.
However, I haven't seen any like that since the days of the original
Compaq portable, which did have such a PS. I've seen a fair number of
computah power supplies in the last 30+ years. Very few that I've
seen fails to full output voltage.

However, there are exceptions:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/atx-blown.jpg
I think this one failed to full output voltage. It was in a no name
PC. No evidence of lighting or power mains problems. It simply blew
up. Proof positive that it is possible to design a lousy switcher.

If that is on a 5V rail, it destroys most of the ICs.

Yep. Oddly, I haven't seen many such motherboards with all the IC's
blown. Plenty of other failure modes, but no volcanic eruptions in
the middle of chips. That's what full power over-voltage does. It
blows out a small piece of the epoxy-B package.

Very few have a "crowbar" to stop it .

None of the schematics that I've seen have such a feature. Most of
them rely on a "power good" circuit inside the regulator chip to
provide the necessary protection. That's not as good as an external
crowbar, but then, I don't think any PC power supply manufacturers are
going to add 30Amp SCR's for protection.

ATX power supply specification.
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf
See Section 3.4 for the multitude of output protection circuitry
required. Output faults are suppose to shutdown and latch.

Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.

** Unregulated ones do no such thing.

True, but nobody runs unregulated power supplies these days. By
analog, I meant linear power supplies with analog (non-switching mode)
regulators.

In ham radio, the RF noise produced by switchers makes weak signal
work rather difficult. Most ham radio power supplies use fairly
simple linear power supply designs. The leading company is Astron:
http://www.astroncorp.com
Schematics can be found at:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-index.html
Note that *ALL* of the linear power supplies have an SCR crowbar
across the output. The slightest hint of overvoltage, and it will
shut down and latch the regulator. This is rather irritating when the
power supply is located at a mountain top radio site. Various reset
circuits have been contrived. For example:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-ovpr-12.html

I don't know which flavor will best survive a crappy generator. I've
seen switchers run on a much wider range of voltages and fequencies
than linear power supplies. However, during ham radio Field Day, it
seems that the switchers are the ones that are most susceptible to
protective shutdown from generator spikes and transcients. Most of
the power supplies running during last months Field Day were linear,
to keep the RFI down, except for the switchers used to charge the
laptop batteries.

The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

** Just like SMPS do then, but far less commonly.

Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.

I like switchers.

** But you are an utter ass.

Of course. But I'm still right.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:39:16 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:
I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
home.

in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible out in
the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD screen.

You're behind the times a little. These daze, campers have satellite
receivers and dishes. OTA TV reception in the middle of nowhere tends
to be lousy.

The main purpose of the generator is not to run the TV. It's to keep
the 12V fridge alive. The generator usually has a 12v charger output,
which keeps the battery up, which runs the 12v fridge. For those with
really cheap generators, add an external battery charger. Few campers
have 12v chargers for their laptops, so there's another reason to run
the generator. Solar panels as chargers are also common, but are
rarely large enough to replace a generator.

It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping. When I last
did that, we went past a "wilderness" trailer camp, which is
distinguished from a regular trailer camp site by the lack of hookups.
We could hear the multiple generators running for miles away. As we
approached the trailer camp site, we could hear a cacophany of full
blast television audio from some campers. We begged some supplies,
loaded up with drinkable water, and got as far away from that
nightmare as possible, which was not a trivial exercise in the dark.

Leave the generator and TV at home.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 01:28:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:21:51 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

Or to Vin.

Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

So do boost regulators, not that it's necessarily a bad thing.

I like switchers.

I have no preference. There is rarely a choice (I guess if there is it's an
automatic "choice" for the linear - so no real choice).

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping.


The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
Cold weather survival training. You were issued a 'tent half' (basicly,
a small canvas tarp) , sleeping bag & folding shovel. You had to find a
suitable spot to anchor the 'tent half' where the wild wouldn't blow in
the opening, then bury all butthe entrance in snow for insulation. The
temperature was below -20F during the day, and we were there for three
days. Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
ice covered trees without an axe?

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
Cold weather survival training.

Camping these days for me is done in 2-3 star hotels (i.e. Motel 6). I
can't afford 5 star.

I did something like that, except in the desert. I wasn't paying
attention, forgot to do a few things, and ended up dehydrated, with a
major sunburn, and infested with sand fleas.

Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
ice covered trees without an axe?

Not frozen, but certainly wet wood. I've been heating my house during
the winter with firewood for 39 years. At one point, I was cursed
with some soaking wet green firewood. Even mixed with dry wood it
didn't burn very well. It was better than freezing, so I eventually
learned how to start a fire with the stuff with a propane torch. I
also used an axe, hatchet, chain saw, bow saw, and table saw to
prepare the logs and kindling.

I've converted small trees into kindling by driving over them with a
bulldozer, but I suspect that's not what you were doing. How did you
prepare firewood from iced over trees? Cable saw? Swiss army knife?
Explosives? I would have just scrounged for dead fall branches on the
ground and left the wet live trees alone.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:39:16 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
m:
I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
home.

in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible
out in the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD
screen.

You're behind the times a little. These daze, campers have satellite
receivers and dishes. OTA TV reception in the middle of nowhere tends
to be lousy.

yeah,I've seen RVs with satellite dishes...

The main purpose of the generator is not to run the TV. It's to keep
the 12V fridge alive. The generator usually has a 12v charger output,
which keeps the battery up, which runs the 12v fridge. For those with
really cheap generators, add an external battery charger. Few campers
have 12v chargers for their laptops, so there's another reason to run
the generator. Solar panels as chargers are also common, but are
rarely large enough to replace a generator.

It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping. When I last
did that, we went past a "wilderness" trailer camp, which is
distinguished from a regular trailer camp site by the lack of hookups.
We could hear the multiple generators running for miles away. As we
approached the trailer camp site, we could hear a cacophany of full
blast television audio from some campers. We begged some supplies,
loaded up with drinkable water, and got as far away from that
nightmare as possible, which was not a trivial exercise in the dark.

Leave the generator and TV at home.


will an 800 WATT generator keep a fridge going?
an 800 watt generator might not run the TV and the satellite
receiver[humor]....considering that 800 watts is maximum output(surge?),and
you can realistically expect only 400 watts from it,continuous.

I agree that TV,stereo,etc,is inappropriate for camping.
Camping is about ESCAPING all that stuff,enjoying nature,bugs and all.
Laptops on a camping trip? sheesh,why not just pitch a tent in your
backyard?
then you can run an extension cord from your house to run all your stuff.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:57:00 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann"
Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

** Only sometimes, in many SMPS designs the output goes high.

Yeah sorta. I could probably contrive a design that would do that.
However, I haven't seen any like that since the days of the original
Compaq portable, which did have such a PS. I've seen a fair number of
computah power supplies in the last 30+ years. Very few that I've
seen fails to full output voltage.

However, there are exceptions:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/atx-blown.jpg
I think this one failed to full output voltage. It was in a no name
PC. No evidence of lighting or power mains problems. It simply blew
up. Proof positive that it is possible to design a lousy switcher.

If that is on a 5V rail, it destroys most of the ICs.

Yep. Oddly, I haven't seen many such motherboards with all the IC's
blown. Plenty of other failure modes, but no volcanic eruptions in
the middle of chips. That's what full power over-voltage does. It
blows out a small piece of the epoxy-B package.

Very few have a "crowbar" to stop it .

None of the schematics that I've seen have such a feature. Most of
them rely on a "power good" circuit inside the regulator chip to
provide the necessary protection. That's not as good as an external
crowbar, but then, I don't think any PC power supply manufacturers are
going to add 30Amp SCR's for protection.

ATX power supply specification.
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf
See Section 3.4 for the multitude of output protection circuitry
required. Output faults are suppose to shutdown and latch.

Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.

** Unregulated ones do no such thing.

True, but nobody runs unregulated power supplies these days. By
analog, I meant linear power supplies with analog (non-switching mode)
regulators.

In ham radio, the RF noise produced by switchers makes weak signal
work rather difficult. Most ham radio power supplies use fairly
simple linear power supply designs. The leading company is Astron:
http://www.astroncorp.com
Schematics can be found at:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-index.html
Note that *ALL* of the linear power supplies have an SCR crowbar
across the output. The slightest hint of overvoltage, and it will
shut down and latch the regulator. This is rather irritating when the
power supply is located at a mountain top radio site. Various reset
circuits have been contrived. For example:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-ovpr-12.html

I don't know which flavor will best survive a crappy generator. I've
seen switchers run on a much wider range of voltages and fequencies
than linear power supplies. However, during ham radio Field Day, it
seems that the switchers are the ones that are most susceptible to
protective shutdown from generator spikes and transcients. Most of
the power supplies running during last months Field Day were linear,
to keep the RFI down, except for the switchers used to charge the
laptop batteries.

The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

** Just like SMPS do then, but far less commonly.

Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.

I like switchers.

** But you are an utter ass.

Of course. But I'm still right.



the TEK 1710,20,30 professional TV waveform monitors SMPS would commonly
fail high,and burn a hole in the PCB under the HV OSC xstr in the process.
they regulate off the +5,but the +5 main filter cap would go high in
ESR,the PS would drive harder to keep up,the +40unreg for the HV osc would
go to 60v,and the osc xstr would overdissipate and char the PCB.
Eventually,the PS would go into current limit,or fail to start.the PCB was
usually conductive under the osc xstr.

TEK had bunches of problems with caps in their TV products,I'd replace them
by the handfuls. I finally got myself a Dick Smith ESR meter...on my own
dime.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
Cold weather survival training.

Camping these days for me is done in 2-3 star hotels (i.e. Motel 6). I
can't afford 5 star.

I did something like that, except in the desert. I wasn't paying
attention, forgot to do a few things, and ended up dehydrated, with a
major sunburn, and infested with sand fleas.

Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
ice covered trees without an axe?

Not frozen, but certainly wet wood. I've been heating my house during
the winter with firewood for 39 years. At one point, I was cursed
with some soaking wet green firewood. Even mixed with dry wood it
didn't burn very well. It was better than freezing, so I eventually
learned how to start a fire with the stuff with a propane torch. I
also used an axe, hatchet, chain saw, bow saw, and table saw to
prepare the logs and kindling.

I've converted small trees into kindling by driving over them with a
bulldozer, but I suspect that's not what you were doing. How did you
prepare firewood from iced over trees? Cable saw? Swiss army knife?
Explosives? I would have just scrounged for dead fall branches on the
ground and left the wet live trees alone.


When I was a kid,I read an old Argosy magazine(outdoorsman stuff) about how
the author would camp in wintertime in his shirtsleeves,no special cold
weather gear. He'd make a bed out of pine branches stripped from trees and
lay on that,it insulated him from the cold ground. So after Xmas,I got a
couple of discarded Xmas trees,stripped them,made a bed several inches
thick,and camped out in the backyard. It worked. All I had was a thin
sleeping bag,and a canvas leanto for cover. Wasn't cold at all,despite a
foot of snow in the yard.

BTW,pine cones light pretty easily,they're full of resins and turps,good
for starting fires. They burn hot.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

David WE Roberts wrote:


"D. T. Green" wrote in message
...

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
running very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ?
(Only £59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would
buying something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
generator with a portable television?



Some of the extra money paind for more expensive generators goes towards
the extra electronics which ensure a stable a/c output similar to mains
current. This is generaly described as an inverter system

Believe the instructions.
It is not suitable.

There are warnings against these very cheap generators on caravan and
mobile home discussion fora, as they can damage the internal electrics
of the more sophisticated systems.

Cheers

Dave R
If you want my honest opinion, I wouldn't use any crap devices that
couldn't handle a noisy or shaky power line.. Do you really think the
commercial power is a 100% ?

If the device can't handle a little frequency and voltage variation
with a little noise on it, then the device was designed as a cheap, get
it out the door garbage money maker.

P.S.

I have the 2000 Watt Peak generator that Aldi's has or did have. Yes
, it is a little noisy however, frequency only varies +/- 3 Hz from what
I could see and voltage was with in reason under load changes..

The wave form on it looked almost as good as my 5000 watt Honda
generator..

So putting that into prospective, I guess if you think the Aldi
generate is crap, maybe I shouldn't use my Honda either!


jamie