Hate the things, pa schematic out there but not prea it would seem. Preamp
problem t'would seem. At switch on a pair of 47uF electros fed via 120K from
27V rail give increasing voltage that at about 8V , after 4 seconds, ends up
putting a 3 to 5V pulse on the preamp outputs , straight into the power amp,
both channels. This timed hold-off would seem deliberate, presumably muting
off, but the DC surge?.
Anyway this of course upsets the amp which then has to re-settle, otherwise
seetles in first second , but now outside its own time-off period and delays
relay turn on ,or worse , makes the relay chatter , via its DC loudspeaker
protection cct activating.
What to look for that the preamps , both channels oddly, come out of mute
with a surge ?

N_Cook wrote in message
...
Hate the things, pa schematic out there but not prea it would seem. Preamp
problem t'would seem. At switch on a pair of 47uF electros fed via 120K
from
27V rail give increasing voltage that at about 8V , after 4 seconds, ends
up
putting a 3 to 5V pulse on the preamp outputs , straight into the power
amp,
both channels. This timed hold-off would seem deliberate, presumably
muting
off, but the DC surge?.
Anyway this of course upsets the amp which then has to re-settle,
otherwise
seetles in first second , but now outside its own time-off period and
delays
relay turn on ,or worse , makes the relay chatter , via its DC loudspeaker
protection cct activating.
What to look for that the preamps , both channels oddly, come out of mute
with a surge ?



eserviceinfo has the non-integrated C suffix, same sort of age, perhaps near
enough the same to get some hints,

Beggars and choosers comes to mind, hardly worth uploading let alone
downloading. Loads of long tail pairs , about the sum of information
content.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Hate the things, pa schematic out there but not prea it would seem. Preamp
problem t'would seem. At switch on a pair of 47uF electros fed via 120K
from
27V rail give increasing voltage that at about 8V , after 4 seconds, ends
up
putting a 3 to 5V pulse on the preamp outputs , straight into the power
amp,
both channels. This timed hold-off would seem deliberate, presumably
muting
off, but the DC surge?.
Anyway this of course upsets the amp which then has to re-settle,
otherwise
seetles in first second , but now outside its own time-off period and
delays
relay turn on ,or worse , makes the relay chatter , via its DC loudspeaker
protection cct activating.
What to look for that the preamps , both channels oddly, come out of mute
with a surge ?




Does the unit use muting transisors or FET's? These can get leaky, and are
often found right at the output.

Mark Z.

Mark Zacharias wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Hate the things, pa schematic out there but not prea it would seem.
Preamp
problem t'would seem. At switch on a pair of 47uF electros fed via 120K
from
27V rail give increasing voltage that at about 8V , after 4 seconds,
ends
up
putting a 3 to 5V pulse on the preamp outputs , straight into the power
amp,
both channels. This timed hold-off would seem deliberate, presumably
muting
off, but the DC surge?.
Anyway this of course upsets the amp which then has to re-settle,
otherwise
seetles in first second , but now outside its own time-off period and
delays
relay turn on ,or worse , makes the relay chatter , via its DC
loudspeaker
protection cct activating.
What to look for that the preamps , both channels oddly, come out of
mute
with a surge ?




Does the unit use muting transisors or FET's? These can get leaky, and are
often found right at the output.

Mark Z.


I will look into that. The eservice schema, cannot even see whether FETs
anywhere in the C version
As 2 separate "timers" I will add another 120K to one and see if the effect
is the same 2 sec in and 4 sec in.
As it stands they time in near enough together but only one may be at fault
and cross coupled into the other channel, otherwise 2 separate but identical
faults seems iffy. It may be a hf oscillation problem .
When I was scoping the amp output there was short bursts of 150KHz or so at
this 4 second point. Did not think of scoping the preamp then to see if the
hf was there also or just the DC pulse.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Mark Zacharias wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Hate the things, pa schematic out there but not prea it would seem.
Preamp
problem t'would seem. At switch on a pair of 47uF electros fed via 120K
from
27V rail give increasing voltage that at about 8V , after 4 seconds,
ends
up
putting a 3 to 5V pulse on the preamp outputs , straight into the power
amp,
both channels. This timed hold-off would seem deliberate, presumably
muting
off, but the DC surge?.
Anyway this of course upsets the amp which then has to re-settle,
otherwise
seetles in first second , but now outside its own time-off period and
delays
relay turn on ,or worse , makes the relay chatter , via its DC
loudspeaker
protection cct activating.
What to look for that the preamps , both channels oddly, come out of
mute
with a surge ?




Does the unit use muting transisors or FET's? These can get leaky, and
are
often found right at the output.

Mark Z.


I will look into that. The eservice schema, cannot even see whether FETs
anywhere in the C version
As 2 separate "timers" I will add another 120K to one and see if the
effect
is the same 2 sec in and 4 sec in.
As it stands they time in near enough together but only one may be at
fault
and cross coupled into the other channel, otherwise 2 separate but
identical
faults seems iffy. It may be a hf oscillation problem .
When I was scoping the amp output there was short bursts of 150KHz or so
at
this 4 second point. Did not think of scoping the preamp then to see if
the
hf was there also or just the DC pulse.






Yes, the timing certainly suggests this. At the end of the muting cycle, a
large DC bias is applied to the base or gate. With the drain or collector
sitting across the output to ground, this leaky transistor will then pass DC
to the output. It has been a relatively common failure on Pioneer and Yamaha
receivers, and I've seen it on Hafler preamps.

Mark Z.

Mark Zacharias wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
Mark Zacharias wrote in message
...
"N_Cook" wrote in message
...



Yes, the timing certainly suggests this. At the end of the muting cycle, a
large DC bias is applied to the base or gate. With the drain or collector
sitting across the output to ground, this leaky transistor will then pass
DC
to the output. It has been a relatively common failure on Pioneer and
Yamaha
receivers, and I've seen it on Hafler preamps.

Mark Z.


not had time to power it up again , but no FETs in there BC550 and BC560
only.

Is there any recognised circuit supplemental to allow for the replacement
transistors going leaky over time?
I suppose 20 years before metalisation creep/migration re-occurs in the
replacement, is fair use.

DC pulse in the prea , not oscillation. Both channels the same , by
changing one to 2 sec timing in.
Using the eservice 8000C preamp schematic (bottom right splodge) as just
litterally a pattern and then following traces and filling in component
values, the stage around the 4 sec timer and nearby circuitry agrees with
the prea section of this 8000A.
Other than the pulse starting from a Q13 with its base at a zener 4.7V at
switch on and after 4 seconds turning on , will have to see why a jump and
not smooth , but design would seem to be for a step change.

As I cannot find anything wrong as far as broken wrong, I will assume this
is as designed. I cannot see why there is a low 4K7 dropper from 27V to the
4.7V zener that basically causes this 5V DC pulse, when only supplying 80uA
at most into the base of a TO92 transistor, Q13. I will try upping the
dropper and adding a C to give a time constant of 2 seconds and change the
main hold off time constant from 4 sec to 2 sec also but keeping 13V bias
point, both channels. A few strange noises in the first couple of seconds ,
if that and only if the phones are connected, is surely preferable to 5V DC
pulses fed , delayed, into the PA.
So both will rise approximately together and so no 5V surge is possible.

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
As I cannot find anything wrong as far as broken wrong, I will assume this
is as designed. I cannot see why there is a low 4K7 dropper from 27V to
the
4.7V zener that basically causes this 5V DC pulse, when only supplying
80uA
at most into the base of a TO92 transistor, Q13.


That equates to a zener current of around 5mA, which seems an altogether
reasonable amount ?

Unless some defined minimum current flows through a zener, then it will not
produce a stable and accurate voltage across itself. The current into the
base of the transistor is supplementary to the current through the zener,
and of itself is generally an insignificant amount, depending on the current
demand from the transistor, and the DC gain of that transistor. If you
increase the value of the R, then the standing current through the zener
will drop, and it will likely not produce the correct voltage across itself.
Whilst 5mA through the zener is a 'reasonable' value (assuming it's a little
400mW job), it is never-the-less on the 'low' side of reasonable, and if I
was incorporating such a zener into any design of mine, I wouldn't want it
to be any lower than that to guarantee correct zener action.

I will try upping the
dropper and adding a C to give a time constant of 2 seconds and change the
main hold off time constant from 4 sec to 2 sec also but keeping 13V bias
point, both channels. A few strange noises in the first couple of seconds
,
if that and only if the phones are connected, is surely preferable to 5V
DC
pulses fed , delayed, into the PA.
So both will rise approximately together and so no 5V surge is possible.



I hear what you're trying to do, but for myself, I'm reluctant to start
modifying circuits that I don't fully understand the purpose or functioning
of, just because I feel that they may not be working as designed, or even as
desired. Sometimes I find that elements of a design turn out to be a 'best
effort' compromise by the designer and, even if that circuit element doesn't
work quite as he had hoped, it's as good as it can be. Be very careful that
any mods you dream up don't make the situation worse. There's no second
chances if the wrong amount of DC arrives at the input of a DC coupled amp,
as I'm sure you well know ...

Didn't Graham used to be involved with Audiolab gear at some time in the
past ? Could be wrong, but it seemed to ring some distant bells in the back
of my mind. Where is Graham these days, anyway ? Don't seem to see him on
here like we used ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"N_Cook" wrote in message
...
As I cannot find anything wrong as far as broken wrong, I will assume
this
is as designed. I cannot see why there is a low 4K7 dropper from 27V to
the
4.7V zener that basically causes this 5V DC pulse, when only supplying
80uA
at most into the base of a TO92 transistor, Q13.


That equates to a zener current of around 5mA, which seems an altogether
reasonable amount ?

Unless some defined minimum current flows through a zener, then it will
not
produce a stable and accurate voltage across itself. The current into the
base of the transistor is supplementary to the current through the zener,
and of itself is generally an insignificant amount, depending on the
current
demand from the transistor, and the DC gain of that transistor. If you
increase the value of the R, then the standing current through the zener
will drop, and it will likely not produce the correct voltage across
itself.
Whilst 5mA through the zener is a 'reasonable' value (assuming it's a
little
400mW job), it is never-the-less on the 'low' side of reasonable, and if I
was incorporating such a zener into any design of mine, I wouldn't want it
to be any lower than that to guarantee correct zener action.

I will try upping the
dropper and adding a C to give a time constant of 2 seconds and change
the
main hold off time constant from 4 sec to 2 sec also but keeping 13V
bias
point, both channels. A few strange noises in the first couple of
seconds
,
if that and only if the phones are connected, is surely preferable to 5V
DC
pulses fed , delayed, into the PA.
So both will rise approximately together and so no 5V surge is possible.



I hear what you're trying to do, but for myself, I'm reluctant to start
modifying circuits that I don't fully understand the purpose or
functioning
of, just because I feel that they may not be working as designed, or even
as
desired. Sometimes I find that elements of a design turn out to be a 'best
effort' compromise by the designer and, even if that circuit element
doesn't
work quite as he had hoped, it's as good as it can be. Be very careful
that
any mods you dream up don't make the situation worse. There's no second
chances if the wrong amount of DC arrives at the input of a DC coupled
amp,
as I'm sure you well know ...

Didn't Graham used to be involved with Audiolab gear at some time in the
past ? Could be wrong, but it seemed to ring some distant bells in the
back
of my mind. Where is Graham these days, anyway ? Don't seem to see him on
here like we used ...

Arfa



But DC is arriving at the PA 5V each ch for 0.1s or so every time it is
switched on . I cannot make matters worse than that. If you don't have
phones connected you never hear the clicks as it is over by the time the
relay clicks over for the speaker (normally), so perhaps everyone thinks it
is just a matter of the power rails still balancing up rather than
"designed" in.
Agreed on the zener. I see nothing wrong with putting 47K rather than 4K7
leaving plenty of headroom for functioning reference voltage and base feed.
I'm wondering if the designer, whoever it was, had an aversion to putting
electrolytic capacitors over zeners. Whenever I come across these Audiolabs
now I put a 22uF over each of the 4 , 12V zeners in the pa, as without them
amp is liable to hf oscillation (then self-immolation) with large dV/dt
spikes fed in the PA input eg fridge click.

On 23/02/2010 09:32, Arfa Daily wrote:
wrote in message
...
As I cannot find anything wrong as far as broken wrong, I will assume this
is as designed. I cannot see why there is a low 4K7 dropper from 27V to
the
4.7V zener that basically causes this 5V DC pulse, when only supplying
80uA
at most into the base of a TO92 transistor, Q13.


That equates to a zener current of around 5mA, which seems an altogether
reasonable amount ?

Unless some defined minimum current flows through a zener, then it will not
produce a stable and accurate voltage across itself. The current into the
base of the transistor is supplementary to the current through the zener,
and of itself is generally an insignificant amount, depending on the current
demand from the transistor, and the DC gain of that transistor. If you
increase the value of the R, then the standing current through the zener
will drop, and it will likely not produce the correct voltage across itself.
Whilst 5mA through the zener is a 'reasonable' value (assuming it's a little
400mW job), it is never-the-less on the 'low' side of reasonable, and if I
was incorporating such a zener into any design of mine, I wouldn't want it
to be any lower than that to guarantee correct zener action.

I will try upping the
dropper and adding a C to give a time constant of 2 seconds and change the
main hold off time constant from 4 sec to 2 sec also but keeping 13V bias
point, both channels. A few strange noises in the first couple of seconds
,
if that and only if the phones are connected, is surely preferable to 5V
DC
pulses fed , delayed, into the PA.
So both will rise approximately together and so no 5V surge is possible.



I hear what you're trying to do, but for myself, I'm reluctant to start
modifying circuits that I don't fully understand the purpose or functioning
of, just because I feel that they may not be working as designed, or even as
desired. Sometimes I find that elements of a design turn out to be a 'best
effort' compromise by the designer and, even if that circuit element doesn't
work quite as he had hoped, it's as good as it can be. Be very careful that
any mods you dream up don't make the situation worse. There's no second
chances if the wrong amount of DC arrives at the input of a DC coupled amp,
as I'm sure you well know ...

Didn't Graham used to be involved with Audiolab gear at some time in the
past ? Could be wrong, but it seemed to ring some distant bells in the back
of my mind. Where is Graham these days, anyway ? Don't seem to see him on
here like we used ...

Not sure about Audiolab, Graham worked for Studiomaster as a designer,
however, these days much of Studiomasters output comes from those 'far
eastern' manufacturers these days. (Phonic, SoundKing etc.)

I havent seen or heard from him for quite a while, we used to natter
away on MSN. He alluded to a job offer in some far flung part of the
planet, maybe he`s just busy.

Ron

snip



But DC is arriving at the PA 5V each ch for 0.1s or so every time it is
switched on . I cannot make matters worse than that.

Well, if the zener does not stabilize the voltage across itself to 4v7 due
to the standing current in it being too low after you have 'tweaked' the
value of its limiter resistor, but instead goes to some higher voltage, you
could ...

If you don't have
phones connected you never hear the clicks as it is over by the time the
relay clicks over for the speaker (normally), so perhaps everyone thinks
it
is just a matter of the power rails still balancing up rather than
"designed" in.

If the power amp is not objecting, and you can't actually hear a problem due
to the speaker relay not being pulled until after this event anyway, why
worry about it? After all, the amp is not really doing anything that it
wasn't actually designed to do in the first place. The input drive from the
preamp probably reaches 5v peak anyway, so the power amp would not see this
as being anything different from a 5v pulse during power up, would it ?


Agreed on the zener. I see nothing wrong with putting 47K rather than 4K7
leaving plenty of headroom for functioning reference voltage and base
feed.


But 47k will reduce the standing current in the zener to around 0.5mA, and
with the best will in the world, it ain't gonna produce a stable 4v7 at that
low level of current ....

Arfa


I'm wondering if the designer, whoever it was, had an aversion to putting
electrolytic capacitors over zeners. Whenever I come across these
Audiolabs
now I put a 22uF over each of the 4 , 12V zeners in the pa, as without
them
amp is liable to hf oscillation (then self-immolation) with large dV/dt
spikes fed in the PA input eg fridge click.

Now a volt or so on output within first second, each channel, and PA can now
settle within its design alloted time span.