"D Murphy" wrote in message
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:

snip-

With all due respect for the skills and talent these folks have, most
of which I envy like you'll never know, they wouldn't last a day in an
old method machine shop, assuming they could get in to begin with.

I disagree. A skilled CNC machinist has every skill and then some that
are required to machine parts on manual equipment.

He lacks experience, which sorts them out instantly. That's what makes
skilled people. Knowing how something is done does not mean you can do it.
That's the part that separates those that can from those that can't. It was
evident in any shop I ever found employment. Ever watched someone work
that is *good*---really good? He has hands like everyone else, but how he
manages the machine and problems at hand is often far different from
others. It's not what he does, but how he does it. That is what makes
skilled people------and always has. How I wish I could say it always
will-----but CNC has changed that.

If you've had any experience in the manufacturing field from the perspective
of the guy on the machine, you know, as well as I do, that there's always
one or more "hot shots" in the shop with a reputation for having the ability
to do it right, every time. If their co-workers don't have ego problems,
they'll gladly tell you how good the other guy is------and openly admit that
they can't duplicate his/her performance. I've seen it time and again.

That being said I'll
be the first to admit that there are a lot of semi-skilled CNC
"machinists" out there. They know how to change tools, set offsets, use
an indicator, etc. They are skilled operators really. They can set up a
CNC machine and operate it, but they don't have the experience required
to process a part. I've seen these guys try to use manual machines and
frankly they scare me.

Not a fair comparison, for I was discussing "machinists", and have already
accommodated skilled CNC operators. I stand by my comments. My years
in the shop prove I'm right----but keep in mind I've been away for about 20
years now. Can't speak for what's happening today.


On the other hand there are the CNC machinists who develop the process,
figure out the work holding, select the tools and write the programs.
They could work in any "old method" shop and survive just fine. If
anything they might bring a little fresh insight with them. They are also
used to having to think about every single detail before they start
cutting a chip, a discipline that many manual machinists lack. Writing a
CNC program forces you to think about every single step on a micro level
ahead of time. If it ain't in the program the machine won't do it. CNC
machines in general move a whole lot faster, have more power, and run at
higher speeds. This forces you to consider work holding a lot more
carefully than you would have to otherwise.

Yep----that was my accommodation for the skilled guys. .

I started in the trade on manual machines at a time when only the biggest
companies had CNC. Eventually I learned CNC and wound up working as an
application engineer teaching CNC programming to people who had never
used one before. The statements I made above are very broad and general.
Certainly CNC allows you to process a part differently than you would on
manual machines.

Which, in part, is one of the reasons that a CNC operator is unlikely to be
successful on manual machines, not having experienced them beforehand. .
Not having that experience, his thoughts are often improper for the
application at hand.

For example if you are machining a part out of a block
of steel, on manual machines you might blue up the block, scribe lines,
and rough it out on a band saw. On a CNC you would hog it out right on
the machine. So a CNC guy might have to learn a few methods, but I'm sure
they would be fine. Having taught CNC, often manual machinists have to
learn trig and other new skills.

The point at hand is people transitioning from one level of technology to
the other. I've always maintained that each of us can be so trained. My
comments suggested no opportunity for that to occur. A CNC operator with
no manual experience is unlikely to land a job in a manual shop, and is even
more unlikely to be able to hold it. Not without some training. Why would
he be expected to be able to any more than a person such as myself (with NO
CNC training) be able to do the same thing in reverse? Makes no sense, and
is rather disrespectful of the skills that experienced people have in each
camp, skills that often have come at a high price.



The ongoing struggle those of us have that have worked in the trade,
especially the "old way" (sans CNC) is with people that can't
differentiate between making chips and making parts. I've witnessed
a tremendous amount of that since I began following machining forums a
few years ago. You could likely teach a monkey to turn on a machine
and start making chips----well proven by the fact that I can do it.
The problems start when you have to leave behind the item you're
striving to extract from the metal you're carving-----and only the
item----to specs.

At first glance, machining doesn't appear to be much of a challenge.
Like welding, folks get the idea that because they've burned some rod
(made some chips) that they understand the process, and the difference
between them and a guy that does it full time is they enjoy it, and
the guy that does it full time doesn't (he's likely half right).
Such people, in my opinion, are *new*, or very uninitiated. It
takes skill and experience to make parts, repetitively, to print, in a
timely fashion. There is no substitute for the skill (CNC
excepted)-----it does not come from a book, it does not come from your
best buddy-----damned few are born with it. It comes from the school
of hard knocks, with long, hard hours of getting your hands dirty, and
with proper guidance, so you use good procedures that insure a minimum
risk of scrap and injury.

Very true, but I take exception that you can't learn from a book.

Then you didn't understand my statement, or you choose to distort that which
I have so clearly stated------which is *experience* does not come from a
book. You can read a book day in and day out and have a firm understanding
of a process, but that it can come out of your hands, or not, is proven only
by doing it----and is further enhanced by doing it again and again
(experience).

I'm a strong supporter of reading technical publications. Fact is, I
learned how to refine precious metals from a book, but reading it gave
direction only----it meant little until I got my hands dirty.

By the way, that venture went on to become a viable business, from which I
retired, selling the business that I founded, quite unintentionally.

Studying from books while getting hands on experience will shorten your
learning curve more than floundering around and trying to figure out
things by trial and error. Taking night classes at a local technical
college is another great way to speed up the learning process. Often
night classes are taught by folks moonlighting from their day job in a
local factory.

If nothing else I know enough to know that I don't know everything.
Reading helps me stay current. Everyone should subscribe to trade mags,
scour libraries, and go to machine tool shows. You can learn a lot just
by reading tooling catalogs. I've attended classes at Kennametal and
Sandvik. It's time well spent. A good machinist should always be looking
to learn.


Nothing serves as a come to Jesus session better than handing an
unskilled person a print, material, no op. sheet, and point them to a
machine, and ask them to produce a given number of parts that will
pass inspection. Sorts them out right now! Like welding, you can't
fake it. You can do it-----------or you can't. Those that know
the difference can see through you with no effort. It's like playing
a piano. Almost no one does that without paying dues.

Well said.


Thanks. Just speaking the truth.

Harold