Think this through with me ...
Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg
display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory". LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that. Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push. The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits up. After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups. So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND, 1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe. What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ? Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. Any thoughts anyone ? Arfa |
Think this through with me ...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. It's actually a British Rail "Train Arival Time Display". The stationmaster pushes the button and a time comes up. When the train does not arrive, he announces a delay and "a new time will be posted". He pushes the button again and a new time is displayed. This can go on for days before the passengers give up and go home, or by some strange chance, a train actually arrives. :-) Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
Think this through with me ...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory". LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that. Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push. The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits up. After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups. So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND, 1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe. What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ? Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. Any thoughts anyone ? Arfa Hi Arfa, If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo ! They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the club. -- Best Regards: Baron. |
Think this through with me ...
"Baron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory". LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that. Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push. The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits up. After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups. So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND, 1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe. What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ? Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. Any thoughts anyone ? Arfa Hi Arfa, If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo ! They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the club. -- Best Regards: Baron. Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members pool draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence ! Arfa |
Think this through with me ...
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:
"Baron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory". LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that. Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push. The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits up. After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups. So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND, 1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe. What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ? Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. Any thoughts anyone ? Arfa Hi Arfa, If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo ! They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the club. -- Best Regards: Baron. Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members pool draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence ! Arfa Carfield was the company that I couldn't remember last night ! They may have had a division in London. I really don't know. They did do Bingo machines but I haven't seen any of theirs for years. The bingo machines were very simple blowers mounted in the bottom of a glass sided box ! The plastic balls were simply pushed by the air blast, up a perspex tube and manually removed at the top. PS. Don't you sleep. I note that your response was posted at 01:47 this morning. :-) I was catching Zzzz's at that time. -- Best Reagrds: Baron. |
Think this through with me ...
"Baron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily Inscribed thus: "Baron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory". LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that. Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push. The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits up. After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups. So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND, 1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe. What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ? Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years. Any thoughts anyone ? Arfa Hi Arfa, If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo ! They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the club. -- Best Regards: Baron. Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members pool draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence ! Arfa Carfield was the company that I couldn't remember last night ! They may have had a division in London. I really don't know. They did do Bingo machines but I haven't seen any of theirs for years. The bingo machines were very simple blowers mounted in the bottom of a glass sided box ! The plastic balls were simply pushed by the air blast, up a perspex tube and manually removed at the top. PS. Don't you sleep. I note that your response was posted at 01:47 this morning. :-) I was catching Zzzz's at that time. -- Best Reagrds: Baron. The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Probably why the lottery uses that sort of machine to generate the numbers. I don't suppose in the long run it actually matters, as the sequence is still sufficiently random that you wouldn't be able to actually predict it, and have a set of cards that were guaranteed to win as a result, still, I always used to think when I went regularly, that considering the number of clubs all over the country taking part in linked games, it was strange how the same couple of clubs always seemed to win the big prizes ... I stopped going regularly a few months back. It used to be a good reasonably priced night out in a very nice club. Good food, good bars. Excellently managed and staffed. It was originally a family business, but a while back, they sold it on to one of the big chains - Riva I think it is - and since then, it has gone steadily downhill. Funny how sometimes, it really *is* the people who make a business what it is. The wife and I won quite a bit of money over the years. She is especially lucky at any games of chance. If you take out the cost of food and drinks, overall, we were probably close to or just about even on the year, which was fine by us. We seldom went more than a couple of weeks without winning a few quid. As to sleeping, I've always been a night person. I am seldom in bed before 3am, and up again around 8:30. I don't have far to go to work, as I have my workshop attached to the house :-) Arfa |
Think this through with me ...
Arfa Daily wrote:
The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) |
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Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. jak |
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jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" |
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Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak |
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jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. None taken, AIUI that`s a leftpondian term for an unsavoury travelling fairground or carnival person. My ancestors were 'travellers' tho settled down and became 'flatties' when my Dad was a boy. My fairground days were spent on a seaside fixed ground. Ron |
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"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals. Gareth. |
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Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals. Gareth. I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies. Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM. jak |
Think this through with me ...
"Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game, quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded. Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during the inter-session tabletop games. Arfa It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) |
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"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. jak Bingo in the UK is huge. Just about every town and city has a bingo hall. There are a couple of very large chains, and several smaller independants who operate them. They are often located in former cinemas, but many are also in custom buildings. You have to be 18 and a member to enter the premises and play, because it is licensed as a gambling establishment. Whilst the game and clubs used to be associated primarily with the blue rinse brigade, most have worked hard to dispel this image, and the demographic has changed a lot over the past 15 years perhaps. You will now find all ages from 18 to 80+ all happily attending a bingo club. The social aspect has been 'bigged up' considerably, and most clubs now have comfortable table seating, air conditioning, bars and food, as well as slots, and sometimes entertainment as well. My local club holds over 1800 people, and there are others that are even bigger. http://www.rivabingo.com/find_a_club...ls/northampton Several millions GBP are paid out in prize money collectively, every week. In my club for instance, on a Sunday night, the last three in-house games are worth £1500 each. The Sunday night link game is worth £13000, and the National Game used to be worth £200k, but less now. A couple of years back, I took a share of the National Game regional pot, which amounted to nearly £7k, so not to be sneezed at. I don't know how long this situation will persist though. The industry was dealt a big blow by the smoking ban that was brought in in 2006, and then another one when our government's chancellor altered the taxation laws to get double tax from the clubs. The current economic situation might be the last straw, if people start to see their wallets getting thinner, and continue to lose their jobs. Social activities like bingo, would likely be one of the first belt-tightening exercises. I would think that the balance between keeping prize money at a level that makes it worth going, against revenue from falling numbers, would be a tricky one, that probably has a graph with a cliff on it ... Arfa |
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Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game, quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded. Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during the inter-session tabletop games. Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets ;) but the bingo caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can if he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them back down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random. A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of showmanship involved. I think it`s all a bit sterile these days. Ron |
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jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote: "jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals. Gareth. I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies. Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM. Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years. There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are few these days. Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and travellers. My how far we've wandered from the topic. Ron |
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"Ron" wrote in message ... jakdedert wrote: Gareth Magennis wrote: "jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals. Gareth. I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies. Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM. Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years. There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are few these days. Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and travellers. Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey" has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly evolving. In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness). I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US. Gareth. |
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"Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game, quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded. Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during the inter-session tabletop games. Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets ;) but the bingo caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can if he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them back down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random. A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of showmanship involved. I think it`s all a bit sterile these days. Ron Ah, OK. With you now. I guess the lottery machines are the best of all worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more random. There's still a fair bit of showmanship involved in the high speed tabletop cash bingo, even though it is computer based. Most of the ones who call it in my club, are 'characters', and do a fine job of 'working the crowd', particularly when there are bonus prizes involved. I do however, agree that there was more skill and tension involved when the board in play was marked by having to spot the numbers, and slide little shutters over them. With the modern electronic boards, it is only necessary to keep waving a hand continuously over the 'mark' lozenge, to ensure that every number that you have on your board is lit as it's called (or even before it's called). The only skill then is in spotting that you have a winning combination so that you can wave your hand over the 'win' lozenge ... People who play the tabletop games tend to always sit at the same table, as they have 'learnt' the sixteen numbers on their board. My wife can tell if she would have won, even if she's not playing. She can do this even if she's doing something else like reading a newspaper. She can be reading something to you, and will stop mid-sentence and say "I'd have just won if I'd had my money in". Amazing what the brain is capable of doing, and I believe that the female brain is better than the male at this sort of horizontal multi-tasking. Arfa |
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Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more random. There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random. I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think. In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the organisers interests for rollovers to occur. As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event. Ron |
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"Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: I guess the lottery machines are the best of all worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more random. There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random. I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think. In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the organisers interests for rollovers to occur. As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event. Ron Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot? I smell fish.... Roy |
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Roy L wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: I guess the lottery machines are the best of all worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more random. There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random. I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think. In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the organisers interests for rollovers to occur. As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event. Ron Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot? I smell fish.... Personally, I`d much rather 14 people won 1 million pounds each than one person winning 14 million. Ron |
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Gareth Magennis wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message ... jakdedert wrote: Gareth Magennis wrote: "jakdedert" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: jakdedert wrote: Ron wrote: Arfa Daily wrote: The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder. Ron(UK) Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I doubt it. Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos. Ron [1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to play. " Another Winner!" Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy connotation...no offense. jak Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals. Gareth. I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies. Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM. Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years. There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are few these days. Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and travellers. Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey" has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly evolving. In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness). I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US. Gareth. To the carnies themselves, probably not at all...maybe even a badge of distinction. To others...well. jak |
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"Roy L" wrote in message ... "Ron" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: I guess the lottery machines are the best of all worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more random. There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random. I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think. In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the organisers interests for rollovers to occur. As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event. Ron Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot? I smell fish.... Roy It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~} Arfa |
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"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Roy L" wrote in message ... I am one of the people who no longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot? I smell fish.... Roy It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~} Arfa Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty contract for everyone in the know. Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7 numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood! Roy |
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"Roy L" wrote in message ... "Arfa Daily" wrote in message ... "Roy L" wrote in message ... I am one of the people who no longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot? I smell fish.... Roy It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~} Arfa Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty contract for everyone in the know. Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7 numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood! Roy LOL ! I really don't think that you would manage to get as many people involved as would be needed to keep it 'illegally' quiet - there's always someone with high morals and ideals. In the 14 or 15 years that it's been running, one of them would have surfaced by now, and blown the whistle. If spies who sign the official secrets act on threat of imprisonment are prepared to whistle-blow, I'm sure you would not manage to keep such a fraud on the population secret for this long, given how many people past and present would have to be in on it. I actually had a look at the stats late last night, and the 'popularity' of the numbers, draw-wise, ranges from around 150 I think it was, to 199, which seems a fairly random-ish result. Statistics is a funny old business, and you can show patterns in any set of reasonably complex data that spans 15 years. Governments do it all the time. Also, there seemed to be a number of occasions listed where there *were* multiple winners. Given the extremely long odds of winning even a fiver, let alone the jackpot, is it actually that surprising that there is relatively few occasions on which there are two or three winners, let alone dozens ? I actually think that your personal syndicate stats of three or four wins of forty quid a year, are quite good ! If we accept that no technical or mechanical fiddles are going on with the machines, ball sets, people involved etc, then I still think that the types of machine used for the various lottery draws *have*, purely by the way they operate, to be the most effective way of generating the closest thing to a truly random number, a series of which must be pattern-free, other than 'natural' patterns which will always be there to be found in data, if you look for them hard enough ... Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion as always, that has now wandered far from my original thoughts. Tomorrow, the unit in question will go back top the shop which took it in, for them to inform its owner that sadly, it is not what they thought it was ... Anybody wants to add any other comments to this thread, I'm happy to keep going. Thanks all. Arfa |
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Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. |
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. Here in the UK they are like an old oversize jukebox, the balls are visible in the top part. We dont know what is in the bottom part. At intervals a gate allows a ball to pop through into a chute. For all we know, this gate only opens when the "right" ball is in the correct position. I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the balls are "serviced" by an electronics company. Very strange if true. Perhaps I should have taken this to another thread or even group, sorry about the apparent hijack Arfa. Blame Ron, HE started it! Roy |
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. While there's no such thing as a 'United States' lottery, many of the various states have initiated such a contest. Each administers its own system as it sees fit. I personally am ambiguous about the idea of government getting into the gambling business. The tickets are sold mostly in convenience stores, which often takes the 'convenience' out of them, when you get in line behind someone substituting the State for his dream trip to Vegas. OTOH, my own daughter is going to college with some of the funds thus generated. In Tennessee, the numbers were originally generated by mechanical means, but last year they went to a system of computer-generation. I expect a little research would reveal several different systems. jak |
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|
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. That is the same with the National Lottery (nka "Lotto") machines here in the UK. There are also about 10 or so different ones, and a similar amount of ball sets. Both the machine and ball set are picked on the day. It used to be done by a member of the public on the street just 'randomly' (ha!) choosing an envelope from many, but I have no idea how they arrive at machine and ball set these days. Arfa |
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"Roy L" wrote in message ... "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. Here in the UK they are like an old oversize jukebox, the balls are visible in the top part. We dont know what is in the bottom part. At intervals a gate allows a ball to pop through into a chute. For all we know, this gate only opens when the "right" ball is in the correct position. I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the balls are "serviced" by an electronics company. Very strange if true. Perhaps I should have taken this to another thread or even group, sorry about the apparent hijack Arfa. Blame Ron, HE started it! Roy No probs. I think that these discussions, however loosely electronics related, are often very interesting and sometimes enlightening. I don't think that there is a problem with them taking place, as long as a group is not taken over by them, by way of people starting threads that are way off topic in the first place. I know that some people on some groups have a real problem with it, but as long as I have been associated with this group - which is some years now - it has always taken place, and as long as it stays in one thread at a time, I don't see it as a problem. I think it is just the equivalent of a bunch of like-minded engineers having a natter over a pint at the pub, and shows that we are not just nerdy electronic engineering computer freaks, but have other interests as well. :-) Arfa |
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"jakdedert" wrote in message ... William Sommerwerck wrote: Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or electro-mechanical devices. While there's no such thing as a 'United States' lottery, many of the various states have initiated such a contest. Each administers its own system as it sees fit. I personally am ambiguous about the idea of government getting into the gambling business. The tickets are sold mostly in convenience stores, which often takes the 'convenience' out of them, when you get in line behind someone substituting the State for his dream trip to Vegas. OTOH, my own daughter is going to college with some of the funds thus generated. In Tennessee, the numbers were originally generated by mechanical means, but last year they went to a system of computer-generation. I expect a little research would reveal several different systems. jak Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to be 'in the know' about it. As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit like you on that score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are 'given away' to good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or whatever of the organisation. You just make your application stating what the money is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can, and it will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money allocated to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't preclude trying again, as many times as you like. Arfa |
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Arfa Daily wrote:
Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to be 'in the know' about it. I worry about that, but then again, it's not 'my' money. I'm just not a gambler, despite doing a fair amount of work in some of the largest casinos in the world over the last three years: three or four weeks in Vegas, three in Uncasville, CT (Mohegan Sun--second largest casino in the world, and very few outside of the Northeast US have even heard of it). As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit like you on that score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are 'given away' to good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or whatever of the organisation. You just make your application stating what the money is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can, and it will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money allocated to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't preclude trying again, as many times as you like. In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships, for which qualification is required...both initially and in order to renew. That was the bargain the voters made with the Devil when they approved it on a referendum. AIRC, it took an amendment to the state constitution. FTR, I voted 'nay'. I always saw it as a tax on the poor, although one they eagerly pay.... jak Arfa |
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:26:26 -0600, jakdedert
wrote: In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships, In California, the state lottery money is distributed directly to the various state skool districts through the state bored of edukation. http://www.calottery.com/support/lotteryfunds/ Most of the money goes to the State and local colleges. Kindergarten - 12th Grade 80.54% Community Colleges 13.31% California State University System 3.74% University of California 2.20% Other Educational Entities 0.21% The bulk of the K12 funding goes to school districts with large immigrant populations. The percentages seem to vary each year depending mostly on the success or failure of various skool bond elections. The problem is that for every dollar contributed by the lottery, the state redirects some of the budgeted educational funds for other purposes. It's a net win for the skools, but not as much as it would be if the state were not constantly juggling the funding. I keep hearing horror stories of teachers buying classroom supplies with their own money, so I know things are not working too well. In Santa Cruz county, the state installed a central 900MHz wireless access point on top of the 4 story county building. Various convenience stores and gas stations all have yagis pointing to the this access point. Saves quite a bit on telco and datacomm costs. Personally, I'm opposed to the entire concept on ethical grounds. However, since it seems to be a tax on the statistically challenged, I'm not opposed to separating them from their money. I bought a few tickets perhaps 20 years ago when the system first appeared. I lost on all of them and have not bought a lottery ticket since then. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Arfa Daily wrote: Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to be 'in the know' about it. I worry about that, but then again, it's not 'my' money. I'm just not a gambler, despite doing a fair amount of work in some of the largest casinos in the world over the last three years: three or four weeks in Vegas, three in Uncasville, CT (Mohegan Sun--second largest casino in the world, and very few outside of the Northeast US have even heard of it). As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit like you on that score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are 'given away' to good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or whatever of the organisation. You just make your application stating what the money is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can, and it will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money allocated to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't preclude trying again, as many times as you like. In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships, for which qualification is required...both initially and in order to renew. That was the bargain the voters made with the Devil when they approved it on a referendum. AIRC, it took an amendment to the state constitution. FTR, I voted 'nay'. I always saw it as a tax on the poor, although one they eagerly pay.... jak Arfa Interestingly, the phrase "Tax on the poor" is precisely the one that has been used many times here, too ... Arfa |
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Arfa Daily wrote:
Interestingly, the phrase "Tax on the poor" is precisely the one that has been used many times here, too ... Thomas Jefferson was for the lottery, saying that it only taxes the willing. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
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