mike wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

I don't feel, and I don't think that I have ever said that *all* tools
from a particular manufacturer or brand are automatically... bad.

With respect, it appears that's what you're doing he


I basically almost ignore the Power Devil, JCB ...

With respect, that is precisely what I am not doing.



I think most people with a basic grasp of English would think you're
being disingenuous there, Andy. Maybe you just have trouble admitting
when you're wrong.

In your one man crusade to win the affections of IMM, it seems to be
yourself lacking grasp in this situation. Andy has made it very clear
what factors he considers important for his tool purchases. Given those,
it seems entirely appropriate that he dismisses a large section of the
low end offings, if for no other reason than their distribution model
precludes the sort of after sales service and support that he requires.
Why is that so difficult to understand? It does not seem to be snobbery
to base your purchasing decisions on how close a fit to *your*
requirements a tool gets.

It should also be clear that Andy enjoys using fine quality tools. So do
I. There are some tools I have, that can put smile on your face every
time you pick them up and use them (and no, not from the vibration!). It
is difficult to qualify what exactly what that X factor is, but it seems
to be (to me at least) combination of good design, performance,
smoothness of operation, and quality of results achieved. Sometimes
everything about it is "right".

I guess this is no different from getting into a nice car and driving.
Yes it performs basically the same function as a fifteen year old
Escort, but the driving enjoyment is that much more.

Given that for many of us, DIY is a pastime from which we hope to draw
pleasure and to produce quality workmanship, and not just a means to an
end, or a way of saving money. It also seems reasonable that we seek out
tools that help enhance the satisfaction of the experience. In my own
personal experience, the "built to a price" mass market tools rarely if
ever give this satisfaction. It can be found in the mid range if you
choose with care, and more often can be found in the "pro" catagory.
Advice from people in this group I find helpful in making sensible
buying choices with lots of unrewarding and expensive "suck it and see"
purchases.

Nope. Opinions are from looking at the products. I couldn't find
anything that impressed me.


Oh, right. So IMM looks at a product, expresses an opinion about it and
you lambast him for being uninformed and unequipped to render a
worthwhile conclusion.

IMM gets lambasted for never having given any credible indication that
he has actually used any of the things he "recommends". Detail if
present, is never more than a rehash of a web site or sales pamphlet.
While this information _does_ have a place, and can be helpfull, it is
only as long as it is clear what the povenance of the information is.
Alas IMM in his various false identities have argued "black is white"
with such frequency it makes it difficult to accept even basic
information from him without close analysis and scruitny.

But when you do the same, we're supposed to
treat you like Moses returning with a stone tablet. I'm sure someone of
your obvious intellect knows the meaning of the word "hypocrite".

If Andy did the same, then that would be hypocritical. However I don't
feel that he does. He has a long standing history on this group of
providing detailed quality information. If he gives an opionion he is
also always ready to explain *why* he is of that opinion, withuot
resorting to IMM style "I am always right, trust me" statements.

Some people would not have noticed the problem and may even not be
unhappy with 2 degrees of error.


Exactly. So you agree with IMM that many purchasers were happy to pay
for the kudos of the brand name rather than the functionality.

No, I believe he says that for many users, a slight error may not be
critical. Much depends on the type of work you are doing.

The DeWalt jointer isn'r a top dollar product. It is mid range.


Mid-range to people who'd considering paying up to ?470 for a Lamello.
Then let's say that Dewalt is "expensive".

Biscuit jointers as a rule have not pricked the mass market awareness
bubble as yet and are still thought of as specialised tools. Very few
are at the sort of low prices common for other classes of tool. Hence
they are all to an extent "expensive".

It's a mid range tool and it is not obvious until one measures
carefully that there is an issue.


Previously, according to you, it was a basic design flaw that rendered
it virtually useless. Are you now saying you were making a fuss over
nothing? You've already admitted that many people wouldn't notice it
and, if they did, wouldn't care.

I find biscuit jointing is one fo those activities that I don't do a
large amount of, but do find it a very quick and useful technique on
some occations. Enough to warrent a dedicated tool rather than rely on
the router bit set. Hence this was an occation that I opted for a
"cheap" tool, (Ferm from Screwfix) on the grounds that it was a means to
an end, and various reports I had read suggested it was "ok". Given the
price point I was not expecting perfection. In actuality there was a
significant error in its alignment (biscuits would be 1mm nearer the
edge of the work piece on one side!) This was partly poor fence lock
design, but mostly lack of quality control in the manufacture. Hence I
sent it back for a replacement, and that one was better. However, I can
believe that for many users they would not have noticed the problem, its
significanse does depend on the type of work you are doing with it. It
also depends on you having sunk biscuits accurately in the past to
realise there is something not quite right.

There must be people on this group who've bought a Skil, Freud or Ferm
biscuit jointer and found it 90 degrees out of the box (or at least
settable to 90). You splash out on a "mid-range" tool and the best it
can manage is 88. I guess that would make some people rethink their
dogmatic attitude.

Well as highlighted, the Ferm could do 90 degrees on one axis, but sadly
failed on the latteral one!

(Personally I would not include Freud in the Ferm class, their general
standard of tool seems somewhat higher (and more expensive))

Virgin ... made sure that their supplier was more careful.


Are you sure about that?

Were you there for the face-to-face meeting where Richard Branson ripped
the guy from K-Tel a new arsehole?

You are engaging in IMM style argument "extension into absurdity". I
very much doubt Andy's shop visit made it to an agenda item at the next
Virgin board meeting, and I am sure that he is under no delusion that it
would. However, do you not suppose it likely that next time the sales
assistent flogs another CD of the same type he may not check? Or perhaps
they may even pull all incorrectly packaged ones from the shelf, given
that if they don't, it is only more hassle for them later?

I'd respectively suggest that an equally likely scenario is that, once
you'd departed the shop, the manager turned to his underlings, said
"another tosser with a bee up his ass", and they all had a hearty laugh
at your expense.

That may have been the case, does this however justify us all acting as
dumb sheep consumers? Taking whatever service the system gives out
without complaint? You may not have bothered rectifying the situation,
prefering to get shafted, but at least be greatful that some people do
take the time to highlight where there is a problem with a product or
service. It is only because of their actions that there will be an
improvement for all of us.

Nobody of sentience would base a buying decision on the whims and
recent handouts of Norm, or anybody else in a TV program for that
matter


No, but one might factor Norm's obvious craftsmanship and the respect of
his peers into one's buying decision.

A fact I am sure all the product placement and PR executives of the tool
comapanies are well aware of when making offers to the producers of such
shows...

Your point being what?

On the other hand, no-one of sentience would base their decision on the
silly, self-aggrandizing proclamations of an arrogant, hectoring windbag
who dresses up his prejudices in a veneer of pomposity and gets off on
bullying people.

True... can't think of who you had in mind though.

Personally I am quite happy to include Andy's opinions in my purchasing
decisions since they seem to closely reflect my own experiances and
those of many of the other contributors to this group for whose
experience and advice I have respect.

There are are two or three regulars, clearly impressed by your ability
to string a sentence together (even if its doesn't stand up to logical
analysis),
who'll step in to do some cheer-leading for you when you go
off on one of your regular IMM-baiting stunts, but I notice they've been

If IMM posts nonsense, Andy (and many others) will counter that with
lucid explanation of the limitations of said nonsense. Think of this a
public service to group newcomers who may not be aware of IMMs abusive
and trolling history.

If you see this as baiting, shame.

more or less absent from this exchange. One hopes they've discovered
some measure of self-respect and realised that hanging out with the
playground bully is a not a position they want to be in.

Now you are talking nonsense! (IMHO).


--
Cheers,

John.

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