Winfield Hill wrote:
Chris wrote...
I disagree, we're not talking about manuals that can still be
purchased from HP / Agilent. (And by this I mean real manuals,
not microfiche dups that can't be used at the workbench.) We're
talking about the real shortage of manuals for old instruments,
where more manuals than instruments have been thrown away or lost.


--
Thanks,
- Win

I think I've already taken up too much of your time here. If someone
told me I could have several minutes of Mr. Hill's time to talk about
electronics, I'd be absolutely delighted. But instrument manuals would
be just about the last thing in the world I'd like to talk about.

If you would indulge me anyway, I might add a few personal
observations:

* Just for my own curiosity, I looked at the Yahoo hp_instrument user
group mentioned near the beginning of this thread, and read every post
for this month. It was kind of interesting how many posts this month
involved manual .pdfs and obtaining other non-legitimate copies of HP
manuals. So I read all the posts for the HP model numbers for every HP
instrument, scope, and add-on card where there would have been a
manual. And you know what? Every HP product mentioned in this month's
posts (a few dozen items) has the _real_ OP/SV manuals available from
the same single manual reseller recommended by HP on their website --
ManualsPlus. I didn't even have to look around. But they were selling
for a price, of course.

* Over the years, I've been in several jobs where I've been the only
one who cared about instrument manual document control, and ended up
maintaining the system myself in one case. Engineers would draw and
quarter (on your side) or tar and feather (on our side) someone from
another department who treated other company- or University-owned
engineering IP like prints or purchased software with the same disdain
almost all engineers have for instrument manuals. At best, they will
squirrel them away in their own desk or lab bench so they don't have to
go to the bother of signing them out or returning them. Usually
they'll ignore and lose them or throw them out as clutter. I guess my
personal opinion on this subject is kind of rare.

* Older instruments are generally a better value, as well as usually
being easier to use and less expensive to maintain. I try to specify
used/reconditioned instruments wherever possible, because I feel
they're generally a good deal for my employer or customer. I always
buy used for myself, because that way I can afford a better instrument.
I've specified several "orphan" (manufacturer no longer provides
service or parts, including the manuals) HP instruments, and bought
one myself for my own use. Years back, I got burned by buying a tricky
instrument from another manufacturer, then blowing a project deadline
partly because I couldn't buy, beg, borrow or steal the manual, didn't
use the instrument properly and was getting bad data. Since then, I
make sure not to buy a used instrument without the manual. And while
manual availability has affected which used instrument I chose, I've
never had to buy a new instrument because I couldn't find a used one
that would do the job and that had a manual available from somewhere.

* Let's say that I walked into a job where I was required to use a
piece of existing equipment for which I had to have the manual. Let's
also say I made a good faith effort to find the manual, and couldn't
get a legal one. Would I start scrounging around for a .pdf or other
non-legitimate copy? Sure, I would. I'm not a zealot about this.
Just like everyone else, I've got to do the job, get it done on time,
and if there's no other way, I guess I'd have to clip the coin. But
there's almost always a legal way to do it as things are set up now,
especially for orphan HP instruments. But it _does_ cost money.

* I would also concede it's likely there are many more orphaned HP
instruments out there than there are manuals. What would happen if
more engineers took the copyright law seriously as it relates to
instrument manuals? Well, first off, I suppose existing inventory on
manuals would go down and prices might go up a bit. Not as much as you
might think, because as prices go up, new instruments and other used
instruments with manuals become more attractive options. As demand
increased, suppliers would institute waiting lists, and since they
would be guaranteed fast turnaround, they would loosen their
restrictions on purchasing individual manuals, and pay more for them
(currently most of these manual resellers are miserly, and will only
buy manuals by the bale and "pay" by the ton ;-). Possibly owners of
manuals without instruments would register their copies with resellers
in case someone wanted them. More manuals would crawl out of the
woodwork as useless paper turns into potential cash. Manuals might be
rented, or offered on consignment. Engineers might even form a co-op
to rent or to minimize brokers' fees (the markup on these manuals is
extravagant). And eventually a new balance would be achieved. The new
price of the manuals would more accurately reflect their real value. I
don't think the price would be that much more than it is now, though.
And at that point, if manuals were still printed on unobtainium, we
would all have a legitimate beef against Agilent and the other
manufacturers, and I think they might then be more inclined to offer
either "book-on-demand" or high-quality Xeroxed copies of their old
manuals for a price a little higher than the asking price for used
manuals. And engineers would start getting more serious about spending
the time and effort to maintain document control on these newly
valuable books.

Sorry to bend your ear, but it's kind of a "hot button" issue for me.
I've not found it hard to comply with the law as it now stands. I just
pay for my pleasures, which is my perogative and one of the joys of the
business world. Original manuals for nearly all orphaned HP equipment
do exist out there, and paying for them is a legitimate cost. Of
course the copyright law is messed up, especially in the States. 75 to
95 years is too long for a corporation to own a copyright on anything.
But out of direct respect for the law, and indirectly out of respect
for the creator of the book, I'll try to buy the manual if it's legally
available.

Thanks again for your time.

TAANSTAAFL
Chris