Does price matter anymore?
 

In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used electronics
has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing is selling anymore.
I'm going to lower my prices even more in an attempt to get rid of my stock,
but it occurred to me that maybe it doesn't really matter. Perhaps consumers
are so determined to buy new, that they'll ignore even the best bargains on
used electronics. A fellow tech I recently talked to, is now trying to sell
off his 27" stereo sets for just $75 - and he still can't get rid of them.
Even folks at charities like the Salvation Army are getting picky about the
sets they take FOR FREE. Well, at least there's one guy who will always take
my stuff - he comes by once a week with his big white truck.....
I thought things were bad last year, but it seems like the writing is
really on the wall now. Oh for another job, so I could just dump my stuff
and move on to something better.

--
To reply via Email, remove NOSPAM from the address

Does price matter anymore?
 

Yup people don't even take their old sets to have them looked at
anymore. Which is great for a curb scavenger with a bit of techinal
know how. I have a 25'' zenith with remote that I fixed some bad
solider joints in the tuner. I'm trying to sell for $50 I've only had
one call and it's in the paper now. I couldn't tell you how many TV's,
Pc's, PC moniters, and stereos I have found by the curb that were 5
minute fixes. I once found a set of AR 2X speakers that were perfect
except for dirty pots, needless to say they are staying in my
collection. I once got a 17'' PC moniter that the only thing wrong
with it it needed a focus adjustment. It's still as good as a new one
and thats been close to 2 years ago. It's really sad now a days we all
know the stuff they bought to replace the stuff we've ressurected won't
last half as long and have the build quality of the stuff they threw
out.

Regards,
Chance

Does price matter anymore?
 

a new one
and thats been close to 2 years ago. It's really sad now a days we all
know the stuff they bought to replace the stuff we've ressurected won't
last half as long and have the build quality of the stuff they threw
out.

I sometimes wonder if that's actually part of the reason people buy new
stuff. Think about it; in this day and age, people don't want to commit to
anything - a job, a car, a religion, or even a marriage - so why would they
want to commit their TV stand to the same set for 15 or 20 years? Like so
many things in life, people want something they can acquire easily, have
some fun with for a while, and then dump when they get tired of it.
Commitment has become a dirty word to todays hedonists - and someday they're
going to be very sorry. And the only sympathy they'll get from me is an "I
told you so".

Does price matter anymore?
 

Chris F. wrote:
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used
electronics has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing

The cost of replacement parts exceeds the value of the equipment in many
cases.

I'm throwing away a perfectly usable 300w APC UPS because the cost of a
new battery (yes, even on eBay) is greater than what it costs me to buy
a new UPS at Staples.

Does price matter anymore?
 

I'd sell the ups on ebay or use it for a 12v inverter

- Mike

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
Chris F. wrote:
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used
electronics has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing

The cost of replacement parts exceeds the value of the equipment in many
cases.

I'm throwing away a perfectly usable 300w APC UPS because the cost of a
new battery (yes, even on eBay) is greater than what it costs me to buy
a new UPS at Staples.

Does price matter anymore?
 

"Chris F." wrote in message
...
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used electronics
has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing is selling
anymore. I'm going to lower my prices even more in an attempt to get rid
of my stock, but it occurred to me that maybe it doesn't really matter.
Perhaps consumers are so determined to buy new, that they'll ignore even
the best bargains on used electronics. A fellow tech I recently talked to,
is now trying to sell off his 27" stereo sets for just $75 - and he still
can't get rid of them. Even folks at charities like the Salvation Army are
getting picky about the sets they take FOR FREE. Well, at least there's
one guy who will always take my stuff - he comes by once a week with his
big white truck.....
I thought things were bad last year, but it seems like the writing is
really on the wall now. Oh for another job, so I could just dump my stuff
and move on to something better.

Then again, why put even $75 into an old NTSC TV when the set won't even be
able to receive NTSC broadcasts a couple years from now? When their old set
dies, they're putting that $75 into the new HDTV flat panel they already
wanted. As for the Salvation Army, perhaps they're concerned about
incurring disposal fees for old unsold units that crap out before they can
move them.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Michael Kennedy wrote:
I'd sell the ups on ebay or use it for a 12v inverter

- Mike

Actually Mike the inverter idea is a really good one!. Although I
recognized that the battery is a 12V 7AH gel cel it hadn't sunk in that
all I need is a cigarette lighter cord out of my junk box and I'll have
some emergency power. Not much power of course, but better than nothing
should the hurricanes hit us again this year.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Only one problem with that idea....... every APC UPS I've seen must be
connected to a 120V source to start up - you can't start them from the 12V
battery alone. So unless you have a normal inverter to start it with, it's
pretty much useless in a power outage.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
Michael Kennedy wrote:
I'd sell the ups on ebay or use it for a 12v inverter

- Mike

Actually Mike the inverter idea is a really good one!. Although I
recognized that the battery is a 12V 7AH gel cel it hadn't sunk in that
all I need is a cigarette lighter cord out of my junk box and I'll have
some emergency power. Not much power of course, but better than nothing
should the hurricanes hit us again this year.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Then again, why put even $75 into an old NTSC TV when the set won't even
be able to receive NTSC broadcasts a couple years from
now? When their old set

A set made in 2004 is considered old? If that's the case, I should donate
most of my stock to the nearest museum.

dies, they're putting that $75 into the new HDTV flat panel they already
wanted. As for the Salvation Army, perhaps they're concerned about
incurring disposal fees for old unsold units that crap out before they can
move them.

Yeah, they've been predicting the death of NTSC for years now, in fact it
was supposed to have been phased out at least 6 years ago. I think it's
pointless to push everything towards HDTV; like Andy Rooney said, what's the
point of a better delivery system, if there's nothing on worth watching?
There will long be a demand for NTSC sets, as long as people hang on to
their DVD's and VHS cassettes. I intend to keep a hoard of old NTSC stuff
long after the format is gone, because I simply refuse to follow the trend.
Even if I can't watch current broadcasts anymore, like I said, there's
nothing worth watching anyway.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Chris F. wrote:
Only one problem with that idea....... every APC UPS I've seen must
be connected to a 120V source to start up - you can't start them from
the 12V battery alone. So unless you have a normal inverter to start
it with, it's pretty much useless in a power outage.

Good thing I didn't go looking for that cigaratte lighter cord yet!

Thanks for the info. I'll just put the UPS back in the junk box.

Does price matter anymore?
 

And what about AM Broadcast Band radio? Any future for that? FM also?

Goes against the grain to have to 'pay' a monthly subscription to listen to
satellite radio etc.

If some broadcaster 'wants' me to listen they can attract by making it free
for whenever, or if, I wish to turn it on!

I'll even tolerate 'some' commercials; although on TV the existing 20
minutes per half hour of programming versus 9 minutes of
announcements/commercials (not including the channels that are ALL
selling/advertising!) for which I pay either the cable or satellite company
are becoming a bore. i.e. very little on worth watching and it is constantly
interrupted by said advertising; often the same advert several times each
hour. Bah, humbug.

Less on shortwave now too!

However: One of the more interesting is that CBC (Canadian Broadcasting
Corp.) Radio One, (basically CBCs 'Home Service' for each of the regions of
this huge country, after about midnight Eastern Time, carries half hour
items from various networks around the world (in English). These typically
include Holland, Germany, Australia, BBC, Sweden, Poland and many others.
Often leave it on bedside radio at very low volume until 6.00 AM (local
time) next morning, when it reverts to local broadcasting. CBC is available
on the internet at www.cbc.ca/ which itself is a sign of the times.

Cheers.

Does price matter anymore?
 

"Chris F." wrote in message
...
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used electronics
has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing is selling
anymore. I'm going to lower my prices even more in an attempt to get rid
of my stock, but it occurred to me that maybe it doesn't really matter.
Perhaps consumers are so determined to buy new, that they'll ignore even
the best bargains on used electronics. A fellow tech I recently talked to,
is now trying to sell off his 27" stereo sets for just $75 - and he still
can't get rid of them. Even folks at charities like the Salvation Army are
getting picky about the sets they take FOR FREE. Well, at least there's
one guy who will always take my stuff - he comes by once a week with his
big white truck.....
I thought things were bad last year, but it seems like the writing is
really on the wall now. Oh for another job, so I could just dump my stuff
and move on to something better.

--
To reply via Email, remove NOSPAM from the address


Time to get into modern art. Start welding crap together. Call the shop a
gallery, bribe some local newspapers... Your message could be disposable
society... that's not cliche or anything.

-JB

Does price matter anymore?
 

Chris F. ha escrito:

Only one problem with that idea....... every APC UPS I've seen must be
connected to a 120V source to start up - you can't start them from the 12V
battery alone. So unless you have a normal inverter to start it with, it's
pretty much useless in a power outage.


Are you sure?

I have several APC UPS models which can be started from cold using the
internal battery. The models are BE500R, BK250 and BK380.

In the other hand, I have a TrippLite UPS model BC250 which cannot be
started from the battery. It should be connected to a 120VAC source
prior to startup.

Does price matter anymore?
 

I guess I haven't seen too many APC units. Those units you mentioned must be
the exception rather than the rule....

"lsmartino" wrote in message
oups.com...

Chris F. ha escrito:

Only one problem with that idea....... every APC UPS I've seen must be
connected to a 120V source to start up - you can't start them from the
12V
battery alone. So unless you have a normal inverter to start it with,
it's
pretty much useless in a power outage.


Are you sure?

I have several APC UPS models which can be started from cold using the
internal battery. The models are BE500R, BK250 and BK380.

In the other hand, I have a TrippLite UPS model BC250 which cannot be
started from the battery. It should be connected to a 120VAC source
prior to startup.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Chris F. ha escrito:

I guess I haven't seen too many APC units. Those units you mentioned must be
the exception rather than the rule....


It could be. The BE500R is a very recent model, while the others two
are a bit old... probably from year 2000 or before.

Does price matter anymore?
 

J spake thus:

"Chris F." wrote in message
...

In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used electronics
has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing is selling
anymore. I'm going to lower my prices even more in an attempt to get rid
of my stock, but it occurred to me that maybe it doesn't really matter.
Perhaps consumers are so determined to buy new, that they'll ignore even
the best bargains on used electronics. A fellow tech I recently talked to,
is now trying to sell off his 27" stereo sets for just $75 - and he still
can't get rid of them. Even folks at charities like the Salvation Army are
getting picky about the sets they take FOR FREE. Well, at least there's
one guy who will always take my stuff - he comes by once a week with his
big white truck.....

Time to get into modern art. Start welding crap together. Call the shop a
gallery, bribe some local newspapers... Your message could be disposable
society... that's not cliche or anything.

Only problem is, all this new crap is almost all plastic, so no metal to
weld to.


--
A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves.

Does price matter anymore?
 

There's a major midwestern university in my community. With lots of
students, there's lots of transient people buying and selling their
consumer electronics every semester. 27" stereo TV's are commonly
available for $ 50.

The Salvation Army and other thrift stores are much more selective
than they used to be:

* The Salvation Army used to train people in TV and appliance repair.
Those programs disappeared a few years ago. So now they require that
donations be in good working condition.

* The cost to dispose of the unsellable items is very high. The
Salvation Army pays commercial rates. Our local store gets drop
offs, and they have to dispose of at least 50% of what's left
there overnight. Just because they got it "for free" doesn't mean
it has any value.

* Wired communities have local newsgroups or craigslist that makes
it much easier to find used stuff. So there's a lot less need to
go to a shop.

Chris F. wrote:
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used electronics
has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing is selling anymore.
I'm going to lower my prices even more in an attempt to get rid of my stock,
but it occurred to me that maybe it doesn't really matter. Perhaps consumers
are so determined to buy new, that they'll ignore even the best bargains on
used electronics. A fellow tech I recently talked to, is now trying to sell
off his 27" stereo sets for just $75 - and he still can't get rid of them.
Even folks at charities like the Salvation Army are getting picky about the
sets they take FOR FREE. Well, at least there's one guy who will always take
my stuff - he comes by once a week with his big white truck.....

Does price matter anymore?
 

Yeah, I used to listen to a lot of international news and old american
Jazz on shortwave. Now there's hardly anything but high powered
christian evangelist stations.

Stan wrote:

Less on shortwave now too!

\

Does price matter anymore?
 

You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days. I'm still holding onto a handful of laserdiscs,
though, which haven't appeared on DVD yet.

Magnavox cabinets were made by Baker Furniture for a few years in the
seventies. Throw the TV away but keep the fine wood cabinet.


Franc Zabkar wrote:

IMO, items that should sell well are turntables and amps with RIAA
phono preamp stages. I'm currently converting about 300 LPs to CDA and
MP3 format. Of course, if your old equipment is anything like mine
(30+ years), you will need to lube all the pots and switches. I
suppose you could also package each stand-alone turntable with a
soundcard-ready RIAA preamp.

Another useful item may be those old furniture-style TV cabinets, eg
those made by Philips/Kriesler. Swap out the electronics and you'll
have a modern set with a vintage feel.

- Franc Zabkar

Does price matter anymore?
 

On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:21:03 -0500, Mike Berger put
finger to keyboard and composed:

You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days.

http://www.mikefs.co.uk/HBGB.html

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:21:03 -0500, Mike Berger put
finger to keyboard and composed:

You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days.

http://www.mikefs.co.uk/HBGB.html

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

somewhere I still have the 7" of 'meaningless songs'. A classic!
If I recall, it had some kind of send up of 'you should be dancin' on
the b side which was also good.

-b.

Does price matter anymore?
 

You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days.

Not all! Not by any means!

Does price matter anymore?
 

I guess I haven't seen too many APC units. Those units you mentioned must
be the exception rather than the rule....


Nope
All of the APC SmartUpses can be used without line power and the older non
smart ones that have a test button can be started without AC line power. You
just have to hit the test button and turn the power on. I used one for this
during all of the hurricanes here in Florida. I had it hooked up to 2 car
batteries and it lasted a long time.. :-)

- Mike

Does price matter anymore?
 

On Mon, 15 May 2006 20:55:16 -0400, "mc"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days.

Not all! Not by any means!

Indeed. My father could die before any of his beloved 100+ polka LPs
are re-released on CD. :-)

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Michael Kennedy wrote:
All of the APC SmartUpses can be used without line power and the
older non smart ones that have a test button can be started without
AC line power. You just have to hit the test button and turn the
power on. I used one for this during all of the hurricanes here in
Florida. I had it hooked up to 2 car batteries and it lasted a long
time.. :-)

Thanks, Mike - I'll go whip up that 12VDC power cord after all.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Ok, that's pretty unique. And I'll bet Rhino releases it sometime!

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:21:03 -0500, Mike Berger put
finger to keyboard and composed:


You'd have to have some pretty unique vinyl to need to transcribe it
these days. Even most of the really obscure music I had on LP appears
on CD these days.


http://www.mikefs.co.uk/HBGB.html

- Franc Zabkar

Does price matter anymore?
 

Travis Jordan wrote:
Thanks, Mike - I'll go whip up that 12VDC power cord after all.

And btw, if it is the type that can't be started without line power,
take some kind of a small alternator, which generates something near
120V, hook it up to the UPS - then just crank it running! Reported to
be working :-)

Does price matter anymore?
 

Mike Berger spake thus:

* The Salvation Army used to train people in TV and appliance repair.
Those programs disappeared a few years ago. So now they require that
donations be in good working condition.

When did they ever do that? My guess is never.

Maybe in some larger cities, yes. But certainly not out in the boonies.

I worked at the S.A. store in Flagstaff, Arizona in the 1980s. We
repaired NOTHING. If it wasn't saleable coming in, it got ****canned.


--
A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves.

Does price matter anymore?
 

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
Mike Berger spake thus:

* The Salvation Army used to train people in TV and appliance repair.
Those programs disappeared a few years ago. So now they require that
donations be in good working condition.

When did they ever do that? My guess is never.

Maybe in some larger cities, yes. But certainly not out in the boonies.

Depends on the disposable fees. In some cities, like a previous poster said,
they'd be charged commercial disposal fees. In the nearby city of Moncton,
NB, the commercial rates are about $75 / ton. So that averages about $3 - $5
a set, which adds up if they get several dozen duds dropped off every year
(or month).
Maybe if they started charging all consumers high disposal fees for TV's,
more people would start getting their old sets fixed. Well, that or they'd
just start dumping them in the woods..........

Does price matter anymore?
 

Then your guess is wrong.
I don't know when they STOPPED doing it, but they were still doing
it in the 70's.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Mike Berger spake thus:

* The Salvation Army used to train people in TV and appliance repair.
Those programs disappeared a few years ago. So now they require that
donations be in good working condition.


When did they ever do that? My guess is never.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Mike Berger wrote:
Then your guess is wrong.
I don't know when they STOPPED doing it, but they were still doing
it in the 70's.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Mike Berger spake thus:

* The Salvation Army used to train people in TV and appliance
repair. Those programs disappeared a few years ago. So now they
require that donations be in good working condition.


When did they ever do that? My guess is never.

Our local Salvation Army and DAV stores now only accept TV's in working
order. Not so sure about junk audio stuff.

Mark Z.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Travis Jordan wrote:

Chris F. wrote:
In the past couple of months, my already-poor sales of used
electronics has dropped right through the floor. Absolutely nothing

The cost of replacement parts exceeds the value of the equipment in many
cases.

I'm throwing away a perfectly usable 300w APC UPS because the cost of a
new battery (yes, even on eBay) is greater than what it costs me to buy
a new UPS at Staples.


"Interstate Battery" has a halfway decent price, and I can have the
distributor drop them off at a local tire shop that sells their car
batteries if I prepay. They make a delivery once a week, so its almost
as fast as mail order. I have seven here that need batteries but I only
buy them as I need them. Also if you do a search for the battery number
you might be surprised by the price of new batteries. Just make sure
they have the right sized terminals. The APC units I've got all use the
..250" Faston terminals, but some batteries come with the smaller 0.1875"
Faston terminals and won't handle the higher current.


--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

Does price matter anymore?
 

Stan wrote:

And what about AM Broadcast Band radio? Any future for that? FM also?

Goes against the grain to have to 'pay' a monthly subscription to listen to
satellite radio etc.

If some broadcaster 'wants' me to listen they can attract by making it free
for whenever, or if, I wish to turn it on!

I'll even tolerate 'some' commercials; although on TV the existing 20
minutes per half hour of programming versus 9 minutes of
announcements/commercials (not including the channels that are ALL
selling/advertising!) for which I pay either the cable or satellite company
are becoming a bore. i.e. very little on worth watching and it is constantly
interrupted by said advertising; often the same advert several times each
hour. Bah, humbug.

Less on shortwave now too!

However: One of the more interesting is that CBC (Canadian Broadcasting
Corp.) Radio One, (basically CBCs 'Home Service' for each of the regions of
this huge country, after about midnight Eastern Time, carries half hour
items from various networks around the world (in English). These typically
include Holland, Germany, Australia, BBC, Sweden, Poland and many others.
Often leave it on bedside radio at very low volume until 6.00 AM (local
time) next morning, when it reverts to local broadcasting. CBC is available
on the internet at www.cbc.ca/ which itself is a sign of the times.

Cheers.


You pay the CATV or Sat company to deliver the programming, and they
have to pay for most of what they carry.


--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

Does price matter anymore?
 

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I'm not sure which APC 300w UPS model you have, but batteries are
cheap enough if you know where to look:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bi...RE_LEADS_.html

The 12V 7AH battery for the APC BK300C is $22 delivered.

The replacement CYBERPOWER 485 VA UPS was $19.98 on sale at Staples,
including Florida's 7% sales tax the total price was $21.38. Still a
few cents cheaper, and a new, larger UPS to boot

However, I know what you mean. My favorite source of UPS's is the
battery recycling pile at the local dump. People throw away the
entire UPS rather than extract the batteries and seperate them between
batteries and scrap steel. Also, the local Batteries Plus store had a
fairly large pile of assorted UPS's with either dead or missing
batteries. They offered me a deal, where if I would purchase the
replacement batteries, they would give me the UPS. Unfortunately,
their battery prices were only a little better than a new UPS (with a
warranty), so I declined. I eventually ended up with three BackUPS
1400 UPS's without batteries. The remainder of the pile ended up in
the recyclers steel scrap as nobody else wanted took the deal.

Yep. If the battery distributiors (and their retailers) weren't so
greedy they'd have a much bigger market and there would be less waste in
this country. You'd think that someone would have figured that out by
now.

Does price matter anymore?
 

Travis Jordan wrote:
Yep. If the battery distributiors (and their retailers) weren't so
greedy they'd have a much bigger market and there would be less waste in
this country. You'd think that someone would have figured that out by
now.

Travis..... but batteries are heavy, so cost of shipping is a much
larger factor than in other products.
Regards
Lee in Toronto


Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

Does price matter anymore?
 

Lee wrote:
Travis..... but batteries are heavy, so cost of shipping is a much
larger factor than in other products.

Um, the UPC that I just bought for $20 included one of those
batteries.....and Staples shipped it for free (on my business account).
If I wanted to buy just the battery at a local store I'd be paying $35
or more.

Does price matter anymore?
 

"Travis Jordan" hath wroth:

The 12V 7AH battery for the APC BK300C is $22 delivered.

The replacement CYBERPOWER 485 VA UPS was $19.98 on sale at Staples,
including Florida's 7% sales tax the total price was $21.38. Still a
few cents cheaper, and a new, larger UPS to boot

That's not fair. You're comparing a UPS on sale with a replacement
battery that never goes on sale. The regular price for the CyberPower
485 VA is $49.95 plus tax:
| http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/st...esZip CodeAdd
If a customer dragged in a dead UPS, and I had to make the same
decision, the probability of finding a replacement UPS on sale or with
a $30 rebate is rather low. Faced with the same decision, and a
bargain replacement UPS, I probably would have bought the larger UPS.

I'm guilty of the same indiscretion. The 12V 7A replacement gel cell
I mentioned:
| http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/GC-1271
is "surplus". $10.50 plus about $8 shipping or $18.50. Not exactly a
valid comparison.

The same battery from:
| http://www.batterywholesale.com/batt...tml?prodID=547
is $15 plus shipping for a total of $22.

Yep. If the battery distributiors (and their retailers) weren't so
greedy they'd have a much bigger market and there would be less waste in
this country. You'd think that someone would have figured that out by
now.

Incidentally, 95% of all the 100 million lead-acid batteries (about 1
million tons of lead) in the US and Canada are recycled each year. The
percentage appears to be growing.

As for waste, I would like to know why a UPS that has never run off
the batteries for more than a few seconds, will kill those batteries
in 3-5 years. There's only one thing that can do that, and it's
overcharging. If the manufacturers would allow programmable recharge
rates and times, I suspect the battery consumption rate would be much
less.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Does price matter anymore?
 

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
That's not fair. You're comparing a UPS on sale with a replacement
battery that never goes on sale. The regular price for the CyberPower
485 VA is $49.95 plus tax:

Price is price. Batteries go on sale, too, but for whatever reason they
don't seem to be discounted as much as the devices that use them.

As for waste, I would like to know why a UPS that has never run off
the batteries for more than a few seconds, will kill those batteries
in 3-5 years. There's only one thing that can do that, and it's
overcharging.

Gel cells expire in a few years because the electrolyte degrades over
time... charged or not.

Does price matter anymore?
 

"Travis Jordan" hath wroth:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
That's not fair. You're comparing a UPS on sale with a replacement
battery that never goes on sale. The regular price for the CyberPower
485 VA is $49.95 plus tax:

Price is price. Batteries go on sale, too, but for whatever reason they
don't seem to be discounted as much as the devices that use them.

Agreed. Most consumers do not buy batteries over the counter. I
would not expect retail stores to even stock replacements.

As for waste, I would like to know why a UPS that has never run off
the batteries for more than a few seconds, will kill those batteries
in 3-5 years. There's only one thing that can do that, and it's
overcharging.

Gel cells expire in a few years because the electrolyte degrades over
time... charged or not.

I've never seen an expiration date or "use before xx/2007" on any gel
cells. I couldn't find any references to electrolyte degradation with
age using Google. I did find the usual references to sulfidation in
lead-acid cells caused by the crystallization of hard lead sulfate on
the electrode surfaces when left discharged for long periods. This
causes a general reduction in cell capacity followed by a possible
shorted cell if allowed to persist. Is this what you're talking
about? If so, pulse charging does a fairly decent job of preventing
sulfidation. I could not find any claims that it's a problem with a
charged battery, as I would expect to find in an operational UPS. Got
any references? This is interesting.

Incidentally, I've done moderately well recovering sulfidated gel
cells with a paint shaker. I strap the battery into the shaker and
beat it up for about 5 minutes. I sometimes have to shake it in
different orientations. The idea is to have the vibrations crack the
hard lead sulfate from the surface of the plates and hopefully
eventually fall to the bottom of the cell. The problem is that if the
lump is sufficiently large, it can short the cell if it doesn't
dislodge, sometimes resulting in a meltdown. Also, be sure to inspect
the case carefully for cracks before proceeding as spraying acid
around the shop is not a good idea.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Does price matter anymore?
 

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I've never seen an expiration date or "use before xx/2007" on any gel
cells. I couldn't find any references to electrolyte degradation with
age using Google. I did find the usual references to sulfidation in
lead-acid cells caused by the crystallization of hard lead sulfate on
the electrode surfaces when left discharged for long periods. This
causes a general reduction in cell capacity followed by a possible
shorted cell if allowed to persist. Is this what you're talking
about? If so, pulse charging does a fairly decent job of preventing
sulfidation. I could not find any claims that it's a problem with a
charged battery, as I would expect to find in an operational UPS. Got
any references? This is interesting.

http://www.mpoweruk.com/leadacid.htm

Decomposition of the Electrolyte

Cells with gelled electrolyte are prone to deterioration of the
electrolyte and unexpected failure. Such cells are commonly used for
emergency applications such as UPS back up in case of loss of mains
power. So as not to be caught unawares by an unreliable battery in an
emergency situation, it is advisable to incorporate some form of regular
self test into the battery.