CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a
view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Sylvia Else wrote:
Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. If you're referring to the inverter supply? I think those caps are already of low ESR types. If not, they should be. Jamie |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
The low brighness when cold is not due to low PS voltages or current,
it is due to the fact that it takes time for the gas to get it up completely. It may be possible to overshoot the target current/power when first started to accelerate the process but this is very likely to decrease the overall life of the CFLs. Newr units do seem to perform better in that respect, but short of replacing things with newer versions I think you will just have to be patient. J |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On Sep 19, 6:00*pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? I don't think capacitors are the reason for the brightness change because even many brand-new CFLs take time to reach full brightness, especially when in the cold (even 75F). More likely, the circuitry just doesn't compensate for the temperature of the fluorescent tube. For example, here's the circuit board from the base of a failed Maxlife brand CFL. The fluorescent tube connects at F1, F2, F3, and F4, and notice on the far right is a space for a thermistor (PTC) that connects between F1 and F4 on the other side, through a capacitor, C8, that's also missing. The circuit board was built so it shorts across C8. The big capacitor in the middle is rated 22uF, 200V, and Aishi is considered a junk brand. Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. .. http://imageshack.us/f/62/cflinside.jpg/ |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Sylvia Else wrote:
Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature). Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-350...p-12-14v-80310 It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Jamie" = Maynard A. Philbrook, radio ham KA1LPH and total ****wit If you're referring to the inverter supply? I think those caps are already of low ESR types. If not, they should be. ** Wot absurd craplogy. ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Stupider than Anyone Else on Earth " Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? ** There are no fairies left at the bottom of this mad bitch's garden. They all vacated decades ago in acute embarrassment. ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"larry moe 'n curly" Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. ** Most CFLs use no glue at all, the halves snap fit together. Silicone adhesive ( eg Silastic) will handle the case temp easily - can be used to secure loose glass tubes in the case too. ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On 20/09/2011 1:11 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature). Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-350...p-12-14v-80310 It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature. Having got used to the higher colour temperatures of CFLs, I find that I prefer them. Incandescents weren't given a lower colour temperature because people preferred them, it was just the way they came out. If the first practical domestic electric lights had been of daylight colour temperature, I imagine that's what everyone would always have wanted, and people would have given short shrift to this yellow rubbish. However, I note that the led emitter strips are available in higher colour temperatures. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On Sep 20, 3:51*am, "larry moe 'n curly"
wrote: On Sep 19, 6:00*pm, Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? I don't think capacitors are the reason for the brightness change because even many brand-new CFLs take time to reach full brightness, especially when in the cold (even 75F). *More likely, the circuitry just doesn't compensate for the temperature of the fluorescent tube. For example, here's the circuit board from the base of a failed Maxlife brand CFL. *The fluorescent tube connects at F1, F2, F3, and F4, and notice on the far right is a space for a thermistor (PTC) that connects between F1 and F4 on the other side, through a capacitor, C8, that's also missing. *The circuit board was built so it shorts across C8. The big capacitor in the middle is rated 22uF, 200V, and Aishi is considered a junk brand. Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. . * * * * * *http://imageshack.us/f/62/cflinside.jpg/ Can those who have opened them up tell us how best to do it and what usually dies? I am amassing a collection of duds that didn't reach anywhere near their promised lifetime (especially the more expensive higher wattage ones) and I'm idly curious as to what use could be made of them. From Larry's photo, there's quite a bit of electronics in there, (which incidentally makes one wonder whether their lifetime energy saving is really as high as is claimed, but that's another matter). Chris |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On 20/09/2011 10:00 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Stupider than Anyone Else on Earth" Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? ** There are no fairies left at the bottom of this mad bitch's garden. They all vacated decades ago in acute embarrassment. ..... Phil What ever you think of the question (stupid, incomplete, a waste of time etc), she did NOT ask you. A question is not an excuse for you to insult anyone. If you don't like it don't answer |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
I also favor the light temperature of the daylight or sunlight CF lamps,
which are typically over 6000K. My eyes adapt to the light very well, although I rarely use direct lighting.. most of my CFLs are pointed upward for bounce lighting. The majority of incandescents give off a red light, and I've read that up to 90% of the output from incancescent lights is in the infrared region. For folks that experience cold weather for half of the year, the infrared adds to their comfort. This is easily seen when using film photography as the color levels aren't natural, but shifted so far that a blue filter is needed to achieve natural colors. Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. I strongly suspect that widespread use of LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment that using incandescents. The environutz are easily mislead. I believe that the manufacture of LED lighting will use more energy and create more pollutants than glass lamps ever did. The plastics and various compounds used for component manufacturing will result in more irreversible air and water contamination. The extra slap in the face comes with the excessive plastic packaging the CFLs are usually sold in.. when old glass lamps were generally packaged in easily recycled paper products (even as litter, the paper breaks down to something useful). In addition to increased energy usage, the waste issue of CFLs and LED lights presents more pollutants than a simple glass lamp ever did. The LED lamps aren't going to last for an average of 10 years, not when they'll be manufactured in China/India/etc by the lowest bidder, and using lead-free solder and the cheapest components available. The marketing hype and lip service are BS, as they generally always are. The data is generally never presented in real-world terms, and there won't be any significant data presented, such as the conversion of Las Vegas to LED lighting. The LED lamps that I've seen at stores won't fit in most common existing lighting fixtures, and have a price of $30-40US. This will be a huge unnecessary expense to an average homeowner due to a ban on incandescents. -- Cheers, WB .............. "Sylvia Else" wrote in message ... Having got used to the higher colour temperatures of CFLs, I find that I prefer them. Incandescents weren't given a lower colour temperature because people preferred them, it was just the way they came out. If the first practical domestic electric lights had been of daylight colour temperature, I imagine that's what everyone would always have wanted, and people would have given short shrift to this yellow rubbish. However, I note that the led emitter strips are available in higher colour temperatures. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Phil Allison wrote: "larry moe 'n curly" Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. ** Most CFLs use no glue at all, the halves snap fit together. Silicone adhesive ( eg Silastic) will handle the case temp easily - can be used to secure loose glass tubes in the case too. The only ones I've tried opening are old large MaxLite (in the photo) and 5-year-old 14W Commercial Electric (now Home Depot's brand), and both were glued. I opened them by carefully sawing around the perimeter. I ended up using a fine-tooth coping saw because my Dremel abrasive cutoff wheel gummed up with plastic. If the CFLs are snapped together, how do we unsnap them? I know silicone rubber glue can take the heat, but is it strong enough? I worry about it coming loose when somebody screws in the bulb, causing the bulb wires (magnet wire - only enamel insulation) to short. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Trevor Wilson wrote: **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. So why do some CFLs keep the brightness more constant than others? Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: Aren't LEDs also temperature sensitive? Because I had a hot chassis TV with optical couplers for the composite video and audio, and the picture brightness & contrast would change slightly when it warmed up. There were also pots to adjust the couplers. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Wild_Bill wrote:
I also favor the light temperature of the daylight or sunlight CF lamps, which are typically over 6000K. My eyes adapt to the light very well, although I rarely use direct lighting.. most of my CFLs are pointed upward for bounce lighting. The majority of incandescents give off a red light, and I've read that up to 90% of the output from incancescent lights is in the infrared region. **95% ~ 98% is far closer to reality. Halogens are somewhat more efficient. For folks that experience cold weather for half of the year, the infrared adds to their comfort. **So do heat pumps, which are vastly more efficient. This is easily seen when using film photography as the color levels aren't natural, but shifted so far that a blue filter is needed to achieve natural colors. Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. I strongly suspect that widespread use of LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment that using incandescents. The environutz are easily mislead. **As are you. Provide your proof that LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment. I believe that the manufacture of LED lighting will use more energy and create more pollutants than glass lamps ever did. **You "believe" it, do you? Got some proof? In your proof, you may consider the following: * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon. * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon * LEDs can easily last 100 times longer than incandescent lamps. * LEDs are at least 10 times more efficient than incandescents (and around 5 ~ 6 times more efficient than halogens). The plastics and various compounds used for component manufacturing will result in more irreversible air and water contamination. **Really? Are you trying to suggest that it is impossible to deal with the pollution caused by the manufacture of semiconductors? Curious. The extra slap in the face comes with the excessive plastic packaging the CFLs are usually sold in. **Huh? You talking about CFLs or LEDs? Either way, the last CFLs and LED downlights I purchased were packed in recycled cardboard. No plastic in sight. .. when old glass lamps were generally packaged in easily recycled paper products (even as litter, the paper breaks down to something useful). **Curiously enough, the last incandescent I purchased (a halogen) was packed in a cardboard/plastic material. Far less enviroinmentally sensitive than the LEDs and CFLs I bought. In addition to increased energy usage, the waste issue of CFLs and LED lights presents more pollutants than a simple glass lamp ever did. **Really? What are the waste products you speak of? Have you factored in the extremely long life of CFLs and LEDs? (I have 19 CFLs in my home, 1 incandescent and a dozen halogens). In six years, I've replaced the incandescent 2 times (VERY rarely used). I've replaced 10 halogens (rarely used) and, except for two dropped CFLs, none have been replaced, despite being used for upwards of 6 hours per day. The LED lamps aren't going to last for an average of 10 years, **I'm still using some first generation white LEDs. They're left on 24/7 and have been for more than 10 years. The latest ones are brighter and should last much longer. not when they'll be manufactured in China/India/etc by the lowest bidder, and using lead-free solder and the cheapest components available. The marketing hype and lip service are BS, as they generally always are. **YOU have no clue. None whatsoever. The data is generally never presented in real-world terms, and there won't be any significant data presented, such as the conversion of Las Vegas to LED lighting. The LED lamps that I've seen at stores won't fit in most common existing lighting fixtures, and have a price of $30-40US. This will be a huge unnecessary expense to an average homeowner due to a ban on incandescents. **More ********. LED lighting is rapidly falling in cost. VERY rapidly indeed. CFLs were expensive a few years back and now they cost barely more than incandescents. They last many times longer and use far less energy. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote: **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. So why do some CFLs keep the brightness more constant than others? **I can't answer that question. All the ones I use are fine. Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: Aren't LEDs also temperature sensitive? **In the same sense that all semiconductors are, yes. Any decent LED lighting manufacturer will take care of cooling. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On Sep 21, 1:39*am,
wrote: On Sep 20, 3:51*am, "larry moe 'n curly" wrote: On Sep 19, 6:00*pm, Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? I don't think capacitors are the reason for the brightness change because even many brand-new CFLs take time to reach full brightness, especially when in the cold (even 75F). *More likely, the circuitry just doesn't compensate for the temperature of the fluorescent tube. For example, here's the circuit board from the base of a failed Maxlife brand CFL. *The fluorescent tube connects at F1, F2, F3, and F4, and notice on the far right is a space for a thermistor (PTC) that connects between F1 and F4 on the other side, through a capacitor, C8, that's also missing. *The circuit board was built so it shorts across C8. The big capacitor in the middle is rated 22uF, 200V, and Aishi is considered a junk brand. Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. . * * * * * *http://imageshack.us/f/62/cflinside.jpg/ Can those who have opened them up tell us how best to do it and what usually dies? I am amassing a collection of duds that didn't reach anywhere near their promised lifetime (especially the more expensive higher wattage ones) and I'm idly curious as to what use could be made of them. From Larry's photo, there's quite a bit of electronics in there, (which incidentally makes one wonder whether their lifetime energy saving is really as high as is claimed, but that's another matter). Chris They will happily run a normal (straight or circular) fluro without any electrical problems, and would save power compared to an ironcore ballast. If you were going to do this and fit them in a standard batten, I would replace the electrolytics with a decent name brand first as the cheap caps are unlikely to last the many, many years that a typical household batten does.. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On Sep 20, 11:00*am, Sylvia Else wrote:
Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. It would be a huge hassle to get the case apart, and back together again, and I can't see it making any difference whatsoever. All the CFL's I have here that have failed, it is always the tube that is the cause. The electronics - including the filter capacitor are always fine, so there isnt any point in replacing it even for longevity reasons. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On 21/09/2011 2:34 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. My experience has been that they're fine when new, but as they age, they take longer and longer to reach, or even approach, full brightness. I had been under the impression from previous discussion that this was attributed to the deteriorating ESR in cheap capacitors, but that view doesn't seem to be getting any support here. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"kreed"
It would be a huge hassle to get the case apart, and back together again, ** Pretty easy with most I have bought . All the CFL's I have here that have failed, it is always the tube that is the cause. The electronics - including the filter capacitor are always fine, so there isnt any point in replacing it even for longevity reasons. ** Generally, the electronics outlasts the tubes - but that is only because the tube fails so quickly, like a few hundred up to 2000 hours at most. I have a collection now of CFLs that are slow to come on, flicker or have lost 40% of their light output. The electronics will fail early if the CFL gets hot in use because it is inside a small light fitting - like an Oyster or spherical ceiling lamp. http://www.onlinelighting.com.au/ima...ter_17_5cm.jpg ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Jeff Urban" wrote in message ... The low brighness when cold is not due to low PS voltages or current, it is due to the fact that it takes time for the gas to get it up completely. It may be possible to overshoot the target current/power when first started to accelerate the process but this is very likely to decrease the overall life of the CFLs. Newr units do seem to perform better in that respect, but short of replacing things with newer versions I think you will just have to be patient. J Best thing would just be to replace the CFLs with incandescent bulbs ... :-) Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
wrote in message ... On Sep 20, 3:51 am, "larry moe 'n curly" wrote: On Sep 19, 6:00 pm, Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? I don't think capacitors are the reason for the brightness change because even many brand-new CFLs take time to reach full brightness, especially when in the cold (even 75F). More likely, the circuitry just doesn't compensate for the temperature of the fluorescent tube. For example, here's the circuit board from the base of a failed Maxlife brand CFL. The fluorescent tube connects at F1, F2, F3, and F4, and notice on the far right is a space for a thermistor (PTC) that connects between F1 and F4 on the other side, through a capacitor, C8, that's also missing. The circuit board was built so it shorts across C8. The big capacitor in the middle is rated 22uF, 200V, and Aishi is considered a junk brand. Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a strong bond that won't fail at high temperature. . http://imageshack.us/f/62/cflinside.jpg/ Can those who have opened them up tell us how best to do it and what usually dies? I am amassing a collection of duds that didn't reach anywhere near their promised lifetime (especially the more expensive higher wattage ones) and I'm idly curious as to what use could be made of them. From Larry's photo, there's quite a bit of electronics in there, (which incidentally makes one wonder whether their lifetime energy saving is really as high as is claimed, but that's another matter). Chris Best use that could be made of them is to grind 'em up and use them for hardcore for road building ... :-) Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message ... On 20/09/2011 1:11 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature). Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-350...p-12-14v-80310 It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature. Having got used to the higher colour temperatures of CFLs, I find that I prefer them. Incandescents weren't given a lower colour temperature because people preferred them, it was just the way they came out. If the first practical domestic electric lights had been of daylight colour temperature, I imagine that's what everyone would always have wanted, and people would have given short shrift to this yellow rubbish. However, I note that the led emitter strips are available in higher colour temperatures. Sylvia. I was given to understand that the colour of an incandescent bulb is what humans are comfortable with, because it closely matches the colour and spectrum of our sun. As I have said on here before, I for one, am not comfortable with the light quality from CFLs, no matter what variety or supposed colour temperature they are. I fully accept that this might be to do with my eyes or brain or whatever, and that others don't feel that they have the problem, but by the same token, I know many other people - particularly over 50's like myself - that have the same difficulty with them. Thus far, I have not been that impressed with the spectrum or light quality from LEDs in a domestic setting either, but this technology is currently moving and improving fast, so I'll keep an open mind on that at the moment. Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Wild_Bill" wrote in message ... I also favor the light temperature of the daylight or sunlight CF lamps, which are typically over 6000K. My eyes adapt to the light very well, although I rarely use direct lighting.. most of my CFLs are pointed upward for bounce lighting. The majority of incandescents give off a red light, and I've read that up to 90% of the output from incancescent lights is in the infrared region. For folks that experience cold weather for half of the year, the infrared adds to their comfort. This is easily seen when using film photography as the color levels aren't natural, but shifted so far that a blue filter is needed to achieve natural colors. Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. I strongly suspect that widespread use of LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment that using incandescents. The environutz are easily mislead. I believe that the manufacture of LED lighting will use more energy and create more pollutants than glass lamps ever did. The plastics and various compounds used for component manufacturing will result in more irreversible air and water contamination. The extra slap in the face comes with the excessive plastic packaging the CFLs are usually sold in.. when old glass lamps were generally packaged in easily recycled paper products (even as litter, the paper breaks down to something useful). In addition to increased energy usage, the waste issue of CFLs and LED lights presents more pollutants than a simple glass lamp ever did. The LED lamps aren't going to last for an average of 10 years, not when they'll be manufactured in China/India/etc by the lowest bidder, and using lead-free solder and the cheapest components available. The marketing hype and lip service are BS, as they generally always are. The data is generally never presented in real-world terms, and there won't be any significant data presented, such as the conversion of Las Vegas to LED lighting. The LED lamps that I've seen at stores won't fit in most common existing lighting fixtures, and have a price of $30-40US. This will be a huge unnecessary expense to an average homeowner due to a ban on incandescents. -- Cheers, WB I'm really not sure that I understand your point here. You seem in favour of CFLs, but against LEDs because they will have a greater environmental impact than incandescents did. Well yes. That is of course true, but the manufacturing processes involved in a CFL lamp, are still many more than in a LED lamp, with a correspondingly larger energy budget to make and ship all those parts. Further, the CFLs have a higher disposal energy budget, because they contain toxic chemicals that have to be recycled properly. Granted, LED fixtures should probably also be recycled if only to regain the materials, but at least they are not fundamentally toxic as CFLs are, and it would be no great shakes from an environmental impact point of view, if they did finish up in landfill. It's the fact that the green mist brigade only see the "less power used" angle of CFLs, and not the hugely complex and energy-thirsty manufacturing processes, that really gets up my nose. Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Arfa Daily" Best thing would just be to replace the CFLs with incandescent bulbs ... ** Incandescent bulbs have a HUGE list of advantages over CFLs - among them: 1. Full spectrum, warm colour light. 2. All examples use same, long proven technology and have near identical characteristics. 3. Full dimmable with any dimmer. 4. Very fast on and no change in light output or colour during life. 5. Resistive load = ideal power factor and no RFI. 6. Life of lamp easily extended by use of dimmers out to many thousands of hours. 7. Will operate normally in very cold and very hot environments. 8. Inherently water, steam and condensation proof. 9. No deterioration in storage, indefinite life in low use situations. 10. Fail in a safe, predictable manner with no smoke or fire hazard. 11. Multiple lamps up to rated load may be used on a circuit, CFLs require circuits to be de-rated by 90%. 12. Can be used in any light fitting without loss of life span. 13. No Mercury hazard if broken or when disposed of. 14 No pollution hazard during manufacture or disposal. 15. No loss of life span when cycled on and off often as you like. 16. Much lower purchase cost that good quality CFLs. Not one of the above is true for CFLs. There are many ordinary lighting applications that typical CFLs cannot do at all. Banning regular incandescents from sale was green lunatic madness. ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Arfa Daily" Best thing would just be to replace the CFLs with incandescent bulbs ... ** Incandescent bulbs have a HUGE list of advantages over CFLs - among them: 1. Full spectrum, warm colour light. 2. All examples use same, long proven technology and have near identical characteristics. 3. Full dimmable with any dimmer. 4. Very fast on and no change in light output or colour during life. 5. Resistive load = ideal power factor and no RFI. 6. Life of lamp easily extended by use of dimmers out to many thousands of hours. 7. Will operate normally in very cold and very hot environments. 8. Inherently water, steam and condensation proof. 9. No deterioration in storage, indefinite life in low use situations. 10. Fail in a safe, predictable manner with no smoke or fire hazard. 11. Multiple lamps up to rated load may be used on a circuit, CFLs require circuits to be de-rated by 90%. 12. Can be used in any light fitting without loss of life span. 13. No Mercury hazard if broken or when disposed of. 14 No pollution hazard during manufacture or disposal. 15. No loss of life span when cycled on and off often as you like. 16. Much lower purchase cost that good quality CFLs. Not one of the above is true for CFLs. There are many ordinary lighting applications that typical CFLs cannot do at all. Banning regular incandescents from sale was green lunatic madness. .... Phil Wahey ! That's the closest we've ever been to one another on anything on here, Phil ! Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... the following: snip * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon. * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon Whereabouts ? Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On 21/09/2011 11:14 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message ... On 20/09/2011 1:11 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full brightness quickly? Sylvia. **The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature). Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-350...p-12-14v-80310 It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature. Having got used to the higher colour temperatures of CFLs, I find that I prefer them. Incandescents weren't given a lower colour temperature because people preferred them, it was just the way they came out. If the first practical domestic electric lights had been of daylight colour temperature, I imagine that's what everyone would always have wanted, and people would have given short shrift to this yellow rubbish. However, I note that the led emitter strips are available in higher colour temperatures. Sylvia. I was given to understand that the colour of an incandescent bulb is what humans are comfortable with, because it closely matches the colour and spectrum of our sun. The sun's effective temperature (the blackbody temperature that gives approximately the same spectrum) is about 5800K, which is a lot higher than the colour temperature of an incandescent. The light from an incandescent is deficient in the blue end of the spectrum, which makes blue-coloured objects look darker than they should. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Arfa Daily" "Trevor Wilson" snip * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon. * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon Whereabouts ? ** The TW charlatan is being a real clever dick. Glass is about 23% silicon by weight. Got NOTHING to do with the very nasty polluting and carcinogenic processes involved in making silicon semiconductors. ..... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On 21/09/2011 11:39 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... the following: snip * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon. * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon Whereabouts ? In the glass. But we're never going to run out of silicon. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Sylvia Else" Arfa Daily wrote: I was given to understand that the colour of an incandescent bulb is what humans are comfortable with, because it closely matches the colour and spectrum of our sun. The sun's effective temperature (the blackbody temperature that gives approximately the same spectrum) is about 5800K, which is a lot higher than the colour temperature of an incandescent. ** Daylight has no particular colour temp. It varies from 11,000K on a overcasts day to less than 2000K at dawn and dusk. However, daylight ( like incandescent light ) has a smooth spectrum and the human eye adjusts to the varying colour temps almost perfectly. The light from an incandescent is deficient in the blue end of the spectrum, which makes blue-coloured objects look darker than they should. ** ********. .... Phil |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
I like CFLs in the high color temperatures (daylight) for the natural colors
of objects, and because I'm not bothered by the flicker of typical ceiling fixture and smaller fluorescent (long) tubes (and I've put in a half-century, too, and won't mind not being around after another one). I don't particularly like the mercury vapor issue or the far-short lifetimes of the CFLs. I haven't gotten over 2 years of service from the CFLs packaged as 5-7 year lamps.. and I believe this same hoax is being perptetuated for LEDs. It's nothing new, and the same pitch always works because hardly anyone pays attention to how effective new products actually are, as far as return on investment. The marketing hype is the same: These (product) will pay for themselves, just look at these numbers. The numbers are generally never accurate because they're based upon best case scenarios (not increasing energy costs, etc). I don't think there will be much to salvage from CFLs or LEDs in the way of recycling.. what's worth anything inside them? I did notice that the new LEDs lamps have heatsinks, so the metal might be recoverable. What kind of apparatus makes it possible to recycle the acrylic from LEDs? But without having the acrylic contaminated with gallium arsenide? Chemical stripper followed by a process to clean the acrylic? As I suspect proper recycling will most likely just mean "dumping in the ocean", what cost effective use could there be for a used circuit board populated with LEDs and a few common components? In order for something to be recyclable, there needs to be a profit associated with the recycled product. The bull**** is madness.. just sayin' -- Cheers, WB .............. "Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... I'm really not sure that I understand your point here. You seem in favour of CFLs, but against LEDs because they will have a greater environmental impact than incandescents did. Well yes. That is of course true, but the manufacturing processes involved in a CFL lamp, are still many more than in a LED lamp, with a correspondingly larger energy budget to make and ship all those parts. Further, the CFLs have a higher disposal energy budget, because they contain toxic chemicals that have to be recycled properly. Granted, LED fixtures should probably also be recycled if only to regain the materials, but at least they are not fundamentally toxic as CFLs are, and it would be no great shakes from an environmental impact point of view, if they did finish up in landfill. It's the fact that the green mist brigade only see the "less power used" angle of CFLs, and not the hugely complex and energy-thirsty manufacturing processes, that really gets up my nose. Arfa |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Just a WAG.. 240VAC line voltage compared to 120V in the US. Other than this
difference, I'll stick to my previous statement of maybe I'm just lucky.. that the ones I've been using light up quickly (but fail in less than half the time stated on the packaging.. yep, lucky). -- Cheers, WB .............. "Sylvia Else" wrote in message ... On 21/09/2011 2:34 AM, Wild_Bill wrote: Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. My experience has been that they're fine when new, but as they age, they take longer and longer to reach, or even approach, full brightness. I had been under the impression from previous discussion that this was attributed to the deteriorating ESR in cheap capacitors, but that view doesn't seem to be getting any support here. Sylvia. |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Sylvia Else wrote:
On 21/09/2011 2:34 AM, Wild_Bill wrote: Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. My experience has been that they're fine when new, but as they age, they take longer and longer to reach, or even approach, full brightness. I had been under the impression from previous discussion that this was attributed to the deteriorating ESR in cheap capacitors, but that view doesn't seem to be getting any support here. **Because it's ********. I have a lot of CFLs around the place. I use a light meter to monitor one lamp, in order to guage it's approximate life. During the Winter, it takes a long time (about 1 minute) to reach full brightness. In Summer, full brightness is reached in a few seconds. This has not altered significantly in 6 years. FWIW: The lamp is a 23 Watt Philips type. It is operated around 1.5 hours per day and there has been a 5% fall in Lux over the past 6 years. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Wild_Bill wrote:
I like CFLs in the high color temperatures (daylight) for the natural colors of objects, and because I'm not bothered by the flicker of typical ceiling fixture and smaller fluorescent (long) tubes (and I've put in a half-century, too, and won't mind not being around after another one). I don't particularly like the mercury vapor issue or the far-short lifetimes of the CFLs. I haven't gotten over 2 years of service from the CFLs packaged as 5-7 year lamps.. and I believe this same hoax is being perptetuated for LEDs. **Points: * It's not a hoax. LEDs last a very long time. White ones, not so long. I have some first generation white LEDs that are still working after a decade of 24/7 operation. Light output is around 50% of new. * I have CFLs that have been in service for around 10 years. The only two failures I've experienced were mechanical (I dropped them). * If you buy crap CFLs, you can expect poor service. I only buy premium quality CFLs. It's nothing new, and the same pitch always works because hardly anyone pays attention to how effective new products actually are, as far as return on investment. **I do. I keep track of the life of my lamps. Incandescents don't last long. CFLs last a very long time. The marketing hype is the same: These (product) will pay for themselves, just look at these numbers. The numbers are generally never accurate because they're based upon best case scenarios (not increasing energy costs, etc). I don't think there will be much to salvage from CFLs or LEDs in the way of recycling.. what's worth anything inside them? **Aluminium. Nothing else of use. Fortunately, they last a VERY long time, so they don't need to be recylced often. Incandescents are different. They use a LOT of silicon, solder and some brass (or plated steel). Hardly any is recoverable economically. And wait: It gets worse. Incandescents don't last long. I get around 100 hours from my lone incandescent and around 300 hours from hy halogens. Some of my CFLs have clocked up more than 5,000 hours and are still chugging along. I did notice that the new LEDs lamps have heatsinks, so the metal might be recoverable. **Which is a lot more than you can recover from incandescents. What kind of apparatus makes it possible to recycle the acrylic from LEDs? But without having the acrylic contaminated with gallium arsenide? Chemical stripper followed by a process to clean the acrylic? As I suspect proper recycling will most likely just mean "dumping in the ocean", what cost effective use could there be for a used circuit board populated with LEDs and a few common components? **Given the very long life-span of LEDs, you won' have to worry too much. In order for something to be recyclable, there needs to be a profit associated with the recycled product. The bull**** is madness.. just sayin' **I agree. You spin so much bull****, that it is madness. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Trevor Wilson" Incandescents are different. They use a LOT of silicon, ** FFS Trevor - get your fist off it !!!! There is no "silicon" used make an incandescent lamp - just a few grams of sand. NO comparison exists with evil semiconductor manufacture. solder and some brass (or plated steel). ** You forgot the tungsten. Kinda the most important bit. And the base contact material is the same as used for CFLs. Wot an IDIOT. ..... Phil |
OT CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Maybe you know of a heat pump that will illuminate a house, and only cost
the owner about $20 per year to purchase. Production of plastics pollutes, so does gallium arsenide, and mercury in CFLs. Were you born yesterday? Just because the pollution takes place somewhere else doesn't mean it doesn't effect all. Ubuntu. Some say that only about 1% of the water on this planet is drinkable, although there's plenty that's contaminated with toxic chemicals and disease. Many people drink and bathe in poisonous, disease polluted water, but that shouldn't concern you. Who is dying from silicon? Dealing with pollution means having the nasty **** made somewhere else.. like a poor country. Proof? Where's the proof that the incandescent light bulb you bought was packaged in plastic? For how long have incandescents been packaged in paper products.. well over 100 years. Those paper packages are broken down, but old plastics continue to pollute. You going to burn those scrap plastics to generate more power? How about in your town? Obviously you haven't seen any reports of huge artificial island-like masses in the oceans, made up of discarded plastic products/waste. The "extremely" long life of CFLs and now LEDs is a projected number. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have yet to get over 2 years of life from those "5-7 year" CFLs I've been buying for over a decade. Did you eat a lot of lead paint as a child? It was banned and lead paint was replaced it with a new latex paint.. which contained mercury. You don't mention how many of those first-generation LEDs you're using, are the only lighting in a room. Maybe you're referring to night lights, like the ones that show where walls are when you're walking around in the dark. So how many of those buggers does it take to light a room? I mean bright enough so everything can be seen. At night, so you can see the pattern in the carpet, or read a book or find a pencil dropped under a table. Like I stated before.. the new LED lamps I've seen won't fit many existing light fixtures, so get ready to spend. One way to insure that LED lighting won't be cheaper in the future is to ban other types of lighting.. apparently you delight in being gullible. -- Cheers, WB .............. "Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... Wild_Bill wrote: I also favor the light temperature of the daylight or sunlight CF lamps, which are typically over 6000K. My eyes adapt to the light very well, although I rarely use direct lighting.. most of my CFLs are pointed upward for bounce lighting. The majority of incandescents give off a red light, and I've read that up to 90% of the output from incancescent lights is in the infrared region. **95% ~ 98% is far closer to reality. Halogens are somewhat more efficient. For folks that experience cold weather for half of the year, the infrared adds to their comfort. **So do heat pumps, which are vastly more efficient. This is easily seen when using film photography as the color levels aren't natural, but shifted so far that a blue filter is needed to achieve natural colors. Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come on quickly. I strongly suspect that widespread use of LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment that using incandescents. The environutz are easily mislead. **As are you. Provide your proof that LED lighting will have a much more severe impact on the environment. I believe that the manufacture of LED lighting will use more energy and create more pollutants than glass lamps ever did. **You "believe" it, do you? Got some proof? In your proof, you may consider the following: * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon. * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon * LEDs can easily last 100 times longer than incandescent lamps. * LEDs are at least 10 times more efficient than incandescents (and around 5 ~ 6 times more efficient than halogens). The plastics and various compounds used for component manufacturing will result in more irreversible air and water contamination. **Really? Are you trying to suggest that it is impossible to deal with the pollution caused by the manufacture of semiconductors? Curious. The extra slap in the face comes with the excessive plastic packaging the CFLs are usually sold in. **Huh? You talking about CFLs or LEDs? Either way, the last CFLs and LED downlights I purchased were packed in recycled cardboard. No plastic in sight. . when old glass lamps were generally packaged in easily recycled paper products (even as litter, the paper breaks down to something useful). **Curiously enough, the last incandescent I purchased (a halogen) was packed in a cardboard/plastic material. Far less enviroinmentally sensitive than the LEDs and CFLs I bought. In addition to increased energy usage, the waste issue of CFLs and LED lights presents more pollutants than a simple glass lamp ever did. **Really? What are the waste products you speak of? Have you factored in the extremely long life of CFLs and LEDs? (I have 19 CFLs in my home, 1 incandescent and a dozen halogens). In six years, I've replaced the incandescent 2 times (VERY rarely used). I've replaced 10 halogens (rarely used) and, except for two dropped CFLs, none have been replaced, despite being used for upwards of 6 hours per day. The LED lamps aren't going to last for an average of 10 years, **I'm still using some first generation white LEDs. They're left on 24/7 and have been for more than 10 years. The latest ones are brighter and should last much longer. not when they'll be manufactured in China/India/etc by the lowest bidder, and using lead-free solder and the cheapest components available. The marketing hype and lip service are BS, as they generally always are. **YOU have no clue. None whatsoever. The data is generally never presented in real-world terms, and there won't be any significant data presented, such as the conversion of Las Vegas to LED lighting. The LED lamps that I've seen at stores won't fit in most common existing lighting fixtures, and have a price of $30-40US. This will be a huge unnecessary expense to an average homeowner due to a ban on incandescents. **More ********. LED lighting is rapidly falling in cost. VERY rapidly indeed. CFLs were expensive a few years back and now they cost barely more than incandescents. They last many times longer and use far less energy. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Perhaps the greater issue will be failure of the lead-free solder due to
internal temperatures in new designs of LED lighting which will be intended to replace a common lamps of significant wattage. Powerful LEDs also create heat, and when a lot of 'em are fit into a small package, the heat will very likely be a reason for very short life from the new technology. Combining the lead-free solder with the cheapest manufacturer that exists will probably reduce the projected (dreamed) lifetimes from 10 years to maybe 2 years. At about $30 each (and it's likely more of them will be needed to reach comfortable lighting levels), the greatest benefit these lamps will have, will be separating consumers from their money. Anyone that's been servicing consumer electronic gear in the past several decades has seen the impact that heat has on solder connections, and more recently, the widespread failures of lead-free solders. -- Cheers, WB .............. "larry moe 'n curly" wrote in message ... Aren't LEDs also temperature sensitive? Because I had a hot chassis TV with optical couplers for the composite video and audio, and the picture brightness & contrast would change slightly when it warmed up. There were also pots to adjust the couplers. |
OT CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Wild_Bill wrote:
Maybe you know of a heat pump that will illuminate a house, and only cost the owner about $20 per year to purchase. **I don't. And YOU don't know of a lamp that can heat a house (or cool one) either. Using lights to warm a home is insane. Pretty much like everything else you've posted. Production of plastics pollutes, so does gallium arsenide, and mercury in CFLs. **No one disputes that. Production of almost any manufactured item causes some kind of pollution. That is why regulators ensure that the pollution created is dealt with appropriately. Fortunately, LEDs last a VERY long time and consume small amounts of material, so total pollution remains low. Were you born yesterday? **Did the manufacturing process of computer you are presently using cause zero pollution? Are you insane? Just because the pollution takes place somewhere else doesn't mean it doesn't effect all. **I am well aware of that. I am also a supporter of organisations that attempt to minimise pollution caused by large manufacturers of many products. Are you? Ubuntu. Some say that only about 1% of the water on this planet is drinkable, although there's plenty that's contaminated with toxic chemicals and disease. Many people drink and bathe in poisonous, disease polluted water, but that shouldn't concern you. **Like I said: I contribute financially to several organisations that are active in trying to ensure that people less fortunate than I am are not subject to pollution from large companies. Do you? Who is dying from silicon? **The manufacture of glass, steel and tungsten is a very energy intensive process. Combined with the extremely short life-span of incandescent lamps and their monsterous inefficiency (Less than 5%) contributes to huge amounts of CO2. CFLs and LEDs cause far less CO2 to be emitted, both in manufacture and in operation over the life of the product. CO2 affects every human on the planet. Dealing with pollution means having the nasty **** made somewhere else.. like a poor country. **Like I said before..... Proof? Where's the proof that the incandescent light bulb you bought was packaged in plastic? **Geez! You think I keep the packaging? Get real. For how long have incandescents been packaged in paper products.. well over 100 years. Those paper packages are broken down, but old plastics continue to pollute. **Like I said befo Both the LEDs and the CFLs were packed in cardboard, whilst the incandescent was packed in cardboard and plastic. You going to burn those scrap plastics to generate more power? How about in your town? **WFT are you smoking? Obviously you haven't seen any reports of huge artificial island-like masses in the oceans, made up of discarded plastic products/waste. **Incorrect. The "extremely" long life of CFLs and now LEDs is a projected number. **No. It is a REAL number, verified by many users. Myself included. NONE of my CFLs have failed. Not one. OTOH, I've replaced many incandescents over the same period, despite the fact that they accrue VASTLY fewer hours of use. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have yet to get over 2 years of life from those "5-7 year" CFLs I've been buying for over a decade. **You're either: * Lying. * Buying cheap, crappy CFLs * Using them in enclosed fittings. Did you eat a lot of lead paint as a child? It was banned and lead paint was replaced it with a new latex paint.. which contained mercury. **Strawman. You don't mention how many of those first-generation LEDs you're using, are the only lighting in a room. Maybe you're referring to night lights, like the ones that show where walls are when you're walking around in the dark. **I'm referring to first generation white LEDs. So how many of those buggers does it take to light a room? **Irrelevant. They have lasted extremely well. I mean bright enough so everything can be seen. At night, so you can see the pattern in the carpet, or read a book or find a pencil dropped under a table. Like I stated before.. the new LED lamps I've seen won't fit many existing light fixtures, so get ready to spend. **And, on the other side of the coin, modern LEDs can be manufactured into completely new and different shapes. One way to insure that LED lighting won't be cheaper in the future is to ban other types of lighting.. apparently you delight in being gullible. **I delight in arguing with idiots like you. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
OT CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
"Trevor Wilson" **The manufacture of glass, steel and tungsten is a very energy intensive process. ** OTOH - the amounts used to make one light bulb are tiny and so use tiny amounts of energy. Combined with the extremely short life-span of incandescent lamps ** They can last 100 years in low or no use. They often outlast CFLs in actual service. and their monsterous inefficiency (Less than 5%) contributes to huge amounts of CO2. ** ********. CFLs and LEDs cause far less CO2 to be emitted, ** Per lamp, it is far MORE than an incandecsent. both in manufacture and in operation over the life of the produc. ** Absolute LIE. Each CFLs use 50 times time more energy to make, plus a large amount of poisonous chemical waste and then consume more energy too - if they last their rated life. Then they pollute the planet with Mercury and other heavy metal poisons. No such issues with incandescents. It is all a massive LIE . .... Phil |
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