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Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
... How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa Not an expert here, but individual states regulate electric rates through rate commissions. Usually rate increases go through without too much problem - the companies just ask for more knowing they will get somewhat less. There are some incentives here and there, but no, you can't get pricing based on any competition. Not aware of tariffs as such. Producers in one state can and do sell to other states to the detriment of local customers. For example, California buys a lot of electricity from Arizona. Mark Z. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote: How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa That depends on where you live. In Memphis, Tennessee, the city handles water (including sewer), gas, and electricity. In other areas, you may have a different supplier for each. Various pats of the state of Georgia get electricity from Georgia Power Company, others from a number of smaller companies and membership co-ops. Rates for various electricity providers in Georgia are he http://www.psc.state.ga.us/electric/...identialrs.asp Natural gas is provided by numerous suppliers. Some have small service aeas, others serve large numbers of customers. Priceing charts are he http://www.psc.state.ga.us/gas/pricecard.asp Other states typically have some type of public service board or commission that regulates the utilities in the state. Those regulating officials usually publish some type of pricing information about the providers in the state. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
"Arfa Daily trolling as Usual " Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? ** Makes things simpler having one supplier. What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? ** Rates cannot change in the short term unless premises have high tech energy meters. Most here still have old style, analogue meters with mechanical dials. Gas is 2.5 cents per megajoule and electricity is 21 cents per kWh. A kWh = 3.6 megajoules. ..... Phil |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 6, 7:52*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa 50 years ago in New Jersey we had an off-peak hot water heater on a separate meter.. Trouble was that there was an ordinary clock inside the meter that was used to tell the time of day and set the off-peak timing.. It was wrong from the day we moved in due to numerous power failures, and frequently we got our hot water heated during peak hours. Apparently they did not trust the meter readers to take of the meter seal and reset the internal clock, because in 5 years it was never reset by the power company. Where I live now in suburban Chicago - Naperville, we are getting smart meters. But there is a group of about 10% of the residents who are opposed to the meters. Either they fear the radiation from the meters - electrophobia - or they don't want the government to know they are using many kilowatts of power at 3 am for their marijuana plants grow lamps in their basementsg. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? That sounds similar to a question that was once posed to me by someone in Malta: "What's the weather like in the U.S.?" Malta being smaller that a number of U.S. _cities_, and Great Britain being smaller than most of the U.S. states. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
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Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
I am a BIG anti establishmentist and as such I would love to steal ANY
utility I can. Personally, you can trust me with your life, but if you got an "inc." you better keep your eyes open. I remember a Father/son project (not me). They ran an electric whole house furnace on high through a rectifier to try to magnetize the poles inside the mechanical meter. Those things are on the way out. We also discussed that guy who layed long lines on his own property parallel to the over head high tension wires. The government's contention was that the power he used showed up on a meter somewhere, but if you know transformer theory you know that is not true. For example power flows through a wire more efficiently in conduit because it quenches part of the magnetic field generated. Of course this is miniscule, but still true. Well that wire on the ground was actuing as the secondary of a transformer, as such when current was pulled from that wire, it increased the efficiency of the power company's transmission wire. The point of law was not that someone else was paying for it, the problem was that he wasn't. Plain and simple. You know in some states it is now illegal to collect rainwater on your own property here in the land of the fee and the home of the slave. It is certainly illegal to collect electromagnetic energy. I think the people who made it that way should be boiled in oil for higher treason, but that is beyond the scope of this thread of course. Anyway, many years ago one power company came out with peak load meters. It had the wheel and the dials, but it also had an ammeter. The ammeter had a peak recorder, mechanical of course. It had two needles that indicated usage. One went up and down, the other went up and did not come down. When the meter reader came he had a key that would reset the one needle. He recorded that peak reading and the higher the needle was stuck on the scale, the more you paid per unit, ALL MONTH. Mechanical meters are on their way out. They just changed them on my house. Now I am sure that I could flip one upside down, but being digital I am almost positive that it can detect that. Whether it has a way to report that I do not know. But the event would certainly be recorded in the meter. Maybe there will be a rash of "meter thefts". If an engineer designed a KWH meter without this capability they would certainly be fired. If I were the power company I would fire them. Really though, on an old mechanical meter, remember that you can sell power back, at least in theory. In fact some people do, although there is a push now for the government to say it literally owns the sunshine that falls on your property here. If you do sell it back, the meter I think has to run backward, but there is still power on their side. In case of a power outage, if you sell back ALOT of power and they come and don't see any solar or wind devices, they are going to want to know where that power came from. What do you say, even if you did get away with flipping the meter ? Generally, the best you can do is generate enough, more thasn enough for yourself and have NO usage whatsoever. In fact at Pearl and Fulton you can rent a business storefront with free electricity, because it is in fron of a boneyard that has a windmill. I bet though, that if I wanted to start a foundry and machine shop there, the rent would be a bit higher. They got you coming and going. Soon, in this country they are going to require a license just to recieve money. Mark my words. And do not start that tinfoil ****, I can back all this up. J |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote: How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. By the kw-hr. Rates vary by time of day, state, season, type of service (residential, industrial, and commercial) and regulatory gouging. There are local government owned utilizes (such as Los Angeles Dept of Water and Power), independent investor owned utilities (such as PG&E and Cal Edison), and power cooperatives, which buy bulk kw-hrs, and resell the power to its members. To keep it all looking sane, the federal government produces reports on the cost of power that is intended to remind the power consumers of their position in life. http://www.eia.gov http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/ The May 2012 report. Note that the cost per kw-hr seems to be missing: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/pdf/epm.pdf However, the new and improved data browser has it: http://www.eia.gov/beta/enerdat/#/topic/7?agg=0,1&geo=g&endsec=vg&freq=M&start=200101&end= 201203&charted=1 Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? In general, it's the same price all day. The exception are a few large industrial plants and commercial buildings that have time-of-use billing. The basic idea is to reduce energy use during peaks. http://home.howstuffworks.com/timeofuse-electricity-rates.htm And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? With normal billing, it's fairly simple. Consumer electricity is divided into tiers. The low usage tiers are fairly economical. However, if usage increases to tier 5, it can get really expensive. The regular billing schedule: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResElecCurrent.xls The Time-of-Use version: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls And who do you buy it from ? Usually, it's from the local regulated monopoly. In my area, it's PG&E. However, you can buy from a wide variety of independents. The electricity is delivered by PG&E, produced by some alternative producer, and is billed through some other entity. This usually costs more than PG&E, but allegedly gives the consumer that warm fuzzy feeling from buying clean energy from an ecologically correct vendor. http://www.calpine.com Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? In general, local. However, many producers are large enough that they server half of the state. Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? No confusion here. The state divides up the pie according to which electricity producer and operator can do the best job for the state. A few years ago, they stupidly demanded that the major delivery and billing companies, divest themselves of all of their production facilities. It was suppose to result in lower prices, but instead managed to raise them. It's not as neat as I would like, but it works. What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? It varies too much by tier and season to offer a single value. See: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResElecCurrent.xls Somewhere between $0.11 to $0.34/kw-hr. Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in
: How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa in central Florida,Progress Energy,I have a standard KWH rate,and then a higher rate for consumption over 1000 KWH. I never get anywhere near that. I have no choice as to what utility provides my electricity,it's a monopoly. there's also a fuel charge,for the first 1000 KWH,and an increased rate for every 1000 KWH over that. energy charge= 6.275c/KWH 1st 1000 KWH. 7.366c/KWH over 1000 KWH fuel charge= 4.86c/KWH 5.86c/KWH over 1000 KWH. then there's the taxes and special fees for this and that. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On 6/7/2012 9:21 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa wrote in : How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ? Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ? Arfa in central Florida,Progress Energy,I have a standard KWH rate,and then a higher rate for consumption over 1000 KWH. I never get anywhere near that. I have no choice as to what utility provides my electricity,it's a monopoly. there's also a fuel charge,for the first 1000 KWH,and an increased rate for every 1000 KWH over that. energy charge= 6.275c/KWH 1st 1000 KWH. 7.366c/KWH over 1000 KWH fuel charge= 4.86c/KWH 5.86c/KWH over 1000 KWH. then there's the taxes and special fees for this and that. Similar situation here. We have an energy cost and a delivery cost plus baseline fees/taxes. Gives 'em more ways to raise rates. We also have the option to pay MORE for green energy. Near as I can tell, they put your payment in the green bucket long enough to get some energy tax incentives and a photo-op, then the excess sloshes out into the executive bonus bucket. We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 7, 1:10*pm, mike wrote:
We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 7, 3:36*pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10*pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
"hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the UK. Take a look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back, it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them. Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are billed or the way you pay, can affect it. For instance, go take a look at http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ds/p/nn8%204pg and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S. Arfa |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 7, 9:25*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys.. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the UK. Take a look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ and see the small dial at the top right area. *Not so many years back, it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them. Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on.. I actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are billed or the way you pay, can affect it. For instance, go take a look at http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...-East%20Midlan... and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the U.S. *Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S. Arfa Here in New Hampshire we now have a "choice" who we get our power from. However you would be hard pressed to find any significant savings from any of them. The power company offers residential rate and Business rate. These are set by the PUC, (Public Utilities Commission) who as far as I can tell is in the pockets of all the utilities. It's fairly obvious that the business rate is just a license to screw you even harder. (This goes for telephone service as well. But don't get me started on that). And in addition if the power company feels that your residence is operating on a business level you are surcharged for that too. For example if you own a factory you have the business rate. And you start up a large motor that has a large starting current, you are assessed a "demand" charge. This is a surcharge on top of your normal rate for, (and this is how it was explained to me) for the power company's "ability" to meet your immediate "demand". What a load o bull****! I have a friend who owns a horse farm. This is a hobby and definitely his residence. His barn is far removed from the house and so there is a very large pump that brings water to the barn. When this water pump comes on there is a momentary large starting current. Somehow they have seen fit, (and have gotten away with it) to levy the demand charge on him, a residential customer too. Several years ago they built Seabrook Station, New Hampshire's first nuclear power plant. We were assured of cheap efficient electricity for years to come. Well guess what? The rates have steadily gone up since it went on line, with no end in sight. And with all the itemized charges for this and that on your bill now it's virtually impossible to make any sense out of it anymore. So like another tax that can't be avoided, we just pay it. So now they're talking about running a transmission line down from Canada. There is apparently cheap hydro up there, (Niagra Falls), and once again they say we can really save some money with the completion of this project. I have no doubts that the only ones who will benefit from this fiasco will be the investor. The rate payers will continue to be "raped". I guess that the alternative is to just go right back to friggin 1840 and live like an Amish farmer. As ****ed off as I am though I'm not ready to take it to that extreme, yet. Lenny |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in
: "hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the UK. Take a look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back, it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them. Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are billed or the way you pay, can affect it. For instance, go take a look at http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands /p/nn8%204pg and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S. Arfa I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote : "hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the UK. Take a look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ and see the small dial at the top right area. *Not so many years back, it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them. Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are billed or the way you pay, can affect it. For instance, go take a look at http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands /p/nn8%204pg and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the U.S. *Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S. Arfa I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote : "hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within 30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top of the dunes. One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they take a while to deliver power in phase. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On 6/8/2012 6:19 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa wrote in : "hr(bob) wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the UK. Take a look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back, it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them. Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are billed or the way you pay, can affect it. For instance, go take a look at http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands /p/nn8%204pg and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S. Arfa I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. Some of the renewable energy sources are use-it-or-lose-it. Solar, wind, tidal... Efficiency of the storage is less important when the alternative is zero. |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
wrote: On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote: "Arfa Daily" wrote : "hr(bob) " wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within 30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top of the dunes. One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they take a while to deliver power in phase. Good so far. From what i have read it is not too difficult to store several hundred acre-feet of water elevated by several hundred feet in some locations. The mechanical efficiency of storing energy this way runs in the vicinity of 85 percent. You easily get mgh energy storage from these figures. ?-) |
Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...
On Jun 8, 9:29*pm, josephkk wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote: "Arfa Daily" wrote : "hr(bob) " wrote in message .... On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote: On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote: We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak. I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM. The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of use. Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate. You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking. EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket. And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that wind farm or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate the need for that new energy source. Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.) All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.. Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage." During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric turbines as it went. Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's still in use in some parts of Colorado. I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement; how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored? you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it. the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect. Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within 30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top of the dunes. One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they take a while to deliver power in phase. Good so far. *From what i have read it is not too difficult to store several hundred acre-feet of water elevated by several hundred feet in some locations. *The mechanical efficiency of storing energy this way runs in the vicinity of 85 percent. *You easily get mgh energy storage from these figures. ?-) I wasn't talking about pumping water to store it. This water is just for the horses. Lenny |
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