I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Thanks for any help.

Buck Turgidson ha escrito:
I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Thanks for any help.

Yep! You can buy a DVD recorder and use DVD-RW or DVD-RAM media with
it, and record over and over the same disc, just like a VCR tape. Also,
you can use DVD-R media, but that is a write once media.

All in all, a DVD recorder is better than a VCR.

lsmartino wrote in message
oups.com...

Buck Turgidson ha escrito:
I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad
luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Thanks for any help.

Yep! You can buy a DVD recorder and use DVD-RW or DVD-RAM media with
it, and record over and over the same disc, just like a VCR tape. Also,
you can use DVD-R media, but that is a write once media.

All in all, a DVD recorder is better than a VCR.


What would you say the number of write /read/erase cycles could you go
through before excessive dropout or whatever finally stops the repeated use
of one disc. ? How many cycles before the play quality is noticeably
downgraded but still playable . ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

N Cook ha escrito:
lsmartino wrote in message
oups.com...


Yep! You can buy a DVD recorder and use DVD-RW or DVD-RAM media with
it, and record over and over the same disc, just like a VCR tape. Also,
you can use DVD-R media, but that is a write once media.

All in all, a DVD recorder is better than a VCR.


What would you say the number of write /read/erase cycles could you go
through before excessive dropout or whatever finally stops the repeated use
of one disc. ? How many cycles before the play quality is noticeably
downgraded but still playable . ?



That´s an interesting question. I have a Panasonic DVD recorder
(DMR-ES10) since mid-2006, and i have tried it with DVD-R, DVD-RW and
DVD-RAM. This is what I have found so far:

a) DVD-R: you can write to it once, or several times in an accumulative
fashion. I mean, let´s suppose that you want to store 4 hours of video
in a disc, but you want to record half hour now, 1 hour tomorrow and so
on. You can do that until the disc is full, but you can´t erase
anything from it. I have made several recordings like that, and they
are still playable. I think it´s matter of buying good quality media.

b) DVD-RW: you can write and erase it as many times you want
theoretically, but in practice they don´t endure very well that kind
of use. Some discs had been able to sustain 100 record/play/erase
cycles. Others have failed after less than that, like 10 cycles. It
depends on the brand too. I have several Imation DVD-RW´s at hand who
have survived a lot of abuse, and I have had Maxell DVD-RW´s which
didn´t give me more than 10 record/play/erase cycles. Even I had one
who failed just after formatting it, and it became unusable, even the
computer refused to take it. I guess I had bad luck with that one and
it came defective. In any case, this is all dependant on the recorder
and the media brand used. I would expect different results with another
machine, or with different combinations of media brands and DVD
recording machines. Also I have found something interesting: there is
no gradual loss of quality after a lot of use like it happens with a
VHS tape. Instead of that the disc tend to fail completely, I mean, the
recorder can refuse to take it, or it will only reproduce it but not
record anymore, so it´s more like an all or nothing situation with
DVD-RW media. It works or it doesn´t. No middle points. I guess this
happens because it´s a digital medium.

c) DVD-RAM: the most durable of all. I bought 20 of them as soon as I
got the DVD recorder, and so far I have used just one of the discs for
time shifting. The entire disc gets formatted as much as once or twice
per week, and it´s still going strong. The plus side of using a
DVD-RAM is that you can record something, and edit it using the DVD
recorder, that´s one thing that can´t be done using a DVD-RW. The
DVD-RW only allows you to erase a full segment, ot to keep it, but you
can´t edit the segment. Also, after editing the DVD-RAM, you can
reclaim the free space left by the editing and use it to record more.
That´s something that can´t be done with a single VHS tape unless you
make a copy of the edited version. Why is this useful? If you are doing
a timer recording of a TV show, want to keep it, but also do you want
to erase the commercials. You can erase the commercial after the
recording, and also get some free space in the process. The only
disadvantage of DVD-RAM discs is that they are not playable in most DVD
players (unless they are designed to do that), while a DVD-RW can be
playable by most DVD players after finalizing the disc.

d) DVD recordable media costs at least 6 times less than comparable VHS
tapes, at least in my country, and it´s becoming more easy to obtain
than VHS tapes.

e) Overall video quality is better than the one you get of a VHS vcr
(excepting S-VHS ones), and also the sound quality is better.

Of course, a lot of the final result will depend on proper handling of
the discs. The same know handling rules for CD media applies to DVD
recordable media.

Summarizing: if you want maximum interchangeability, but don´t care
about having less read/writing cycles, use DVD-RW media. That way you
will have a disc which can be playable by almost all DVD players. If
interchangeability is not that important, then use DVD-RAM media. It
cost´s more, but is the most durable.

More info can be found he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_recordable

On 21 Jan 2007 10:32:14 -0800, "lsmartino"
wrote:



b) DVD-RW: you can write and erase it as many times you want
theoretically, but in practice they don´t endure very well that kind
of use. Some discs had been able to sustain 100 record/play/erase
cycles.

I've had good luck with DVD+RWs. I've been using the same lot of
discs for a few years and I have yet to lose one except to accidental
scratches. They even play back in most DVD players made in the last 5
years.

I don't recommend DVD recorders though. Even if the hardware is
reliable, the software which makes them work is usually crap. I have
never used a DVD recorder that worked the way it should. There are
always at least one or two "bugs" in the user interface.

They're also not as convenient to use as VCRs. You can't just pick up
a DVD and throw it in and press record. You have to turn on the TV,
wait for the DVD menu to load, then go through the menus to erase the
DVD, then wait for it to load again, then press record and 5 or 10
seconds later it actually starts recording. If the power goes out
while it's recording you'll lose the entire recording because it
didn't updated the disc menu. DVDs only hold 2 hours of good quality
video. Sure you can get 3, or 4 hours on a DVD, but it will look like
something on utube.

Andy Cuffe

Bull****. DVD recorders have NONE of the flexibility of a VCR for real
time recording. VCR: While recording a movie, If you miss Pause when the
commercial appears, you can stop the tape, rewind to before the
commercial start, and start recording when the movie starts again, sans
commercial. You absolutely cannot do this with any format of DVD. If you
miss the Pause, your screwed. Also, there is a delay, sometimes several
seconds, before recording starts on a DVD recorder when Record or Pause
is used. Makes real time recording or dubbing a tape from VCR to DVD
VERY difficult to do properly. Sure, you can record over on a DVD-RW,
but as I said, NO flexibility for editing or dubbing.
JR

lsmartino wrote:


Yep! You can buy a DVD recorder and use DVD-RW or DVD-RAM media with
it, and record over and over the same disc, just like a VCR tape. Also,
you can use DVD-R media, but that is a write once media.

All in all, a DVD recorder is better than a VCR.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

JR North ha escrito:
Bull****. DVD recorders have NONE of the flexibility of a VCR for real
time recording. VCR: While recording a movie, If you miss Pause when the
commercial appears, you can stop the tape, rewind to before the
commercial start, and start recording when the movie starts again, sans
commercial. You absolutely cannot do this with any format of DVD. If you
miss the Pause, your screwed. Also, there is a delay, sometimes several
seconds, before recording starts on a DVD recorder when Record or Pause
is used. Makes real time recording or dubbing a tape from VCR to DVD
VERY difficult to do properly. Sure, you can record over on a DVD-RW,
but as I said, NO flexibility for editing or dubbing.
JR


Nope, you are wrong. At least with Panasonic DVD recorders you can use
a DVD-RAM disc. With a DVD-RAM you edit your movie, or show, *after the
recording is made*, and you can cut any commercial or portion of the
show. And if the DVD recorder has a internal harddisk, you record the
show to the harddisk, edit it there, and then you produce the final DVD
recording after all the editing is done, without loosing any quaility.

No VCR can do that. If you don´t pause the recording live, you can´t
edit the show unless you produce a second generation copy, which will
be loosy, as it usually happens when one tries to copy anythin from an
analog format to another analog format.

I would expect that other brands of DVD recorders are able to use the
DVD-RAM discs because they are very convenient for TV show recording.

Well, for DVD recorder features to be "better" than a VCR, they should
be not only be common and standard across the range of recorder brands
and models, but intuitive as a VCR is for recording. My Sanyo DRW-500
does not do DVR-RAM. Any poor schmuck who bought one thinking they are
better than a VCR because it is "DVD" would be sorely disappointed at
the lack of aforementioned flexibility. MY Toshiba D-R4 does DVR-RAM,
but to perform as you suggest, requires not only complete familiarity
with the remote and ALL menu functions, but also laborious chaptering of
the offensive sections for deletion. Sure, you can do it, but it's not
intuitive, particularly easy, or, for that matter, doable by a large
majority of the consumer public who cannot even program the clock on
their VCR. How do you expect them to wade through the complicated menu
functions req to edit a DVD-RAM after the fact?
The video and audio quality on a DVD is "better", but that's the extent
of it.
JR


lsmartino wrote:
JR North ha escrito:

Bull****. DVD recorders have NONE of the flexibility of a VCR for real
time recording. VCR: While recording a movie, If you miss Pause when the
commercial appears, you can stop the tape, rewind to before the
commercial start, and start recording when the movie starts again, sans
commercial. You absolutely cannot do this with any format of DVD. If you
miss the Pause, your screwed. Also, there is a delay, sometimes several
seconds, before recording starts on a DVD recorder when Record or Pause
is used. Makes real time recording or dubbing a tape from VCR to DVD
VERY difficult to do properly. Sure, you can record over on a DVD-RW,
but as I said, NO flexibility for editing or dubbing.
JR



Nope, you are wrong. At least with Panasonic DVD recorders you can use
a DVD-RAM disc. With a DVD-RAM you edit your movie, or show, *after the
recording is made*, and you can cut any commercial or portion of the
show. And if the DVD recorder has a internal harddisk, you record the
show to the harddisk, edit it there, and then you produce the final DVD
recording after all the editing is done, without loosing any quaility.

No VCR can do that. If you don´t pause the recording live, you can´t
edit the show unless you produce a second generation copy, which will
be loosy, as it usually happens when one tries to copy anythin from an
analog format to another analog format.

I would expect that other brands of DVD recorders are able to use the
DVD-RAM discs because they are very convenient for TV show recording.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

JR North ha escrito:
Well, for DVD recorder features to be "better" than a VCR, they should
be not only be common and standard across the range of recorder brands
and models, but intuitive as a VCR is for recording. My Sanyo DRW-500
does not do DVR-RAM. Any poor schmuck who bought one thinking they are
better than a VCR because it is "DVD" would be sorely disappointed at
the lack of aforementioned flexibility. MY Toshiba D-R4 does DVR-RAM,
but to perform as you suggest, requires not only complete familiarity
with the remote and ALL menu functions, but also laborious chaptering of
the offensive sections for deletion. Sure, you can do it, but it's not
intuitive, particularly easy, or, for that matter, doable by a large
majority of the consumer public who cannot even program the clock on
their VCR. How do you expect them to wade through the complicated menu
functions req to edit a DVD-RAM after the fact?
The video and audio quality on a DVD is "better", but that's the extent
of it.
JR



I agree that right now there is a lack of standardization, but in the
end there will be a standard. DVD Recorders have a long way to mature,
but the basic technollogy is very promising. VCR recorders also took
several years to mature as the final product we all knew. For my
personal tastes, I prefer a DVD recorder over any VCR... even after
having had in the past several models and VCR formats, including Beta.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...
I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Thanks for any help.


Probably but a unit with a hard drive would be a big improvement. Been using
computers with tuner cards for ~10 years. Comparing a DVR to a VCR or
recording to a disc is like comparing a typewriter to a word processor. Once
you've paused live TV there's no going back.

I agree about the fee though.

Probably but a unit with a hard drive would be a big improvement. Been
using
computers with tuner cards for ~10 years. Comparing a DVR to a VCR or
recording to a disc is like comparing a typewriter to a word processor.
Once
you've paused live TV there's no going back.

I agree about the fee though.

I have a TV card in my PC. But I don't think I can FF or Revwind through
the show. Plus, I have to sit and watch it on the monitor, which is not
very comfortable.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...

I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Try news:alt.dvd.video

Don't expect long life out of the DVDRWs in one of these. They are trouble.

"Homer J Simpson" wrote in message
news:PLRsh.173470$YV4.16012@edtnps89...

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...

I am not very tech savvy and up on the latest stuff. I have had bad luck
with VCRs lately, and am too cheap to pay the monthly Tivo fee. Do DVD
recorders allow a DVD to be re-written over and over like a video tape?
Are they are viable replacement for a VCR?

Try news:alt.dvd.video

Don't expect long life out of the DVDRWs in one of these. They are
trouble.


Based on the amount of these that I see for repair - probably 8-10 a week on
average - I would have to say that they are the most unreliable piece of
consumer technology to come out in the last 30 years. They can be very picky
about what media they work reliably with, and even which make. They suffer
all sorts of software upgrade problems, and the sorts of faults where you
think that the owner is mad or doing something wrong. For instance, I
currently have one in where on some commercially pressed discs, you can't
turn the subtitles off - others it's fine. I have another where timed
recordings just won't happen. These are both big-name machines. In fact,
I've found that some of the longest lived ones are actually the cheapo
supermarket specials, although these tend to have poorly made power
supplies, and you've got bulging caps on your hands after 12 months.

Another problem that you may have is that if it does go wrong out of
warranty, you won't have much luck taking it to your friendly neighbourhood
repair shop. The manufacturers are *very* anal about who they supply service
info and spares to for this equipment - particularly so, Panasonic.

All in all, I don't believe that this technology will replace the humble VCR
for long. HDD recorders are far better at replacing - and indeed improving
upon - the functionality of a VCR. My HDD recorder is built into my sat box,
and has proved totally reliable at its job. My recommendation to anyone
wanting to invest in a new recorder, would be to spend a little bit more,
and get a HDD recorder, with a DVD recorder built in. That way, the HDD
section does all of the time shift day to day donkey work, and if you need
to get a recording physically off the HDD, you can archive it to disc via
the DVD writer.

Arfa

My recommendation to anyone
wanting to invest in a new recorder, would be to spend a little bit more,
and get a HDD recorder, with a DVD recorder built in. That way, the HDD
section does all of the time shift day to day donkey work, and if you need
to get a recording physically off the HDD, you can archive it to disc via
the DVD writer.


Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone for
whatever amount a month.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...
My recommendation to anyone
wanting to invest in a new recorder, would be to spend a little bit more,
and get a HDD recorder, with a DVD recorder built in. That way, the HDD
section does all of the time shift day to day donkey work, and if you
need to get a recording physically off the HDD, you can archive it to
disc via the DVD writer.


Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone for
whatever amount a month.

Yes indeedy. There are many makes and models with regular tuners for
terrestrial and cable transmissions. Just Google on " HDD recorder ". I'm
sure that you will find many in your locality.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone for
whatever amount a month.

Yes indeedy. There are many makes and models with regular tuners for
terrestrial and cable transmissions. Just Google on " HDD recorder ". I'm
sure that you will find many in your locality.

Still waiting for a DUAL TUNER HDD that isn't a Tivo.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...

Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone for
whatever amount a month.

Search for (build your own pvr).

Also see http://www.byopvr.com/

Buck Turgidson wrote:
My recommendation to anyone
wanting to invest in a new recorder, would be to spend a little
bit more,
and get a HDD recorder, with a DVD recorder built in. That way,
the HDD
section does all of the time shift day to day donkey work, and if
you need
to get a recording physically off the HDD, you can archive it to
disc via
the DVD writer.


Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to
Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone
for
whatever amount a month.

Yep, got one running right now recording '24' in HD to be watched
later. It's using an ATI HDTV Wonder (got 3 of them). The MPEG files
can be played across the network in real time in HD. The 'main'
computer is the one connected to the DLP set via DVI. BUT, this rig
only records Over The AIr (free) HD / SD digital TV. The computers are
not anything special. 2 Athlon XP 3200s on Gigabyte with nVidia chipset
boards. The first DVR was a Sempron 2500 with 512 meg RAM which worked
just fine. You want big disc drives for this. I wouldn't bother with
120 gig as an hour of HD (19 megabit) will use 8 gigs.

There are many tuner cards available from PCI to USB. If you haven't
tried DTV yet, you're in for a treat.

GG

You can use a Tivo without a monthly fee. The money buys the
directory service and other special features. If you're willing
to use it like a VCR -- by entering start/stop times and channels --
then you don't have to pay a fee.

Buck Turgidson wrote:

Can you buy an HDD recorder that doesn't require a monthly fee to Tivo or
the like? I just don't like the idea of being beholden to someone for
whatever amount a month.

Arfa Daily wrote:

Based on the amount of these that I see for repair - probably 8-10 a week on
average - I would have to say that they are the most unreliable piece of
consumer technology to come out in the last 30 years. They can be very picky
about what media they work reliably with, and even which make. They suffer
all sorts of software upgrade problems, and the sorts of faults where you
think that the owner is mad or doing something wrong.

couldn't agree more.

(caution -soapbox comes out....)So much for technological 'progress'.
I'm growing to hate optical media in general and dvd-rws especially.
Sad thing is, if the manufacturers had perhaps spent a little more on
critical components and made an effort designing units with decent
airflow, my workshop wouldn't be full of stacks of carcasses of those
things. optical media plus cost cutting nature of today's consumer
electronics= bad news.

I also agree with the 'all or nothing' nature of optical media
mentioned by another poster, making it a poor choice for archiving as
recovery is so hard. Not only that, but even those 'obsolete' tapes
the retailers are telling us must be dumped in favour of this optical
crap seem to survive better - I have cd-rs burned about 6 years ago ,
stored carefully and now unreadable. I have tapes, some even from the
1950s, all of which (barring the acetate based ones) ) play perfectly.
Ok, maybe I was lucky, but to my mind if something such as dvd-rw or
cd-rw is so new and hailed as a technological advance, it should not
fail so often and so soon, as this makes a mockery of the whole
format's claims.

rant off now ;-)
-B.