"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

I agree with your comments. I would add the respect has to flow
both ways though.

Rather difficult when it goes only one way, regardless of effort. But
please read on---for there is more to this than meets the eye.


I'm at a loss to understand your position. My comments that started
this
ugly exchange are copied he

(quote one)
"Sorry, Robin. You have been misinformed. A properly set up centerless
will
yield what is, for all practical purposes, dead round parts. Only
when
they are run *on center* do they not. In fact, they are capable of very
close work, with outstanding repeatability."

I did see that comment. I also saw the later one:

(quote two)
"That smart assed punk kid needs to be taught some respect.
I've spent more hours running a centerless than that smart mouthed little
******* has been in the shop. It's plain damned amazing how someone can
work in the trade for a couple years and get so knowledgeable that they
know
all about things they've never touched. "

Yep, I said it, and under the circumstance, as I knew it, I'd say it again.
Understand that this isn't about the current thread, but about a young
person that has exercised his assumed right to never show respect to others,
at least ----not to me. If you've read the other replies, you'll see that
I'm not the only one that interpreted his comments the way I did.

You may recall my lumpy introduction to RCM many years ago----which, for
some, apparently never got any better. That gives them license to ignore
me, not to belittle me. If they choose to make what appear to be statements
displaying their contempt for me, they should expect nothing less than that
in return. However, in this instance it's entirely possible I, along with
others, may have misinterpreted comments he made, which I addressed in my
post to him earlier.

Granted in between the two, he did compare you to cliff. But honestly
the two quotes above are pretty far apart. You did not address the
second to robin true. You knew he would read it.

Just as he knew I'd read his post where it was assumed I was being compared
to Cliff.

If you can point out to me where I was not paying due respect to another,
I'd be grateful. I felt my answer to Robin was more than adequate to
dispel the notion that parts can't come out round, that the machine was
not
suited to the application. I simply stated facts, with no personal
attack
of any kind. It might not hurt for you to go back and read how that
mess
got started. If you still feel I'm the one that is responsible, please
explain it to me.

Umm. I thought things were going pretty well until he drew the
cliff-analogy. Granted that started the ball rolling. Your reply
was pretty strong - it was a bit of an eye-opener for me, I thought
when I read it there was maybe something going on back-channel between
the you and robin, or that maybe you were having a bad day otherwise.

That, in a nut shell, is it. I explained that above. Some people make
decisions and don't prefer to make another. Maybe they've not seen a good
reason to do so. I prefer to not second guess anyone's motive, but can
clearly see their attitude, and their spelling it out for me convinces me I
was reading it correctly.

You and I started out pretty lumpy, too, but each of us appear to have
managed to learn to respect the other, even when we don't agree (which,
surprisingly, isn't often).

Bad day? At my age, most of them are. Do your hands ache routinely?
(Arthritis). Vision in the toilet? Short of energy? Ringing in your
left ear, and it ain't the phone? Getting old isn't fun, Jim. Enjoy your
youth.

I've never been compared to cliff. Not sure what I would do in that
case...

Likely something like I did. None of us enjoy the suggestion that we aren't
up to much. But then, as I understand it now, I have to assume that I
was *not* compared to Cliff, and for that I offered my apology.

Granted there are few here who know as much as you do on that particular
subject. It wasn't clear to me that robin was questioning your expertise
on it as questioning the applicability in the application under question.
I will indeed have to look again at what transpired.

Perhaps you now understand that I accept responsibility for my
misunderstanding. My reaction would have been proper, in my opinion, had
it been true. For that I would not have offered an apology.

Does this all fall under the 'by the time you're old enough to know
a lot about something, that means you can react strongly to the
younger guys in the shop' rule?

Nope, and I hope you understand that I have the utmost respect for anyone
that has mastered the trade, with age making no difference. I bow to those
with skills I don't have, but I also expect the same in return. Life isn't
about everyone collecting everything they desire and not giving anything in
return. I respect you and your years of education and experience in your
chosen field. I expect that I receive the same for my meager
accomplishments.

Sometimes the younger guys know more than the more experienced hands
on some subject. Does that mean they get to react just as strongly, to
them?

Chuckle! I get your point, and I'm not sure it was ever more evident that
with the then very young Australian doctor that made the connection between
ulcers and helicobacter pylori bacterium. His experiences with the medical
profession boggle the mind, and were made even more difficult by the fact
that he was outside his field of expertise. I'd like to think I'm better
than that, Jim. I listen to and pay great respect to a friend that is
young enough to be my son, a mold maker. I also encourage and advise him
to the best of my ability. I have an ego, but try to temper it with logic,
wisdom and good sense.

What is to be respected, knowledge or wisdom? I would say both.
Grace under pressure is when the young buck kicks sand on your
shoes, and you make it clear that a) you know more about it then he
does, b) you do it in an even-handed tone, and c) he feels bad and
apologizes because you've been so nice to him.

I think c) is unlikely now.

Yeah, probably so----but it has little to do with what transpired in the
past couple days, at least as I see it. That was just the proverbial
straw. The attitude I thought existed was clearly stated. Why would
anyone show respect or attempt to rectify a misunderstanding when they have
no care, no respect, no desire? I'm OK with that. There are plenty of
skilled people that I can have an exchange with without the acrimony. It
hasn't been my practice to seek out young people for company, anyway.

Oddly I cherry-pick both your, and robin's, posts here. You for
the wisdom - long years of experience. Robin because he's one
of the posters here who is currently deep in industry, in the
machining field he's been trained for. I guess I'm really just
muddying the waters here but in my defense you did ask me
to explain my comments - I don't think that any one person
is responsible, as you say.

Not muddying the waters in my opinion, Jim. I'm one of those people that
rarely puts a problem away without a resolution. I generally like to get
things resolved and make or accept any necessary apologies. If that isn't
possible, the least that I would expect is that everyone involved at least
understands what the hell all the commotion is about. While it's unlikely
anything good came from this, perhaps you and I understand somewhat better
what really transpired, and that things are not always as they appear. I
asked for your opinion, and I got it. You delivered what I think is a fair,
level handed opinion. That's what I expected, and I thank you for it.

You two may be years apart but I suspect you closer together than
you both realize. Certainly if the two of you were put in a room
with 98 other people you would stand out as the most closely matched
in skills.

Respectfully - Jim

Interesting comment, Jim.

Harold