A PC question.
 

This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the
UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus
A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few
occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot
up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan,
cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening
earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power
management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to
overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the
MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so
I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp
sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent
fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I wonder if you have one of those LSI do-it-all ball grid array
surface mount chips on your mobo? They have circuitry for controlling
fans etc. I have had a good number of them in laptops that give wierd
faults such as yours. It seems that sometimes the soldering of these
is not quite as good as it should be and I have repaired a few by the
judicious use of a heat gun together with a temperature probe. (Not
recommended unless you are faced with a choice of dumping it or having
a go at fixing it) You may be able to check if that is the problem by
using freezer spray.
I have seen reports of some gaming machine or other that suffers from
poor soldering of the BGA chips - there is even a video of someone
reflowing the solder using half a cat-food tin containing ingnited
alcohol stood on the offending chip on youtube or somewhere.
(Definitely NOT recommended, although it seemed to work!!).
Anyway, thats my contribution for what its worth.

A PC question.
 

On Tue, 13 May 2008 14:06:10 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

Speculating here, but if the heatsink is cool and the CPU says that
it's overheating, then you may not have gotten a good thermal bond
between the two.

Many possible causes. Might have too much thermal compound. The
heatsink could be canted at an angle where there's only a linear
contact area. Might be some foreign material between the two (cat
hairs?).

Try the clean and replace process one more time. The Arctic Silver
website has some how-to's that apply to installing CPU heatsinks
generally.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

A PC question.
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK
so I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X
MB and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few
occasions I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp
would shoot up just before it shut down. So naturally removed the
heatsink/fan, cleaned and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening
earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power
management page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient
to overheat in around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the
touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB
- and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so
I'd have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp
sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault
- as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?


I had a similar shutdown problem on an older 900Mhz Athlon,and replacing
the CPU fan solved it.
The fan still turned,but drew a lot of current,causing the shutdown.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

A PC question.
 

"R.Smith" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few
occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I wonder if you have one of those LSI do-it-all ball grid array surface
mount chips on your mobo? They have circuitry for controlling fans etc. I
have had a good number of them in laptops that give wierd faults such as
yours. It seems that sometimes the soldering of these is not quite as good
as it should be and I have repaired a few by the judicious use of a heat
gun together with a temperature probe. (Not recommended unless you are
faced with a choice of dumping it or having a go at fixing it) You may be
able to check if that is the problem by using freezer spray.
I have seen reports of some gaming machine or other that suffers from poor
soldering of the BGA chips - there is even a video of someone reflowing
the solder using half a cat-food tin containing ingnited alcohol stood on
the offending chip on youtube or somewhere. (Definitely NOT recommended,
although it seemed to work!!).
Anyway, thats my contribution for what its worth.



That will be the infamous ibook G3 logic board fault. The ATI video chips
are BGA with a poor soldering history, and sometimes the heatgun thing
works, sometimes the board is toast, likewise with professional reflowing
but with a somewhat better success rate. Whether this is a permanent fix
has not clearly been established - any disturbance of a dry joint may get it
working for a while.



Gareth.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

OK,

1. If it's a work PC meant to earn money and depreciated to nil after a
moment of time - assume it's got there now and replace it.

Or ...

There will be an ASUS three year waranty on your motherboard. Contact
the retailer?

--
Adrian C

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?



Can you disable the thermal shutdown in the BIOS?

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Rich Webb wrote:
Speculating here, but if the heatsink is cool and the CPU says that
it's overheating, then you may not have gotten a good thermal bond
between the two.

Definitely not. I'm fairly experienced at this sort of thing.

Many possible causes. Might have too much thermal compound. The
heatsink could be canted at an angle where there's only a linear
contact area. Might be some foreign material between the two (cat
hairs?).

All rather obvious, I'm afraid. But the design of the heatsink makes it
near impossible to fit incorrectly. It has over centre latches which
wouldn't work if anything was wrong. And when I have removed it, it has
needed a deal of force due to the 'sticion' caused by the air seal.

Try the clean and replace process one more time. The Arctic Silver
website has some how-to's that apply to installing CPU heatsinks
generally.

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Adrian C wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK
so I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X
MB and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

OK,

1. If it's a work PC meant to earn money and depreciated to nil after a
moment of time - assume it's got there now and replace it.

Fine. You pay for it then. ;-)

Or ...

There will be an ASUS three year waranty on your motherboard. Contact
the retailer?

It's a point. I know the CPU has a three year warranty but wasn't sure
about the MB. However, the retailer says it's obsolete, so presumably
can't be replaced by an identical one.

--
*It was all so different before everything changed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
OK,

1. If it's a work PC meant to earn money and depreciated to nil after a
moment of time - assume it's got there now and replace it.

Fine. You pay for it then. ;-)

OK, I'm planning on raiding a bank tomorrow at 10am. If you can be by
the getaway car at 10.15am, I'll be the one wearing the red Balaclava,
striped shirt and carrying a large bag labelled 'SWAG'. Our boss won't
mind if you pinch some readies from that. In fact you could also take
some readies along to my boss, and then I can step on a plane somewhere
where him and his goons can't find me...


There will be an ASUS three year waranty on your motherboard. Contact
the retailer?


It's a point. I know the CPU has a three year warranty but wasn't sure
about the MB. However, the retailer says it's obsolete, so presumably
can't be replaced by an identical one.

http://support.asus.com/repair/repair.aspx?no=201&SLanguage=en-us

Yes, the motherboard will be covered if it's a boxed retail model. Stick
to your guns with the retailer, insist they have to send it back and it
will be replaced by ASUS with like or fixed.

I've had Gigabyte motherboards repaired no issues by my fav retailer (RL
Supplies in Watford) but some others (of the box shifters mode) will
unfortunately give folks the brush-off as it's unwanted hassle for them....

--
Adrian C

A PC question.
 

Adrian C wrote:
I've had Gigabyte motherboards repaired

Grrr... I mean't sent for repair...

no issues by my fav retailer (RL
Supplies in Watford) but some others (of the box shifters mode) will
unfortunately give folks the brush-off as it's unwanted hassle for them....

--
Adrian C

A PC question.
 

Adrian C wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
OK,

1. If it's a work PC meant to earn money and depreciated to nil after
a moment of time - assume it's got there now and replace it.

Fine. You pay for it then. ;-)

OK, I'm planning on raiding a bank tomorrow at 10am. If you can be by
the getaway car at 10.15am, I'll be the one wearing the red Balaclava,
striped shirt and carrying a large bag labelled 'SWAG'. Our boss won't
mind if you pinch some readies from that. In fact you could also take
some readies along to my boss, and then I can step on a plane somewhere
where him and his goons can't find me...


There will be an ASUS three year waranty on your motherboard. Contact
the retailer?


It's a point. I know the CPU has a three year warranty but wasn't sure
about the MB. However, the retailer says it's obsolete, so presumably
can't be replaced by an identical one.

http://support.asus.com/repair/repair.aspx?no=201&SLanguage=en-us

Yes, the motherboard will be covered if it's a boxed retail model. Stick
to your guns with the retailer, insist they have to send it back and it
will be replaced by ASUS with like or fixed.

I've had Gigabyte motherboards repaired no issues by my fav retailer (RL
Supplies in Watford) but some others (of the box shifters mode) will
unfortunately give folks the brush-off as it's unwanted hassle for them....



Usually it's best to leave the retailer out of it and RMA the item back
to the manufacture directly.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

Hi Dave,

Have you tried any other temerature measurment software? I use both
"Everest Home Edition" and "Core Temp" on my Asus A8N SLI Deluxe and
A8N SLI SE based machines, and they both give identical results for temps.
Your board is just a version of mine.

I had an early shutdown problem reecently: the machine would get to
the end of populating the righthand icon bar and restart as soon as the the
F-Secure Anti-Virus software finished installing and the Windows Update icon
appeared.
This was after an earlier install of an app. so may have been a virus problem,
although the same app., after winding the system back a few days using System
Restore, and then re-installing it, has worked fine ever since. Might just be
worth a try?

Just an idea, from one RISC OS user to another.

Regards,

Sarah

A PC question.
 

have you looked for swollen caps around the processor and checked the esr of
them ?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Good observation on the CPU temp, but it might just be a red herring.
Running lots of operations in the CPU will also spike its temp, this may
just be a normal signature of the crashing code.

I'm battling one of these random problems myself. If you go to the
properties of my computer, the advanced tab and Setup button in the startup
and recovery section you can uncheck "Automatically Restart" and also make
sure it is creating a crash dump file (note the folder location). You will
now begin seeing the BSOD (blue screen of death) when you crash and you can
learn if the same operation is crashing it each time or if it truly is
random.

Find these crash dump files and use MSDEBUG. If you want to try it, just
download it from he
http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/s...86_6.8.4.0.msi

The analysis of the crash file will tell you which driver is crashing.
Running the -V command inside the result file will dump the last few lines
of code it was running and the addresses it was using. If you are lucky it
will point to a driver for a peripheral. I keep getting NTOSKRNL.sys which
is essentially the windows memory manager and is too generic to be useful.
Look up the results on the last line of the report on google for more clues.

These problems can be maddening to fix. It could be a driver compatibility
issue or a hardware failure. Months of trial and error are usually required
and even then, you may not know if or how it was repaired.

Try running in safe mode for a few days if you can tolerate it. If it
stopps crashing, this suggests a driver. You can also temporarily disable
many drivers and TSR programs from MSCONFIG (use the run command in the
start button to invoke it).

A PC question.
 

"pipedown" wrote in message
t...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)

I have a home assembled PC - about 18 months old - using an Asus A8N5X MB
and an Athlon 64 3000+ CPU. It's mainly used for semi-pro AV work.

After a year or so of faultless service, it started shutting down at
random. Would usually boot up again ok and carry on. After a few
occasions
I took to having PCProbe loaded and noticed the CPU temp would shoot up
just before it shut down. So naturally removed the heatsink/fan, cleaned
and replaced with new thermal transfer compound.

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening earlier
and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-)

I was intending to use the shotgun approach and simply replace the MB -
and possibly CPU - but it seems this design of MB is now obsolete so I'd
have to change lots of other things too.

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Good observation on the CPU temp, but it might just be a red herring.
Running lots of operations in the CPU will also spike its temp, this may
just be a normal signature of the crashing code.

I'm battling one of these random problems myself. If you go to the
properties of my computer, the advanced tab and Setup button in the
startup and recovery section you can uncheck "Automatically Restart" and
also make sure it is creating a crash dump file (note the folder
location). You will now begin seeing the BSOD (blue screen of death) when
you crash and you can learn if the same operation is crashing it each time
or if it truly is random.

Find these crash dump files and use MSDEBUG. If you want to try it, just
download it from he
http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/s...86_6.8.4.0.msi

The analysis of the crash file will tell you which driver is crashing.
Running the -V command inside the result file will dump the last few lines
of code it was running and the addresses it was using. If you are lucky
it will point to a driver for a peripheral. I keep getting NTOSKRNL.sys
which is essentially the windows memory manager and is too generic to be
useful. Look up the results on the last line of the report on google for
more clues.

These problems can be maddening to fix. It could be a driver
compatibility issue or a hardware failure. Months of trial and error are
usually required and even then, you may not know if or how it was
repaired.

Try running in safe mode for a few days if you can tolerate it. If it
stopps crashing, this suggests a driver. You can also temporarily disable
many drivers and TSR programs from MSCONFIG (use the run command in the
start button to invoke it).



FWIW, another method to separate software from hardware would be to download
and burn a Linux bootable CDROM. You can run Linux for a few days and see
if it still crashes. All the drivers will be completely different for a
different OS thus eliminating a bad windows setup in one swoop.

A PC question.
 

On Tue, 13 May 2008 14:06:10 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors (eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

So, AFAICT, your CPU's temperature is being sensed right at the die,
and involves only one additional piece of hardware, namely the
hardware monitor chip on your motherboard.

Is the CPU's Vcore voltage within spec?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Tue, 13 May 2008 14:06:10 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I've not been able to find any description of how the CPU temp sensing
works let alone any clues on fixing what must be an intermittent fault -
as I've stripped and re-assembled the entire computer, cleaned all
connectors etc, and it's fine again once more. But for how long?...

Any informed guesses?

There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors (eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Thanks very much - I couldn't find that information.

So, AFAICT, your CPU's temperature is being sensed right at the die,
and involves only one additional piece of hardware, namely the
hardware monitor chip on your motherboard.

Ok.

Is the CPU's Vcore voltage within spec?

Yes.

I decided to have one more go and cleaned the MB round and underneath the
socket, removed the socket cover and cleaned the connectors, and the CPU.
All of which I've tried before.
Assembled just the basics - HD and video card. And it worked.
Re-installed the rest of the hardware checking at each step. Still fine.
Now got it all as was - and still ok. Been on now all night - and still
fine. CPU temp is 42C while AVC is doing its routine tests.
I'm confused. Most things like a dry joint or cracked track manifest as
it warms up.

- Franc Zabkar

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
pipedown wrote:

[snip]

All was well for a month or so, then the fault started happening
earlier and earlier - sometimes before XP had loaded. The bios power
management page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient
to overheat in around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the
touch. ;-)

[snip]


Good observation on the CPU temp, but it might just be a red herring.
Running lots of operations in the CPU will also spike its temp, this may
just be a normal signature of the crashing code.

I'm battling one of these random problems myself. If you go to the
properties of my computer, the advanced tab and Setup button in the
startup and recovery section you can uncheck "Automatically Restart"
and also make sure it is creating a crash dump file (note the folder
location). You will now begin seeing the BSOD (blue screen of death)
when you crash and you can learn if the same operation is crashing it
each time or if it truly is random.

Yes - but if you read the bit of my post I've left in this was happening
sometimes before XP had loaded. Also I'd not get the 'BSOD' as the PS was
shutting the machine down completely. Sometimes pressing the power button
would start it again right away - sometimes not.

[snip]

--
*Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
nipperchipper wrote:
have you looked for swollen caps around the processor and checked the
esr of them ?

Looked, yes. But I'd really not expect this on a board so new and from a
respected maker.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Sarah E. Bailey wrote:
Have you tried any other temerature measurment software? I use both
"Everest Home Edition" and "Core Temp" on my Asus A8N SLI Deluxe and A8N
SLI SE based machines, and they both give identical results for temps.
Your board is just a version of mine.

No - just Probe and the power management page in the bios. Both report the
same thing.

I had an early shutdown problem reecently: the machine would get to the
end of populating the righthand icon bar and restart as soon as the the
F-Secure Anti-Virus software finished installing and the Windows Update
icon appeared.

Mine has always shut down after AVG free has done its checks. And the box
that tells it to do this isn't ticked. ;-)

This was after an earlier install of an app. so may have
been a virus problem, although the same app., after winding the system
back a few days using System Restore, and then re-installing it, has
worked fine ever since. Might just be worth a try?

The fact is it was shutting down before XP had even started to load sort
of eliminated that sort of software problem to me.

Just an idea, from one RISC OS user to another.

;-)

I can find my way around that ok but this new fangled Windose gets me head
scratching. I only use the PC for AV work and browsing - everything else
still RISC OS on an RPC. I was considering VRPC to get rid of some
hardware - but perhaps not. ;-)

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
This is something that seems to have defeated the best minds in the UK so
I thought I'd try here...;-)
Ah, I only saw your post in uk.d-i-y, didn't realise you'd asked
somewhere there are intelligent people as well.
--
Clint Sharp

A PC question.
 

In article AikWj.13711$6D1.5696@trndny02, James Sweet wrote:

Adrian C wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
OK,

1. If it's a work PC meant to earn money and depreciated to nil after
a moment of time - assume it's got there now and replace it.

Fine. You pay for it then. ;-)

OK, I'm planning on raiding a bank tomorrow at 10am. If you can be by
the getaway car at 10.15am, I'll be the one wearing the red Balaclava,
striped shirt and carrying a large bag labelled 'SWAG'. Our boss won't
mind if you pinch some readies from that. In fact you could also take
some readies along to my boss, and then I can step on a plane somewhere
where him and his goons can't find me...


There will be an ASUS three year waranty on your motherboard. Contact
the retailer?


It's a point. I know the CPU has a three year warranty but wasn't sure
about the MB. However, the retailer says it's obsolete, so presumably
can't be replaced by an identical one.

http://support.asus.com/repair/repair.aspx?no=201&SLanguage=en-us

Yes, the motherboard will be covered if it's a boxed retail model. Stick
to your guns with the retailer, insist they have to send it back and it
will be replaced by ASUS with like or fixed.

I've had Gigabyte motherboards repaired no issues by my fav retailer (RL
Supplies in Watford) but some others (of the box shifters mode) will
unfortunately give folks the brush-off as it's unwanted hassle for them....



Usually it's best to leave the retailer out of it and RMA the item back
to the manufacture directly.

In the UK it is the responsibility under warranty for the retailer to deal
with it. In the USA you deal directly with the manufacturer.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
GMAN wrote:
In the UK it is the responsibility under warranty for the retailer to
deal with it. In the USA you deal directly with the manufacturer.

I can just imagine the hassle with what is an intermittent fault. Nor do I
know if it's the MB or CPU which is at fault. I'm not sure I can wait for
the weeks all this would take. And the cost of the carriage back to them
probably several times...

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

Try the Memtest and drive fitness tests found here and at least rule out
flaky memory or HDD problems. Have you looked at the crash dumps yet?

http://electronet.dyndns.org/compute...de.php?id=diag




"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
GMAN wrote:
In the UK it is the responsibility under warranty for the retailer to
deal with it. In the USA you deal directly with the manufacturer.

I can just imagine the hassle with what is an intermittent fault. Nor do I
know if it's the MB or CPU which is at fault. I'm not sure I can wait for
the weeks all this would take. And the cost of the carriage back to them
probably several times...

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
pipedown wrote:
Try the Memtest and drive fitness tests found here and at least rule out
flaky memory or HDD problems. Have you looked at the crash dumps yet?

Keep saying it can happen before Windows loads.

--
*How's my driving? Call 999*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Keep saying it can happen before Windows loads.

Memtest boots and runs before Windows. Event logs are a different kettle
of fish though, if you can't get into Windows then it's a little more
difficult to get at them unless you have a second system.

FWIW, I suspect the CPU/socket or a thermal issue but that's all moot
now anyway, the system is working.

You use the system for work don't you? IMHO you would have been far
better off replacing the motherboard and CPU for the time you have spent
on it and relegating the components to a less important use. You
currently have a system that could fall over at any time with no warning
and you can't be sure you have fixed it.
--
Clint Sharp

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Clint Sharp wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Keep saying it can happen before Windows loads.

Memtest boots and runs before Windows.
Understood.
Event logs are a different kettle
of fish though, if you can't get into Windows then it's a little more
difficult to get at them unless you have a second system.

FWIW, I suspect the CPU/socket or a thermal issue but that's all moot
now anyway, the system is working.

As I said I don't think it's actually a thermal issue as the heatsink
isn't even hot when it shuts down. And it can happen so quickly after
switching on from cold that the CPU wouldn't have time to overheat.

You use the system for work don't you?

Yes - when I have a project. I'm freelance so it's not continuous work.

IMHO you would have been far better off replacing the motherboard and
CPU for the time you have spent on it and relegating the components to
a less important use.

Had I needed it at this time then that would have been my approach. And I
do have a new MB, CPU and memory standing buy - it arrived on Friday. But
it will need a complete re-install of everything so I'm putting it off
until forced. ;-)

You
currently have a system that could fall over at any time with no warning
and you can't be sure you have fixed it.

Indeed. Although it's working fine at the moment. And my experience with
PCs is that they can *all* fall over at any time. ;-)

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
As I said I don't think it's actually a thermal issue as the heatsink
isn't even hot when it shuts down. And it can happen so quickly after
switching on from cold that the CPU wouldn't have time to overheat.
You'd be amazed how quickly a modern CPU heats up, don't forget these
things are dissipating massive amounts of power given their size (some
of the Athlon XP64 chips, 90 watts for a die that's smaller than your
little fingernail), if the heatsink isn't on correctly or not making
good contact you can have an overheating chip by the time it's started
to display POST.

Interesting read;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_power_dissipation

Having said that, one of my systems occasionally shuts down because the
BIOS reports the CPU temperature as over 90C on the first power on of
the day, it's lying.

Had I needed it at this time then that would have been my approach. And I
do have a new MB, CPU and memory standing buy - it arrived on Friday. But
it will need a complete re-install of everything so I'm putting it off
until forced. ;-)
Hmm, unless your software is locked to the current system for licensing
reasons it's rarely necessary to do a full reinstall, you just need to
know how to wave the magic chicken correctly and reactivate Windows once
the new stuff is installed.
--
Clint Sharp

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Clint Sharp wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
As I said I don't think it's actually a thermal issue as the heatsink
isn't even hot when it shuts down. And it can happen so quickly after
switching on from cold that the CPU wouldn't have time to overheat.
You'd be amazed how quickly a modern CPU heats up, don't forget these
things are dissipating massive amounts of power given their size (some
of the Athlon XP64 chips, 90 watts for a die that's smaller than your
little fingernail), if the heatsink isn't on correctly or not making
good contact you can have an overheating chip by the time it's started
to display POST.

Indeed. Although mine is somewhat over an inch square. And I've not tried
running it without the heatsink.

Interesting read;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_power_dissipation

Having said that, one of my systems occasionally shuts down because the
BIOS reports the CPU temperature as over 90C on the first power on of
the day, it's lying.

That's more or less what happened to mine - as soon as I could get to the
bios and select the page from a cold start it was reading 40C or so and
rapidly climbed to over 70c and shut down.

Had I needed it at this time then that would have been my approach. And
I do have a new MB, CPU and memory standing buy - it arrived on Friday.
But it will need a complete re-install of everything so I'm putting it
off until forced. ;-)

Hmm, unless your software is locked to the current system for licensing
reasons it's rarely necessary to do a full reinstall, you just need to
know how to wave the magic chicken correctly and reactivate Windows once
the new stuff is installed.

One snag is the new MB requires different HDs. I stuck with IDE with the
old one and the new really needs RAID, since I'd want its one IDE for
other things. I suppose I could fit RAID to the old and transfer
everything? But many say a fresh install is no bad thing anyway.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Clint Sharp wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Keep saying it can happen before Windows loads.

Memtest boots and runs before Windows.
Understood.
Event logs are a different kettle
of fish though, if you can't get into Windows then it's a little more
difficult to get at them unless you have a second system.

FWIW, I suspect the CPU/socket or a thermal issue but that's all moot
now anyway, the system is working.

As I said I don't think it's actually a thermal issue as the heatsink
isn't even hot when it shuts down. And it can happen so quickly after
switching on from cold that the CPU wouldn't have time to overheat.

You use the system for work don't you?

Yes - when I have a project. I'm freelance so it's not continuous
work.

IMHO you would have been far better off replacing the motherboard and
CPU for the time you have spent on it and relegating the components
to a less important use.

Had I needed it at this time then that would have been my approach.
And I do have a new MB, CPU and memory standing buy - it arrived on
Friday. But it will need a complete re-install of everything so I'm
putting it off until forced. ;-)

You
currently have a system that could fall over at any time with no
warning and you can't be sure you have fixed it.

Indeed. Although it's working fine at the moment. And my experience
with PCs is that they can *all* fall over at any time. ;-)
Dave,
Did you try replacing the PSU ?

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

A PC question.
 

In article ,
Baron wrote:
Indeed. Although it's working fine at the moment. And my experience
with PCs is that they can *all* fall over at any time. ;-)
Dave,
Did you try replacing the PSU ?

Yes - it was my first thought.

--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Baron wrote:
Indeed. Although it's working fine at the moment. And my experience
with PCs is that they can *all* fall over at any time. ;-)
Dave,
Did you try replacing the PSU ?

Yes - it was my first thought.

Thanks ! I couldn't remember if you had or not.

I possible answer: Some time back I had problems with a machine that
kept shutting down shortly after boot. No O/S just a boot floppy.
The only clue initially was that if you restarted the machine straight
away the time to shut down got less.

It turned out that the voltage regulator for the CPU simply couldn't
hold the CPU voltage at 1.65volts and over a few seconds the voltage
rose upto 2.25volts at which point the PSU got switched off.

The cure was replacement of the six capacitors in the CPU PSU circuit.
Non were bulged or swollen, no visible signs of damage. All the caps
exhibited ESR's around 10 to 15 ohms.

However prior to its failure the machine showed symptoms similar to
yours !

HTH.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.

A PC question.
 

On Mon, 19 May 2008 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT), jango2
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Dave Plowman: "The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to
overheat
in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-) "

Franc Zabkar: "There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode
appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors
(eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor
has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Me: I vaguely recall replacing a defective temp sensing diode located
ON the motherboard. Don't remember which MB. Pull up the datasheet of
the hardware monitor and trace along to the temp sensor section. A
faulty diode or peripheral component would cause the hardware monitor
chip to report "Temp Hi" to the cpu.

Some motherboards put a temp sensor inside the CPU socket.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman: "The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat
in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-) "

Franc Zabkar: "There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode
appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors
(eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor
has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Me: Find the diode and replace it.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman: "The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to
overheat
in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-) "

Franc Zabkar: "There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode
appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors
(eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor
has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Me: I vaguely recall replacing a defective temp sensing diode located
ON the motherboard. Don't remember which MB. Pull up the datasheet of
the hardware monitor and trace along to the temp sensor section. A
faulty diode or peripheral component would cause the hardware monitor
chip to report "Temp Hi" to the cpu.

A PC question.
 

In article
,
jango2 wrote:
Dave Plowman: "The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat
in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-) "

Franc Zabkar: "There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode
appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors
(eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor
has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Me: Find the diode and replace it.

Inside the CPU? Good trick if you can do it.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

I editted my post, read again.

A PC question.
 

In article
,
jango2 wrote:
I editted my post, read again.

Didn't stop you sending the original. ;-)

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A PC question.
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
jango2 wrote:
Dave Plowman: "The bios power management
page again showed the CPU overheating - going from ambient to overheat
in
around a minute. But the heatsink was cool to the touch. ;-) "

Franc Zabkar: "There is a thermal diode on the CPU die. The diode
appears on two
pins, THERMDA and THERMDC (anode and cathode?). An external hardware
monitor chip senses the diode voltage and adds calibration factors
(eg
temperature offset) as per the CPU's Thermtrip Status Register.
Furthermore AMD's datasheet states that "if the temperature sensor
has
an ideality factor different from 1.008, a small correction to this
offset is required".

Me: Find the diode and replace it.

Inside the CPU? Good trick if you can do it.



It's part of the same die, it'd be much easier to disable it.