Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7 seg
display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded switch units to
set start and end number. Has jack input to which is connected a hand-held
push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that this thing is from 1981. It
looks 'professionally' hand built, if you see what I mean. It has stickers
on with a company name, but that could be largely meaningless. Two problems
reported. First that it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it
had "lost its memory".

LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was not
lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up the
segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that.

Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be set to
"1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is done, it does
indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one per button push.

The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any game
in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has already
produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it all goes tits
up.

After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start and end
numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to get all ten
numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups.

So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011 quad
NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND,
1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555 timer and
last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if I'm
just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm buggered if I
can see any chips in that line up that could form a memory and comparator
for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90 numbers come to that ... If
this is what it was meant to do, even back in '81, I would have expected to
see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor, maybe.

What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in thinking that
it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it in fact a raffle
ticket drawing machine, where you would set the serial numbers of the first
and last tickets sold out of a batch of perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10
prize ticket numbers with the chances of it duplicating any when it's only
generating ten random numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ?

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel
that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my
feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it
has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere
for 20 years.

Any thoughts anyone ?

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they feel
that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the moment, my
feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little club, and that it
has been given to them after sitting long forgotten in an attic somewhere
for 20 years.

It's actually a British Rail "Train Arival Time Display". The stationmaster
pushes the button and a time comes up. When the train does not arrive,
he announces a delay and "a new time will be posted". He pushes the button
again and a new time is displayed.

This can go on for days before the passengers give up and go home,
or by some strange chance, a train actually arrives.

:-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

Arfa Daily wrote:

Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7
seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded
switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is
connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that
this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you
see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that
could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had
a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory".

LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was
not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up
the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that.

Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be
set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is
done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one
per button push.

The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any
game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has
already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it
all goes tits up.

After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start
and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to
get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups.

So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011
quad
NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND,
1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555
timer and
last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if
I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm
buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a
memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90
numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back
in '81, I would have expected to
see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor,
maybe.

What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in
thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it
in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the
serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of
perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the
chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random
numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ?

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they
feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the
moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little
club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten
in an attic somewhere for 20 years.

Any thoughts anyone ?

Arfa

Hi Arfa,

If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo !
They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended
for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a
number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member
who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the
club.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.

"Baron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit 7
seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded
switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is
connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate that
this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built, if you
see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but that
could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that it had
a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its memory".

LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was
not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made up
the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that.

Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would be
set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if this is
done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1 to 90, one
per button push.

The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for any
game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it has
already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is where it
all goes tits up.

After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start
and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes to
get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times dups.

So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011
quad
NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND,
1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555
timer and
last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know if
I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but I'm
buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form a
memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for 90
numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even back
in '81, I would have expected to
see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor,
maybe.

What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in
thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is it
in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the
serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of
perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the
chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random
numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ?

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they
feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the
moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little
club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long forgotten
in an attic somewhere for 20 years.

Any thoughts anyone ?

Arfa

Hi Arfa,

If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo !
They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended
for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had a
number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member
who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the
club.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel
Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members pool
draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence !

Arfa

Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:


"Baron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit
7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded
switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is
connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate
that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built,
if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but
that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that
it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its
memory".

LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was
not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made
up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that.

Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would
be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if
this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1
to 90, one per button push.

The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for
any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it
has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is
where it all goes tits up.

After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start
and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes
to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times
dups.

So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011
quad
NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND,
1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555
timer and
last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know
if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but
I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form
a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for
90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even
back in '81, I would have expected to
see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor,
maybe.

What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in
thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is
it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the
serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of
perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the
chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random
numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ?

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they
feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the
moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little
club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long
forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years.

Any thoughts anyone ?

Arfa

Hi Arfa,

If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo !
They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended
for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had
a
number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member
who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the
club.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel
Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members
pool draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence
!

Arfa

Carfield was the company that I couldn't remember last night ! They may
have had a division in London. I really don't know. They did do Bingo
machines but I haven't seen any of theirs for years.

The bingo machines were very simple blowers mounted in the bottom of a
glass sided box ! The plastic balls were simply pushed by the air
blast, up a perspex tube and manually removed at the top.

PS. Don't you sleep. I note that your response was posted at 01:47 this
morning. :-) I was catching Zzzz's at that time.

--
Best Reagrds:
Baron.

"Baron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily Inscribed thus:


"Baron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

Booked in by shop as a 'Bingo calling unit'. It has a large 5 digit
7 seg display made from discrete LEDs. Has two 5 digit BCD encoded
switch units to set start and end number. Has jack input to which is
connected a hand-held push button unit. Chip date codes indicate
that this thing is from 1981. It looks 'professionally' hand built,
if you see what I mean. It has stickers on with a company name, but
that could be largely meaningless. Two problems reported. First that
it had a problem with the LEDs, and secondly that it had "lost its
memory".

LED problem was straightforward enough. One segment of one digit was
not lighting due to one LED in the series chain of five which made
up the segment, being open circuit. A replacement LED restored that.

Now, the second problem. For playing bingo, the start number would
be set to "1", and the end number to "90". All ok so far, and if
this is done, it does indeed generate random numbers in the range 1
to 90, one per button push.

The next requirement is that the unit is going to need to know for
any game in progress, which of the numbers between 1 and 90 that it
has already produced so that they are not duplicated, and this is
where it all goes tits up.

After a while, numbers *do* start to duplicate. If you set the start
and end numbers to say "1" and "10", it might take 15 button pushes
to get all ten numbers out, the other five being one or more times
dups.

So I have a good look at what's in it. 2 x 4027 dual J-K, 3 x 4011
quad
NAND, 2 x 4081 quad AND,
1 x 4040 12 stage counter, 1 x 4020 14 stage counter, 1 x 555
timer and
last but not least, 1 x MK50395 decoder / driver. Now I don't know
if I'm just being dumb-arsed here, or having a senior moment, but
I'm buggered if I can see any chips in that line up that could form
a memory and comparator for potentially 99999 numbers. Or even for
90 numbers come to that ... If this is what it was meant to do, even
back in '81, I would have expected to
see a couple of CMOS memory chips, and a Z80 or 8080 processor,
maybe.

What am I missing here ? Could it be that they are mistaken in
thinking that it can be used to properly call a game of bingo ? Is
it in fact a raffle ticket drawing machine, where you would set the
serial numbers of the first and last tickets sold out of a batch of
perhaps 1000 and then draw maybe 10 prize ticket numbers with the
chances of it duplicating any when it's only generating ten random
numbers out of a pool of 1000, being at worst, slim ?

Haven't managed to get hold of the owners again yet to check if they
feel that it has ever worked as a bingo calling machine, but at the
moment, my feeling is that it is a 'new acquisition' to some little
club, and that it has been given to them after sitting long
forgotten in an attic somewhere for 20 years.

Any thoughts anyone ?

Arfa

Hi Arfa,

If you have what I think you have it was never intended for Bingo !
They were made in Leeds, I forget the company name, but were intended
for use in Working Mens Clubs for the members pool ! Each member had
a
number and the members paid money into a pool each week. The member
who got his number called took the money less a few percent for the
club.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.


Hi Baron. Yes, that's my feeling too. This was actually made in Hemel
Hempstead according to the stickers on it. I'd forgotten about members
pool draws. It's been many years since I graced a WMC with my presence
!

Arfa

Carfield was the company that I couldn't remember last night ! They may
have had a division in London. I really don't know. They did do Bingo
machines but I haven't seen any of theirs for years.

The bingo machines were very simple blowers mounted in the bottom of a
glass sided box ! The plastic balls were simply pushed by the air
blast, up a perspex tube and manually removed at the top.

PS. Don't you sleep. I note that your response was posted at 01:47 this
morning. :-) I was catching Zzzz's at that time.

--
Best Reagrds:
Baron.

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary. Probably why the lottery uses
that sort of machine to generate the numbers. I don't suppose in the long
run it actually matters, as the sequence is still sufficiently random that
you wouldn't be able to actually predict it, and have a set of cards that
were guaranteed to win as a result, still, I always used to think when I
went regularly, that considering the number of clubs all over the country
taking part in linked games, it was strange how the same couple of clubs
always seemed to win the big prizes ... I stopped going regularly a few
months back. It used to be a good reasonably priced night out in a very nice
club. Good food, good bars. Excellently managed and staffed. It was
originally a family business, but a while back, they sold it on to one of
the big chains - Riva I think it is - and since then, it has gone steadily
downhill. Funny how sometimes, it really *is* the people who make a business
what it is. The wife and I won quite a bit of money over the years. She is
especially lucky at any games of chance. If you take out the cost of food
and drinks, overall, we were probably close to or just about even on the
year, which was fine by us. We seldom went more than a couple of weeks
without winning a few quid.

As to sleeping, I've always been a night person. I am seldom in bed before
3am, and up again around 8:30. I don't have far to go to work, as I have my
workshop attached to the house :-)

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.

jak

jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct
the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days
of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by
the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.

Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"

Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct
the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days
of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by
the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies
at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.

Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"

Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak

jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy,
and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can
direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to
individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the
earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a
chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms,
but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different
demographic, but somehow I doubt it.

Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining
slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I
spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several
bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"

Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

None taken, AIUI that`s a leftpondian term for an unsavoury travelling
fairground or carnival person.

My ancestors were 'travellers' tho settled down and became 'flatties'
when my Dad was a boy. My fairground days were spent on a seaside fixed
ground.

Ron

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.

Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to
play. " Another Winner!"

Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working
travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based
on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals.


Gareth.

Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to
play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working
travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based
on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals.


Gareth.


I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

jak

"Ron" wrote in message
news
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game,
quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not
how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being
blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer
generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall
into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some
programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded.
Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different
empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during
the inter-session tabletop games.

Arfa


It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game,
where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what
the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.
It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game,
where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never
bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I
doubt it.

jak

Bingo in the UK is huge. Just about every town and city has a bingo hall.
There are a couple of very large chains, and several smaller independants
who operate them. They are often located in former cinemas, but many are
also in custom buildings. You have to be 18 and a member to enter the
premises and play, because it is licensed as a gambling establishment.
Whilst the game and clubs used to be associated primarily with the blue
rinse brigade, most have worked hard to dispel this image, and the
demographic has changed a lot over the past 15 years perhaps. You will now
find all ages from 18 to 80+ all happily attending a bingo club. The social
aspect has been 'bigged up' considerably, and most clubs now have
comfortable table seating, air conditioning, bars and food, as well as
slots, and sometimes entertainment as well. My local club holds over 1800
people, and there are others that are even bigger.

http://www.rivabingo.com/find_a_club...ls/northampton

Several millions GBP are paid out in prize money collectively, every week.
In my club for instance, on a Sunday night, the last three in-house games
are worth £1500 each. The Sunday night link game is worth £13000, and the
National Game used to be worth £200k, but less now. A couple of years back,
I took a share of the National Game regional pot, which amounted to nearly
£7k, so not to be sneezed at.

I don't know how long this situation will persist though. The industry was
dealt a big blow by the smoking ban that was brought in in 2006, and then
another one when our government's chancellor altered the taxation laws to
get double tax from the clubs. The current economic situation might be the
last straw, if people start to see their wallets getting thinner, and
continue to lose their jobs. Social activities like bingo, would likely be
one of the first belt-tightening exercises. I would think that the balance
between keeping prize money at a level that makes it worth going, against
revenue from falling numbers, would be a tricky one, that probably has a
graph with a cliff on it ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message
news
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game,
quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not
how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being
blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer
generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall
into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some
programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded.
Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different
empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during
the inter-session tabletop games.


Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets but the bingo
caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can
if he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them
back down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random.
A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody
sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of
showmanship involved.

I think it`s all a bit sterile these days.

Ron

jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no
matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s
busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good
operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house -
possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to
manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden
balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo
rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a
different demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was
maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small
scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various
stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage
others to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the
closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with
no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and
there are wintering grounds which have been established for many many
years. There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect
they are few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.

My how far we've wandered from the topic.

Ron

"Ron" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy,
and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can
direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to
individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the
earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a
chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms,
but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different
demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining
slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I
spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several
bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there
are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years.
There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are
few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.




Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey"
has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly
evolving.
In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is
intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far
from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the
context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a
blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness).

I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US.


Gareth.

"Ron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message
news
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what
the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the
game, quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play,
but not how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them
being blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern
computer generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend
to fall into a range during any particular session, presumably as a
result of some programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is
derived or loaded. Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play
table to a different empty one with a board number in the numeric area
that is winning, during the inter-session tabletop games.


Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets but the bingo
caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can if
he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them back
down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random.
A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody
sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of
showmanship involved.

I think it`s all a bit sterile these days.

Ron

Ah, OK. With you now. I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time
mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more
random. There's still a fair bit of showmanship involved in the high speed
tabletop cash bingo, even though it is computer based. Most of the ones who
call it in my club, are 'characters', and do a fine job of 'working the
crowd', particularly when there are bonus prizes involved. I do however,
agree that there was more skill and tension involved when the board in play
was marked by having to spot the numbers, and slide little shutters over
them. With the modern electronic boards, it is only necessary to keep waving
a hand continuously over the 'mark' lozenge, to ensure that every number
that you have on your board is lit as it's called (or even before it's
called). The only skill then is in spotting that you have a winning
combination so that you can wave your hand over the 'win' lozenge ...

People who play the tabletop games tend to always sit at the same table, as
they have 'learnt' the sixteen numbers on their board. My wife can tell if
she would have won, even if she's not playing. She can do this even if she's
doing something else like reading a newspaper. She can be reading something
to you, and will stop mid-sentence and say "I'd have just won if I'd had my
money in". Amazing what the brain is capable of doing, and I believe that
the female brain is better than the male at this sort of horizontal
multi-tasking.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time
mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more
random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results
of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have
been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would
suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the
organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

"Ron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could
make it any more random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the
results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely
random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to
have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the
average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in
teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in
the organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no
longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some
years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded
RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the
draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been
a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy

Roy L wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could
make it any more random.
There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the
results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely
random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to
have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the
average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in
teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in
the organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no
longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some
years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded
RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the
draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been
a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Personally, I`d much rather 14 people won 1 million pounds each than one
person winning 14 million.

Ron

Gareth Magennis wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy,
and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can
direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to
individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the
earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a
chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms,
but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different
demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining
slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I
spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several
bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak

Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.
Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there
are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years.
There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are
few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.




Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey"
has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly
evolving.
In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is
intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far
from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the
context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a
blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness).

I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US.


Gareth.


To the carnies themselves, probably not at all...maybe even a badge of
distinction. To others...well.

jak

"Roy L" wrote in message
...

"Ron" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make
it any more random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results
of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested
that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been
heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would
suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I
think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the
organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies.
Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the
meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of
getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not
understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector
using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket
after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has
there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the
jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a bit
obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and a whole
host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I think
that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and that the
smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~}

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Roy L" wrote in message
...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years
back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is
to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or
embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after
7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has
there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing
the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would
be a bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to
implement, and a whole host of people from the designers to the
programmers and machine constructors who would all need to keep
their mouths shut about it. I think that might be taking conspiracy
theories a bit far, really, and that the smell of fish is drifting
up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the
operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let
me examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still
am a member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of
7 numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually
average about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a
set of numbers that too many people are also using! The fish reference
was a bit tongue in cheek - although I dont live too far away from
Fleetwood!

Roy

"Roy L" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Roy L" wrote in message
...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No
replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO.
Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change?
Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe
public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently
random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can
you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes
until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of
people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a
bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and
a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I
think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and
that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ...
!! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the
operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me
examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a
member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7
numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average
about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers
that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue
in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood!

Roy

LOL ! I really don't think that you would manage to get as many people
involved as would be needed to keep it 'illegally' quiet - there's always
someone with high morals and ideals. In the 14 or 15 years that it's been
running, one of them would have surfaced by now, and blown the whistle. If
spies who sign the official secrets act on threat of imprisonment are
prepared to whistle-blow, I'm sure you would not manage to keep such a fraud
on the population secret for this long, given how many people past and
present would have to be in on it.

I actually had a look at the stats late last night, and the 'popularity' of
the numbers, draw-wise, ranges from around 150 I think it was, to 199, which
seems a fairly random-ish result. Statistics is a funny old business, and
you can show patterns in any set of reasonably complex data that spans 15
years. Governments do it all the time. Also, there seemed to be a number of
occasions listed where there *were* multiple winners. Given the extremely
long odds of winning even a fiver, let alone the jackpot, is it actually
that surprising that there is relatively few occasions on which there are
two or three winners, let alone dozens ? I actually think that your personal
syndicate stats of three or four wins of forty quid a year, are quite good !

If we accept that no technical or mechanical fiddles are going on with the
machines, ball sets, people involved etc, then I still think that the types
of machine used for the various lottery draws *have*, purely by the way they
operate, to be the most effective way of generating the closest thing to a
truly random number, a series of which must be pattern-free, other than
'natural' patterns which will always be there to be found in data, if you
look for them hard enough ...

Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion as always, that has now
wandered far from my original thoughts. Tomorrow, the unit in question will
go back top the shop which took it in, for them to inform its owner that
sadly, it is not what they thought it was ...

Anybody wants to add any other comments to this thread, I'm happy to keep
going. Thanks all.

Arfa

Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see
their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors
or
electro-mechanical devices.


Here in the UK they are like an old oversize jukebox, the balls are
visible in the top part. We dont know what is in the bottom part. At
intervals a gate allows a ball to pop through into a chute. For all we
know, this gate only opens when the "right" ball is in the correct
position. I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the balls are
"serviced" by an electronics company. Very strange if true. Perhaps I
should have taken this to another thread or even group, sorry about
the apparent hijack Arfa. Blame Ron, HE started it!
Roy

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.


While there's no such thing as a 'United States' lottery, many of the
various states have initiated such a contest. Each administers its own
system as it sees fit. I personally am ambiguous about the idea of
government getting into the gambling business. The tickets are sold
mostly in convenience stores, which often takes the 'convenience' out of
them, when you get in line behind someone substituting the State for his
dream trip to Vegas. OTOH, my own daughter is going to college with
some of the funds thus generated.

In Tennessee, the numbers were originally generated by mechanical means,
but last year they went to a system of computer-generation. I expect a
little research would reveal several different systems.

jak

In article ,
says...
"Roy L" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Roy L" wrote in message
...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No
replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO.
Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change?
Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe
public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently
random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can
you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes
until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of
people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a
bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and
a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I
think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and
that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ...
!! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the
operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me
examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a
member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7
numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average
about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers
that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue
in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood!

Roy

LOL ! I really don't think that you would manage to get as many people
involved as would be needed to keep it 'illegally' quiet - there's always
someone with high morals and ideals. In the 14 or 15 years that it's been
running, one of them would have surfaced by now, and blown the whistle. If
spies who sign the official secrets act on threat of imprisonment are
prepared to whistle-blow, I'm sure you would not manage to keep such a fraud
on the population secret for this long, given how many people past and
present would have to be in on it.

Oh, but they have!. You think they're just another set of
conspiracy kooks. ;-)

censored stuff too rational for the Usenet

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.



That is the same with the National Lottery (nka "Lotto") machines here in
the UK. There are also about 10 or so different ones, and a similar amount
of ball sets. Both the machine and ball set are picked on the day. It used
to be done by a member of the public on the street just 'randomly' (ha!)
choosing an envelope from many, but I have no idea how they arrive at
machine and ball set these days.

Arfa

"Roy L" wrote in message
...

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.


Here in the UK they are like an old oversize jukebox, the balls are
visible in the top part. We dont know what is in the bottom part. At
intervals a gate allows a ball to pop through into a chute. For all we
know, this gate only opens when the "right" ball is in the correct
position. I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the balls are
"serviced" by an electronics company. Very strange if true. Perhaps I
should have taken this to another thread or even group, sorry about the
apparent hijack Arfa. Blame Ron, HE started it!
Roy


No probs. I think that these discussions, however loosely electronics
related, are often very interesting and sometimes enlightening. I don't
think that there is a problem with them taking place, as long as a group is
not taken over by them, by way of people starting threads that are way off
topic in the first place. I know that some people on some groups have a real
problem with it, but as long as I have been associated with this group -
which is some years now - it has always taken place, and as long as it stays
in one thread at a time, I don't see it as a problem. I think it is just the
equivalent of a bunch of like-minded engineers having a natter over a pint
at the pub, and shows that we are not just nerdy electronic engineering
computer freaks, but have other interests as well. :-)

Arfa

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.


While there's no such thing as a 'United States' lottery, many of the
various states have initiated such a contest. Each administers its own
system as it sees fit. I personally am ambiguous about the idea of
government getting into the gambling business. The tickets are sold
mostly in convenience stores, which often takes the 'convenience' out of
them, when you get in line behind someone substituting the State for his
dream trip to Vegas. OTOH, my own daughter is going to college with some
of the funds thus generated.

In Tennessee, the numbers were originally generated by mechanical means,
but last year they went to a system of computer-generation. I expect a
little research would reveal several different systems.

jak

Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an
electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of
randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation
system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to be
'in the know' about it. As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit
like you on that score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are
'given away' to good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or
whatever of the organisation. You just make your application stating what
the money is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can,
and it will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money
allocated to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't
preclude trying again, as many times as you like.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an
electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of
randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation
system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to be
'in the know' about it.

I worry about that, but then again, it's not 'my' money. I'm just not a
gambler, despite doing a fair amount of work in some of the largest
casinos in the world over the last three years: three or four weeks in
Vegas, three in Uncasville, CT (Mohegan Sun--second largest casino in
the world, and very few outside of the Northeast US have even heard of it).

As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit
like you on that score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are
'given away' to good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or
whatever of the organisation. You just make your application stating what
the money is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can,
and it will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money
allocated to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't
preclude trying again, as many times as you like.

In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships,
for which qualification is required...both initially and in order to
renew. That was the bargain the voters made with the Devil when they
approved it on a referendum. AIRC, it took an amendment to the state
constitution. FTR, I voted 'nay'. I always saw it as a tax on the
poor, although one they eagerly pay....

jak
Arfa

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:26:26 -0600, jakdedert
wrote:

In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships,

In California, the state lottery money is distributed directly to the
various state skool districts through the state bored of edukation.
http://www.calottery.com/support/lotteryfunds/

Most of the money goes to the State and local colleges.
Kindergarten - 12th Grade 80.54%
Community Colleges 13.31%
California State University System 3.74%
University of California 2.20%
Other Educational Entities 0.21%
The bulk of the K12 funding goes to school districts with large
immigrant populations. The percentages seem to vary each year
depending mostly on the success or failure of various skool bond
elections.

The problem is that for every dollar contributed by the lottery, the
state redirects some of the budgeted educational funds for other
purposes. It's a net win for the skools, but not as much as it would
be if the state were not constantly juggling the funding. I keep
hearing horror stories of teachers buying classroom supplies with
their own money, so I know things are not working too well.

In Santa Cruz county, the state installed a central 900MHz wireless
access point on top of the 4 story county building. Various
convenience stores and gas stations all have yagis pointing to the
this access point. Saves quite a bit on telco and datacomm costs.

Personally, I'm opposed to the entire concept on ethical grounds.
However, since it seems to be a tax on the statistically challenged,
I'm not opposed to separating them from their money. I bought a few
tickets perhaps 20 years ago when the system first appeared. I lost
on all of them and have not bought a lottery ticket since then.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

Interesting that they have gone over to a computer system from an
electro-mechanical one. I wonder what the theoretical comparisons of
randomness are between them ? It seems to me that a computer generation
system would be a lot easier to fiddle, with very few people needing to
be 'in the know' about it.

I worry about that, but then again, it's not 'my' money. I'm just not a
gambler, despite doing a fair amount of work in some of the largest
casinos in the world over the last three years: three or four weeks in
Vegas, three in Uncasville, CT (Mohegan Sun--second largest casino in the
world, and very few outside of the Northeast US have even heard of it).

As far as governments getting involved, I feel a bit like you on that
score. Here in the UK, a fair amount of the takings are 'given away' to
good causes. There is no requirement of the type or size or whatever of
the organisation. You just make your application stating what the money
is wanted for, and stating your case for applying as best you can, and it
will be looked at and either accepted, and an amount of money allocated
to you, or rejected. Rejection of a specific application, doesn't
preclude trying again, as many times as you like.

In Tennessee, the money is strictly earmarked for college scholarships,
for which qualification is required...both initially and in order to
renew. That was the bargain the voters made with the Devil when they
approved it on a referendum. AIRC, it took an amendment to the state
constitution. FTR, I voted 'nay'. I always saw it as a tax on the poor,
although one they eagerly pay....

jak
Arfa

Interestingly, the phrase "Tax on the poor" is precisely the one that has
been used many times here, too ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
Interestingly, the phrase "Tax on the poor" is precisely the one that has
been used many times here, too ...

Thomas Jefferson was for the lottery, saying that it only taxes the willing.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM