I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.

The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.

Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.

try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp_agi...guid=135916291

Dave wrote:
I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.

The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.

Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.

Take a look at Agilent's web site. If I remember correctly, they put a
bunch of the stuff out in the public domain or something very close to
that. Last time I was rummaging around on their site, I saw the notice
and was impressed enough to remember it.

Bob

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:42:38 +0100, Dave wrote:

I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.

The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported. I'm
hoping to obtain a copy and was wondering where I wold stand in making
it publicly available.

Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to do this on equipment
manuals? I know there are a lot of dealers that do it, but whether or
not they pay for the privilidge I don't know.






Lots of people sell cd's of old HP and Tek manuals on ebay. And you
can buy an original 5370B manual lots of places.

That's a great counter, incidentally. I have 3 or 4 of them, a lot
older than '95 I think. It has 25 ps single-shot resolution, and the
jitter typically runs around 30 rms, a lot less than the new SRS
clone. The CPU is a an ancient nmos depletion-load 6800, and it'll
process about 2000 shots per second; the firmware must be heavy-duty
clever.

John

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old unsupported
equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

....Stepan

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.


--
Thanks,
- Win

I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
-edu wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP service manuals',
on Fri, 22 Apr 2005:

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent.

The crux is whether indeed Agilent have been habitually refusing, or
will refuse, to supply. The letter by itself is unobjectionable; someone
else should not be selling (or even providing free) a copyrighted work.

For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

All the above is totally pertinent IFFI Agilent refuse to supply.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:16:34 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
....
The crux is whether indeed Agilent have been habitually refusing, or
will refuse, to supply. The letter by itself is unobjectionable; someone
else should not be selling (or even providing free) a copyrighted work.

....
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

All the above is totally pertinent IFFI Agilent refuse to supply.

In other words, they could write Agilent and ask, "May we have permission
to offer these manuals on our site, as long as we give credit?"

Cheers!
Rich

"John Woodgate" wrote in message
...
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
-edu wrote (in
) about 'Copyright on HP service
manuals',
on Fri, 22 Apr 2005:

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent.

The crux is whether indeed Agilent have been habitually refusing, or
will refuse, to supply. The letter by itself is unobjectionable;
someone
else should not be selling (or even providing free) a copyrighted
work.

For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

All the above is totally pertinent IFFI Agilent refuse to supply.

One thought. Many of the test equipment (and manuals) were duplicated
for the miltary. One off the top of my head is the AN/USM-81 which was
the same as the Tek 541 'scope, IIRC. This may not be copyrighted, or
may have some other way of getting around the copyright laws. And many
schools, such as the military schools, published schematics to use for
training.

Also, I'm sure that some other countries had something similar, such as
when NATO or other int'l org published an equipment manual in a foreign
language. Hey, a schematic is a schematic, even if it's in French,
right? ;-))

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

"Winfield Hill" -edu wrote in
message ...
Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed.

Maybe you could start a petition from all HP enthusiasts.

I can see HP's point in that if someone puts poor-quality scans of their
manuals up, some people might think it reflects HP quality in documentation.
I'd argue anyone smart enough to need and buy HP kit would not blame HP/Ag.

HP made a good name for good kit that did a good job and price took second
place.
They were an American icon, like Harley Davison or Maglite or Leatherman.

Then some pointy haired bunch threw away the old name, diversified into new
areas, and promptly turned a steady business into instability.

Hmph.

Perhaps one could ask HP to provide the better versions, maybe donate mint
condition manuals for scanning or even original files.

It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests

On one hand they pressure people to buy new products by doing so, but as a
customer I'd be put off buying kit from a company that was so petty as to
begrudge manuals to a old customers.

Making manuals free in electronic form reduces the waste of paper and office
space, which helps everyone.

Kryten wrote:
I can see HP's point in that if someone puts poor-quality scans of
their
manuals up, some people might think it reflects HP quality in
documentation.
I'd argue anyone smart enough to need and buy HP kit would not blame
HP/Ag.

HP made a good name for good kit that did a good job and price took
second
place.
They were an American icon, like Harley Davison or Maglite or
Leatherman.

Then some pointy haired bunch threw away the old name, diversified
into new
areas, and promptly turned a steady business into instability.

Hmph.

Perhaps one could ask HP to provide the better versions, maybe donate
mint
condition manuals for scanning or even original files.

It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests

On one hand they pressure people to buy new products by doing so, but
as a
customer I'd be put off buying kit from a company that was so petty
as to
begrudge manuals to a old customers.

Making manuals free in electronic form reduces the waste of paper and
office
space, which helps everyone.

I'd like to be a bit of a contrarian here for once.

rant
The instrument manual the OP is seeking is available from several
sources. It's a little pricey, but is still a good value, and only a
small fraction of the price of a reconditioned HP 5370B.

Much of the value of an instrument is contained in its usability and
serviceability. A lot of the effort that goes into making a good
instrument _should_ be spent on the operating and service manuals. To
my experience, HP/Agilent has _always_ produced easily readable,
logically written manuals that are eminently helpful in using the
instrument.

An important point that's being neglected here is that these manuals
are intellectual property which has been copyrighted to make sure the
fruits of that work goes to the owners. This forum has many
well-respected engineers who depend, at least in part, on the residual
value of the intellectual property they have created in order to make a
living, through patents, non-disclosure agreements, and copyrights,
allowing them to sell the same art to more than one customer. I don't
believe they would be happy if the owners of the fruits of their labor
decided to bypass those patents and non-disclosure agreements in order
to swipe some of that value for themselves.

If a certain universally respected textbook of Electronics Engineering
went out of print (may that day never arrive) but was still under
copyright (under current law there will be many years to go), a teacher
who owned one text wouldn't have the right to make copies and sell them
to students. Copyright laws still apply. And whether that certain
universally respected textbook of Electronics Engineering was out of
print or not wouldn't have anything to do with implied warranties of
merchantability. The book would still have the same value.

Some thought should be given to the perceived value of making a really
excellent manual to the manufacturer as well. I'm sure one of the
reasons the engineers at HP were allowed by the bean counters to spend
so much time making top quality manuals was the expected return for
selling copies of those manuals after the sale. I've seen CDs for sale
which have scans of HP/Agilent instruments which are currently
supported or even in production, as well as the obsolete ones. If the
rules are changed to permit copying of manuals, the MBAs will have
another idiotic justification to cut the labor hours spent on making
the manual. I want and need good documentation when I specify an
instrument, so I can get the quality results I want and get the full
value of the meter. If everyone is making poor quality, minimalist
manuals (and those manufacturers know who they are -- so do we), none
of the instrument buyers are going to be happy.

Look at it this way. Let's assume the authors of that universally
respected textbook of Electronics Engineering knew that within several
years of publishing the 2nd edition, everyone would be using Xeroxes of
their text. Would they have taken the time to make the second edition
as great as it is? Or support it in s.e.d.? Would it have remained in
print as long as it has? And would they have enough motivation to
publish a 3rd edition (please -- just give me 30 seconds to cut the
check!).

Agilent has a webpage which recommends a number of resellers of
manuals, several of which have the one the OP is talking about. At
some time, Agilent may also be willing to look at selling the
documentation for obsolete and unsupported instruments in electronic
form, once good digital protection is available which prevents
unauthorized copying. When that happens, A of E will undoubtedly also
be in digital form, too. But either way, the intellectual property
belongs to the author, and should be respected whether the authors are
respected professors or a corporation.

Sorry for the loss of self-control. I've got my asbestos suit on --
let the flames begin.
/rant

Chris

On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

Shakespeare was correct ;-)

But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:
When I ran the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad ...

GenRad. No kidding? I hadn't run into a GenRad guy for many years.
Back in '76, during college break, I interviewed for a temp. technician position
at GenRad in Concord, MA. The particular dept. developed bed-of-nails-type
board testers, the brains of which were PDP (8? 10? 11?) mini's. I was
impressed by the engineers, *very* intrigued by the work, and was quite keen to
get the job but ... some to-be college senior got it.

I wound up at Data Terminal Systems (point-of-sale terminals) in Maynard (home
of DEC, coincidently). Them thar new fangled cash registers used the PPS-4 chip
set. Very sexy. Much mo' better than a mini. :-)

In article ,
says...
On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

Shakespeare was correct ;-)

But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.

HP 'scopes were the pits, but I liked their multimeters (the 3456A in
particular), pulse generators, and logic analyzers (Tek/HP 50-50 split
here). I don't remember seeing an HP 'scope in any lab around. Come
to think of it my EMI spectrum analyzer (does that count as a 'scope?)
was HP. I went HP there because the Tek didn't go nearly high enough.

--
Keith

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

[snip]

But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.

But their scopes always took a back seat to Tek, so if they didn't want
to flush money down the toilet, they would not have bothered to invest
the money to make and sell a scope that was competetive with Tek.

However I used a HP 1741 back in '79, and I thought it was a solid
scope. It was a blessing after rubbing my fingers raw from turning the
timebase and other knobs 100's of times a day on a Tek toob scope. The
HP probably saved the company tons of money on electric and air
conditioning costs by getting rid of those old Tek toob scopes, which
used a half a kilowatt of power all day long.

...Jim Thompson
--

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:


Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.


Shakespeare was correct ;-)

But I've had a bias against hp equipment for at least 30 years... a
whole lot of it was crap or became crap within one year. When I ran
the Phoenix Analog Design Center for GenRad I forbade the purchase of
hp 'scopes.

...Jim Thompson
Do not know about their scopes, but i still have an HP410C analog VOM
in excellent condition; only had to replace pass transistor in power
supply once.
I got the manual when i got the meter, so there has never been a
problem for calibration or repair.

On 22 Apr 2005 04:05:20 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless.

---
_If_ Agilent was closing them off from a solution, perhaps you'd have
a point. However, I understand that Agilent has licensed the
reproduction and sale of manuals and makes reference to those vendors
in their (Agilent's) web site, so that's hardly what I'd call "closing
them off from a solution".
---

It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

---
Blather.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:02:37 -0500, John Fields
wrote:


_If_ Agilent was closing them off from a solution, perhaps you'd have
a point. However, I understand that Agilent has licensed the
reproduction and sale of manuals and makes reference to those vendors
in their (Agilent's) web site, so that's hardly what I'd call "closing
them off from a solution".


Have they licensed reproduction of manuals? All the ones listed seem
to be the usual used manual brokers.


John

"Winfield Hill" -edu wrote in
message ...
Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.

Agreed. What is it about lawyers? These land sharks have this
mentality that if their corporation doesn't say NO to absolutely
everything - that if even one teeny-weeny yes gets out, that sheer
pandemonium will result.

As a result, counsel recommends (and usually gets their way) that any -
even the smallest - violation be immediately stopped. One example.
http://www.elvislounge.com/barrykoltnow.html It's truly shameful.


Another point. Because of corporate bullying of copyright infringement,
the price of manual often exceeds the price of the used equipment it
belongs to. So sellers buy scrap not for the value of the equipment,
but for the manuals they contain.

--
Thanks,
- Win

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests,

Well said!

Does Agilent actually make money selling these old manuals? No? They
probably have always lost money selling manuals. Accordingly, they should
be glad that somebody else wants to do it for them!

Also, their copyright might be hard to enforce if they no longer sell the
manuals themselves. No loss of market; no harm; nothing to sue for.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:03:10 -0400, the renowned "mc"
wrote:

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests,

Well said!

Does Agilent actually make money selling these old manuals? No? They
probably have always lost money selling manuals. Accordingly, they should
be glad that somebody else wants to do it for them!

Also, their copyright might be hard to enforce if they no longer sell the
manuals themselves. No loss of market; no harm; nothing to sue for.

I think you underestimate the legal mind. One could argue that the
copyright infringement unnaturally prolongs the useful life of
unsupported HP/Agilent instruments, thus reducing the overall market
for new instruments. It's perhaps possible to dig up figures that
would support a cost to Agilent of x% of a new instrument for every
instance of infringement.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment is
a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.

Joe

Winfield Hill wrote:

Stepan, wrote...


HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf



I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

That letter from Agilent's counsel is going to bring a massive
response from me as director of a Harvard University research
laboratory, directed to the relevant authorities at Agilent to
get the policy changed. It's dramatically counter-productive to
their own business interests, and it's manifestly unfair to the
owners of old HP / Agilent equipment who for one reason or another
no longer have an operating or service manual, and who cannot get
one from Agilent. For Agilent to close them off from a solution
to their problem is to render their bought and paid-for equipment
useless. It also means Agilent is capriciously denying the implied
warranty of merchantability for their older products; the product
can hardly do what it is supposed to do if the owner doesn't know
what button to push, or how to interpret the panel reading. And
it means Agilent is denying the owners' right to his own self-help
in repairing something he purchased fair and square. Moreover, it
takes a big step toward removing from the public weal the value of
old instruments, no longer manufactured, which in many cases are
not replaced by newer instruments performing the same function.





--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

The Lost Deep Thoughts By: Jack Handey
Before a mad scientist goes mad, there's probably a time
when he's only partially mad. And this is the time when he's
going to throw his best parties.

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote in message
. ..
Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment
is
a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.

That sounds like Marketing-Speak to me. You can put it where the sun
don't shine.

Joe
[snip]

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:54:41 GMT, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**
wrote:

Unfortunately the restriction of documentation for obsolete equipment is
a profit motive by Agilent as it promotes the planned obsolescence of
older equipment which competes with new equipment on the market.

---
And that's a fact because...?

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Winfield Hill wrote...

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

There's good news from BAMA News, http://bama.sbc.edu/news.htm
"HP Manuals Will Return to BAMA. A license has been granted
by Agilent to allow BAMA to carry HP manuals. The HP page will
need to be recreated and the files returned to the server. This
will take a while, but they will be back! (April 28, 2005)"


--
Thanks,
- Win

On 29 Apr 2005 11:49:51 -0700, Winfield Hill
-edu wrote:

Winfield Hill wrote...

Stepan, wrote...

HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old
unsupported equipment. Look at this:

http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf

I see the BoatAnchor Manual Archive public-service site has
complied, http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm removing masses of valuable
documentation for ancient hp instruments from public availability.

There's good news from BAMA News, http://bama.sbc.edu/news.htm
"HP Manuals Will Return to BAMA. A license has been granted
by Agilent to allow BAMA to carry HP manuals. The HP page will
need to be recreated and the files returned to the server. This
will take a while, but they will be back! (April 28, 2005)"



We should download them all and burn CDs before they change their
minds!

What I really want are the schematics for the HP9100 desktop
calculator, ca 1965. I have two, both dead, and it's sad that they
won't allow anybody to get the info needed to restore these classics.

http://www.classiccmp.org/calcmuseum/HP9100.htm

http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/...p9100_txt.html

http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech9100.htm


It's amazing that HP actually reused the 9100 model number for some
poorly-reviewed inkjet printer/fax thing.

John

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:15:15 GMT,
wrote
in Msg.
HP is enforcing their copyright over manuals, even for old unsupported
equipment. Look at this:

That's sooo idiotic. Companies that don't want to host old stuff on their
websites any more should be *thankful* if others did so. They should offer
their stuff for free for anybody who would want to distribute it. Free
marketing.

--Daniel

The man who apparently convinced Tektronix to release their manuals to
the public domain, David Hopkins, has left a message on yahoo groups
offering the help of his experience...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp_agi...t/message/1129

Note also, that for HP to release these manuals to the public domain,
would be an act of charity towards third-world and developing nations,
where used test equipment can be of great service. I hope that someone
with inside knowledge of Agilent management can take this forward...

Stepan

Dave wrote:
I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.

I asked Agilent as was refused permission to put copies on the web.

BUT they said they can grant me permission to distribute (charging if I
wish) copies of manuals for obsolete equipment on CD or paper - but not
the web.

I was sent a short half-page letter, asked to fill it in, sign it, send
it back and are awaiting confirmation of permission by email.

So it is not as bad as it seems.

So anyone selling CDs on eBay can do it legally if they ask permission
first - I doubt many do.

Dave wrote:

Dave wrote:
I don't have any HP user or service manuals, but I suspect they are
copyrighted. Has anyone ever asked Agilent for permission to copy an HP
manual and put it on the web.

I asked Agilent as was refused permission to put copies on the web.

BUT they said they can grant me permission to distribute (charging if I
wish) copies of manuals for obsolete equipment on CD or paper - but not
the web.

I was sent a short half-page letter, asked to fill it in, sign it, send
it back and are awaiting confirmation of permission by email.

So it is not as bad as it seems.

So anyone selling CDs on eBay can do it legally if they ask permission
first - I doubt many do.


Did they say if you could list the files you have on a website so you
can sell or trade CDROMs?

--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

I don't think you'd have a problem with HP allowing you to have the manual
for your equipment maintenance. Publishing it on the web is rather
a stretch though.

b.

In sci.electronics.repair Dave wrote:
The manual in question (HP 5370B time interval counter) is dated 1995,
part number 05370-90031. The equipment is no longer supported.

A few observations:

- If the manual is separate from the instrument, it will get separated
from the equipment and lost. Doesn't matter if it's on paper, a CD,
a website, or whatever.

- In these latter days, memory is cheaper than dirt. Especially if
it's ROM.

- Small flash-memory drives with a USB connector are rather ubitiquous.

So... why not store the manuals INSIDE the instruments, and not have
this problem again?

Have a USB port somewhere on the instrument. Plug in a flash drive,
push a button, and get a .txt or .pdf dumped to the flash drive. A
fancy instrument could use a menu selection to dump a nice PDF from
a big ROM; an inexpensive one could use a little recessed switch on
the back panel to bit-bang a text file out the USB port with an 8051
or something. Perhaps even a serial port doing an ASCII (or Kermit
or similar) transfer for a really low-dollar solution. Instruments
fancy enough to have their own Ethernet / Web server could simply
serve documents through that interface. If they just have Ethernet
and TCP/IP, maybe a "magic packet" to a well-known port (17?) on a
non-routable IP address could trigger a manual dump via FTP.

The storage inside the instrument would need to be in ROM, or else it
will eventually get erased. If the instrument takes firmware updates,
there should be a mechanism for the updates to include addenda pages
in the manual dump, but the updates shouldn't be able to overwrite the
original manual.

This won't do a thing for all those instruments floating around out
there now. (Or maybe this has already been thought of and implemented;
I don't get to buy much brand multi-kilodollar test equipment at work.)
But if the market could agree on some kind of standard, and get the
vendors to accept it, the "missing manual" problem could be reduced
a great deal.

Matt Roberds