On 26 Apr 2005 04:47:42 -0700, in uk.d-i-y wrote:

I've mostly written a cleaning FAQ, explaining the different types of
detergents and other types of cleaners. I've been wondering if its
quite DIY or not, and have reached a tentative conclusion.

Yes, certainly is for DIY, at least as we know it, Jim.
By the way, in my comments I assume the role of someone who does not
know the answer, even if I do.

First, its prime use would be household cleaning, ie not diy.
Second, cleaning is actually an important part of DIY, so it would in
fact be useful and relevant for DIY as well.

OK, time to post it and see what people think....




Detergents and Cleaners FAQ
---------------------------

Intro - what it's going to cover: Categories, composition, uses,
warnings etc. Who it's aimed at.

Detergents and soaps
--------------------


Cheapo washing up liquid: probably the fastest detergent, but the least
powerful. Removes most things, very quickly. 15p/litre. It is simply
liquid soap. Dries skin.
Will wash clothes in 2 minutes in cold water, but can not remove
everything, so not recommended for continued use.

recommended appropriate?
Keep to washing up with it? Good for cleaning oily hands. If using
proprietary 'oily hand cleaner' I use dishwasher detergent, to clean
*that* off after, finished with 'gentler' soap (if I can be bothered).

Liquid soaps: Most goods sold as liquid soaps are not, they are in
nearly every case sodium lauryl ethyl sulphate, aka sodium laureth
sulphate, a synthetic detergent. This is a nearly universal low cost
human cleaning detergent. It is mildly irritant, mildly skin drying,
very cheap to make, and although not currently receiving much
publicity, there have been concerns about its safety. Nearly all
commercial skin washes and shampoos contain it, regardless of price,
brand, marketing, etc.

safety in which way? toxic / environmental?

Too much emphasis on chemical name.

Quality washing up liquid: much better on skin than the cheapie stuff,
remove more types of dirt. But not as fast acting as the low cost soap
type.

Does quality equate to price? if not how do we tell.
I have heard it advised to use baby soaps to avoid dry skin, instead of
fancy shower liquids.

Ecover washing up liquid: much better on skin than other washing
liquids. Can strip some household paints. Non toxic. Can also be used
as body wash and shampoo: mix a very little oil in for drier skin and
hair.

Ecover??? never heard of it. What kind of oil? Are you sure its ok to
use paint stripper as a shampoo?

Washing powder: more powerful than washing liquids, effective
degreasing with hot water. More drying and irritant to skin than any
washing up liquid. Biological powders also contain enzymes to improve
their cleaning action at 40C, but the enzymes stop working at hotter
temps. Most contain various additives such as optical brighteners etc,
and powdered cardboard filler.

quote some brand names as examples (Persil...). Is it the case that
liquid ones do not have enzymes. My wife has separate enzyme stuff for
bad stains (Bio-wash or some such).

Washing powder tablets: take time to dissolve, thus give less cleaning
time than powders. Also some brands fail to dissolve, causing poor
washes and clothes with a residue of washing powder, which irritates
skin.

Could never see the point of them. What is their claim to fame?

Dishwasher detergent: most powerful detergent, requires hot water to
work, the most irritant to skin. skin contact best avoided.

3 kinds, powder (obsolescent?), liquid (nearly obsolescent?), tablets
(what are they all about!)

Dishwasher 'finishing' liquid....

Wonder / miracle / magic cleaners / stain removers: ordinary detergents
sold at steep prices.

Amusing but not strictly true. You could have a whole section on
removers for specific stains like grass, biro, rust marks.

Carpet cleaners/odour killers/ machines for...

Solvents
--------

Many solvents are volatile, flammable, explosive, toxic and/or
drug-like. Ensure good ventilation.

- white spirit: very irritant to skin, very slow to evaporate.
Dissolves un-set oil based (gloss) paints. Not very versatile.

One of my staples. Wouldn't be without it for getting rid off gooey
residues. Does have strong smell; wife makes me use it outside. Never
noticed as a severe skin irritant. Have used it to get sticky Araldite
off my hands, but always wash the spirit off after (it does pong).

- 1,1,1 trichloroethylene: aka spot dry cleaner, tippex thinner. One of
the higher cost solvents. Adequate ventilation essential. Never place
dry cleaned goods in a closed car.

1,1,1 is a bit techie. Thought it was banned now. As apprentice I had a
spell in the printed circuit shop where it was used in large open baths
to soak the 'resist' off the PCBs after exposure to UV. Must have
inhaled loads of it - health & safety made them close it down
eventually.

- alcohol: degreaser. Aka surgical spirit, rubbing alcohol, methylated
spirits.

What is the difference between these?
Meths isn't much good for degreasing, except for minute smears. It can
be used for drying things out (e.g. wet watch mechanism) as it absorbs
water.

- Isopropyl alcohol: aka isopropanl. almost identical properties to
alcohol.

Is that why its called alcohol? :-)

Screen wash, head cleaner.

- paraffin: very slow to evaporate, repels insects. Dissolves oils.

Smelly, cheap. Repels people.

Useful for blowlamps and paraffin stoves. :-)

- diesel:

Has it a cleaning use?

- acetone, aka nail varnish remover:

solvent for polyurethane(?) foam (i.e. what comes out of pressurised
cans).
Think it dissolves perspex. Nail varnish remover is diluted surely? Not
nice on skin.

- cellulose thinners: a powerful mix of solvents

Tar remover (as sold in motor accessory shops) - the only stuff I found
which, well, removes tar.

- Nitromethane: aka cyanoacrylate debonder, dissolves superglue

- nitromors: stong alkali? paint and varnish stripper

Very good at too, but very messy to use. Beware fumes.

Eats through the tin after 15 yrs (don't ask!)

- turpentine and turps substitute: gloss/eggshell/oil paint solvents

Turps burns with an amazingly smokey flame. I believe very expensive
compared to subs.

subs = white spirit?

- petrol

A cheap and much under-rated solvent for cleaning oily hands, but wash
off straight away. Somewhat flammable!! See Jizer below.

- orange solvent (?) aka sticky stuff remover (?) - is this orange oil?

Do you mean Jizer, as sold for engine cleaning? Very efficient for in
situ engine cleaning. Spray it on with garden sprayer, leave a while
then hose down (it's water soluble) perhaps with pressure washer!

- glo-fuel for model aircraft: various mixtures exist, contain methanol
and oils, toxic and explosive.

What it for apart from the obvious?

- carbon tetrachloride: powerful general purpose solvent, narcotic, now
banned from domestic use due to toxicity.

CTC used to be sold as Thawpit and Dab-it-off.

Oils
----

- Olbas oil: a solvent plant oil mixture. removes ballpoint ink, paint,
varnish, wax.

- clove oil: strips paint, irritant, use diluted

Is it recommended as a paint stripper then? dilute with what?

- penetrating oil: oil and solvent mix, sometimes frees rusted parts,
dissolves oils, dissolves bath grease, leaves oil film behind.

But not much use as a lubricant as it soon dries out

bath grease??? there are surely more appropriate bath cleaners, such as
"Jiff Bathroom Cleaner"

- WD40: a penetrating oil mix, also repels water.

Allegedly gets your car started (never seen it work tho).

Abrasives
---------

- scouring pads

- Ajax: abrasive powder and bleach, once popular as toilet cleaner

- bath brick: strong abrasive suited only to unfinished cast iron

Is that same as lava stone? If so, it's used for scrubbing hard skin off
feet.

- sand: ditto. Also blasted for paint and rust stripping

- melamine sponge, aka flash cleaning block:

- wire wool pads: suited only to unfinished cast iron, damages all
modern surfaces and finishes. Effective rust remover for cutlery, but
will scratch and mark the metal. Causes metal splinters.

Brillo pad - makes a revolting messy lather and goes rusty.

A relatively new one which we now use a lot is a scouring thing made of
a ball of stainless steel ribbon. It gets burnt-on stuff off of ovenware
and seems to do little or no damage to enamelware in the process - and
it doesn't go rusty. Never touched a brillo pad since discovering it.

- scrapers and razor blades: simple mechanical cleaners mostly used on
glass. Can permanently mark the glass. Do not use on toughened glass.

Youngsters might ask what a razor blade is, or how on earth you get them
out of the razors they use these days (electric man, meself!).

- brass wire brush: for cleaning suede and soiled clothes. Causes
damage, dont overdo it.

- steel wire brush: not for general household use.

Special short wire version for de-pinning files - essential tool.

Are we straying into Tools FAQ her? Or perhaps could have sub-heading;
Cleaning Equipment?

Will remove paint,
plaster, skin, soft mortar. A rotary wire brush in a drill is very
fast: in an angle grinder even more so.

Bleaches:
---------

Bleaches sterilise and remove the dirt's colour, but don't remove the
dirt.

i.e. dual use, cleaning and bleaching.

Chlorine bleach: the most common household bleach. Irritant to lungs,
exacerbates asthma. Contact with acids releases toxic chlorine gas.

As per warning on label - never put down loo at same time as Harpic.

Can you still get Harpic?

Discolours

err, isn't that the idea of a bleach :-)

and damages many fabrics.

Good point. Not so well known.

A mild environmental toxin. Kills
bacteria and moulds. Thick bleach is not a stronger bleach mix, it is
bleach plus detergent.

Didn't know that - wondered what was in it.

Oxygen bleach: aka hydrogen peroxide, avoids the downsides of chlorine
bleaches, and does not discolour fabrics.

So why is it called a bleach?

Oxygen bleach can be used in
laundry.

My folks used to use peroxide to free ear-wax. Probably not recommended!

Soap and sun: soaping clothes and hanging them in sunlight while wet
can bleach marks and discolouration not removed by Cl2 or O2 bleaches.
It is a slower process, taking many hours. The clothes should be kept
wet or damp.

If you are going to get so techie as to quote Cl2, you might as well say
it's the UV wot does he bleaching.

Spray and wipe cleaners:
------------------------

Quick and easy hard surface cleaners. Produce noxious fumes. What is in
them, ammonia?

I wouldn't say the ones we use produce noxious fumes. May be a bit
scented. Probably some ammonia in Windowlene. Can you still get
household ammonia?

Household ammonia used for cleaning jewellery rings I think.

Limescale removers: (from weakest to strongest)
-------------------

Citric acid: weak limescale remover. Requires boiling and long
immersion time. Only effective on thin layers of scale. Available from
any chemist.

Vinegar: good for minor descaling of hot taps. Restores shine. Heat the
tap first.

Sulphamic acid: most popular ingredient in limescale removing toilet
cleaners

Sulphuric acid: stronger but costs more

And dangerous stuff for untrained hands. (a.k.a. battery acid). Will
dissolve metal, amongst other things, and release hydrogen.

Phosphoric acid: toxic

Never seen that outside a chemi lab

Hydrochloris acid: powerful and fast, avoid contact with skin, eyes,
metal, mortars, lime paints and tile grout.

Hydrochloric. Gives off choking HCl fumes. Also dangerous.

?: where does phosphoric acid belong in this strength ranking?

Kettle Descalers - do they warrant a separate entry?

Specialist cleaners
-------------------

- wax based paint cleaners etc

You mean as in car colour restoring?

- Brick acid: aka patio cleaner. HCl acid cleaner/etcher for concrete
and brick. Eats concrete and mortar, damages brick fireskin, excellant
toilet limescale remover, dangerous to skin and eyes.

What is "brick fireskin"?

In "toilet limescale remover" I would think the specialist jell types
are better, in that they don't run straight down the pan - not tried HCl
tho.

- oxalic acid, also sold as patio cleaner: non-etching concrete and
brick cleaner. Toxic. Less powerful than the acid type, but
non-damaging.

.... to surface, not if ingested.

- fuller's earth: dry powder sometimes used to clean very delicate
items such as baby animal skin gloves. It is a dry absorbent. Some
brands of cat litter are fuller's earth.

Yes. What IS Fuller's Earth, chemically?

- vinegar: resurfaces copper, it etches the surface off, leaving fresh
clean copper.

never knew that.

The liquid runoff is toxic if eaten.

I know what a liquid lunch is, but that is a bit extreme. :-)

Diluted vinegar is
also an old favourite for cleaning glass, often applied with paper
rather than cloth.

I believe the (conductive?) 'black' in the newsprint neutralises any
static charge meaning that you don't finish up with the glass covered in
tiny dust particles. In my experience crumpled newspaper is the *only*
way of adequately cleaning glass prior to picture framing. Que 24 other
ways...

- stain devils for ballpoint ink: I had no result with it at all. Olbas
oil worked very well.

There are Stain Devils (TM, I think) for just about any stain. Meths
gets ballpoint ink off (at least when freshly marked).

- saliva: still the best cleaner for fine art oil paintings

If you have any valuable ones, don't try it at home. Picture cleaning
and restoration is a craft that takes years to learn. There is a lot
more to it than spit'n'polish.

Alkalis
-------

The stronger alkalis can cause serious eye injury. The damage takes
time to occur, so may not prompt a person to seek medical assistance.
In the worst cases blindness can result. Use eye protection.

- caustic soda: cleans ovens. Toxic, irritant, can cause serious eye
injury.

.... possibly due to the solution exploding in your face if not mixed in
the correct order? NEVER add water to the crystals, always the other
round, and a few at a time. Use rubber(?) gloves, plastic apron,
goggles. Again proprietary stuff with added 'cling' is prob more
effective.

hot caustic soda was the only thing that would shift the gunge built up
on our chip fryer, and then not entirely.

Thought drain unblocking was main domestic use for caustic soda? Don't
use aluminium utensils (or other metal except SS?)

- washing soda: degreases when used with boiling water. For clothes and
drain unblocking. The majority of drain blockages are mostly solidified
fat.

When (and why) should it be used for clothes? - also dissolves Al.

- sodium bicarbonate, aka baking soda - a mild safe alkali, with many
uses:
For brushing teeth
Removes tea and coffee stains
Reduces laundry odour: add to final rinse
Removes black scuff marks from floors
Cleans fibreglass baths

Freshens sour dishcloths: soak in water and bicarb

Our family boil em up in Persil. An overnight soak in Persil is a good
way to clean teapots.

Deodorises laundry awaiting washing: sprinkle in the basket.
Removes crayon marks: use a brush and soda paste.

Used for wiping over fridge innards. Claimed to stop odours.

Water cleaners:
---------------

My water's pretty clean already thanks :-)

Pressure washers: The pressure of these can be enough to go through
skin.
Effective on very hardy materials eg concrete or brick paths. Can
damage brickwork when used repeatedly. Can remove paint in some cases.
Good for cleaning undersides of cars etc, as long as excessive pressure
is not used. The one caveat is that water on brake pads makes them not
work. (I once got water on all 4 at once: thankfully I never got out of
the car park!)
Pressure washer FAQ link.

Steam cleaners: Effective at removing some types of dirt, ineffective
for many as well. Useful for some jobs, but not for general purpose
cleaning. Heat damages some materials, minor risk of burn injuries.

Excellent for removing nicotine stains from ceilings (once had a heavy
smoker inhabiting the room). Steam it till its dripping wet; it then
just wipes off.

More information:
-----------------

Mrs Beeton: possibly the most famous writer on this subject, she
produced a series of household guidance books a century ago, which
include a thorough section on cleaning materials and methods. Available
in any second hand book store. The materials discussed in the book are
mostly out of date, but there is lots of useful stain removal
information, and lots of cooking recipes.

Is she out of copyright now?

Remaining Questions:
--------------------
What are the many things missing from here?
More info on some of the solvents would be welcome
Where does cream cleaner fit into this list?
Where does phosphoric acid fit in the strength list?
Can pressure washers be used to dig holes in the ground?

Only if it's for a pond. :-)

General comments:

A useful and enlightening FAQ, thank you for raising your head over the
parapet.

As is, it has too many very short sentences, and some things are stated
'as a fact' with no explanation.

It's a great start, but will need the rough edges smoothed off. If
possible try to expand the punchy points into proper sentences - I know
it's a chore that takes a long time, but it will give it more credence
and be easier to follow (well that's my view). I'm off on 2 weeks hols
at the end of the week so you won't see much of me in the thread till
mid-May. Good luck with the remainder.

Phil
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