Doug Kanter wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Yes, it makes sense to not have the 4WD in theory, but even
that is arguable in areas that see much snow etc, particularly
for the sort of woman driver that drives so many of the SUVs.

You can make a case that they are quite a bit safer in those
in the worst driving conditions of snow and icy roads etc.

Skill and the correct tires trump drive train features, always.

Pity that sort of driver doesnt have those skills.

4WD does indeed make sense for THOSE drivers.

I live in the kind of climate you describe, and we see see loads of 4WD
vehicles in ditches.

Irrelevant to how many more would
be in those ditches without the 4WD.

They produce a false sense of confidence,

So does front wheel drive.

something I learned in my first half hour of driving in snow with my 4WD
pickup. That's why I feel the feature is a silly one to base a purchase on
***FOR SOME PEOPLE***.

More fool you.

If you're a half-assed driver, the feature will do very little for you in
snow.

Wrong.

And they are basically prepared to pay for that in the substantially
higher cost of the vehicle and the cost of the fuel it wastes while
ever the cost of fuel is affordible, and it obviously still is.

And that's the problem!

Nope.

***IF*** you believe that it's a useful strategy for this country to buy less
oil,

Wont have any effect on the world price of oil.

The oil producers tweak their output to match the demand.

and ***IF*** you can make a contribution in that direction, then whether you
can afford the fuel is not the issue.

Corse it is. Its that that drives the vehicle purchases, stupid.

I don't think we disagree that much.

I disagree completely on virtually everything you have said,
whether thats the design side of the vehicle and the effect on
fuel consumption, the effect of vehicle fuel efficiencys on the
world price of oil, the reason why those who buy SUVs buy
SUVs, the value of 4WD for the average unskilled vehicle
driver, the value of ads pouring scorn on SUVs, etc etc etc.

My thoughts come from lots of conversations with my grandparents, who, along
with millions of other Americans, made some significant sacrifices during
other times of shortage, such as WWII. To them, it was a very matter of fact
thing - just something did for your country.

And you wont get that effect today when
the threat to the country isnt so graphic.

WW2 had no effect on americans until after Pearl Harbour
either when even the stupidest american was brought up short.

And, it still happens today.

Not really. The reaction to 9/11 was quite different, with plenty
bitching about stuff like the Patriot Act. Nothing like that happened
after Pearl Harbour when security etc was tightened dramatically.

When we first went to Iraq, people in one of the gun newsgroups
commented that they were unable to order enough of certain rifle
ammo. Someone pointed out a news article indicating that two
manufacturers were running 3 shifts at full capacity. No big deal.
People waited a bit.

And you wont get people avoiding SUVs on the basis of YOUR
claims about the effect of those on the economics of oil imports.

Basically because you are just plain wrong on that.

The only thing that will do anything much about the consumers choosing fuel
efficient cars is to let the price of fuel increase until the cost of the
fuel has a real impact on consumer's car buying decisions.

I'm not so sure about that, but...oh well.

I am. The reality is that the north american standard of living
is so high that SUVs are completey affordible and so those
who have never been that confident of their driving abilitys
just feel safer in them, because they sit a lot higher in them.

Most do manage to work out for themselves that
vehicle accidents are by far the biggest killer in
the first world today until you get into your 80s.

That's the real problem, isn't it? People say "I don't mind the low
gas mileage on this thing I drive. I can afford the gas." In fact,
they should be saying "Indirectly, my son died in Iraq to protect
the oil supply which we wouldn't need (someday) if our dicks
weren't so wrapped up in the kinds of cars we drive".

Iraq wasnt about the price of oil.

Iraq wasn't even about Iraq, and still isn't.

Corse it isnt, it was just the latest example of
stomping on countrys you dont like the fine detail of.

It'd be interesting to know what dubya would
do if he had that decision to make again,
knowing how stupid the iraqis actually are now.

We certainly wont see an invasion of Iran, you watch.