Doug Miller wrote:
Except then he loses out on the house, and as he said in his OP,
there
are few properties of this size and in this range available.

"Few", perhaps, but not "none". Others may be available with less
hassle, and
may be even more attractive in other respects as well. I see a buyer
in danger
of becoming obsessed with "winning" the negotiations for this house,
and
missing out on the possibility of a more suitable deal somewhere
else.

Yes, I see this too. The best advice I got while house-hunting was to
chill out, and that things happen for a reason. If one house fell
through, it just wasn't meant to be, because there was a *better* house
on the horizon. And the person who gave me this advice was correct. I
did ultimately get a better house. Took me 9 months of looking and 3
deals that fell through for various reasons. If the OP is in position
to take his time, then this might be good advice for him as well.

His original bid was $192.

Yes, but he said he *wanted* to pay 188. So he already bid 4k over
what he
wanted to pay.


I might want to pay $12 for a house. But it's not going to buy me that
house!

He calculated that he was comfortable with $192 as a starting point. If
that was his last and final offer, he'd have walked away long ago. The
seller has surely picked up on this: he has a bit more money to put
into it, and his level of interest in the house is high.


Seller came back and asked for $202,
probably hoping the buyer would meet him in the middle at $197. He
didn't. Seems to me the seller is prompting him to meet him in the
middle at $197.

I don't read it that way at all. If that's what the seller wanted to
do, why
did the seller *ignore* his bid of 195?

Could be for a variety of reasons. I suspect the seller is letting his
emotions get away with him too. The seller's agent may have been trying
to convince them to accept, but the seller was certain that if they
just gave it another weekend and open house. Or, quite likely, there
was another interested buyer eyeing the house, who hadn't yet made an
offer. The seller took a gamble that the second offer would come in. If
the seller had said "no" outright, then he's completely lost the buyer.
If the seller continued the negotiations, then if the second offer came
in during that time, he would probably be obligated to stick with his
original negotiations with the OP.

If the seller wants to meet in the
middle at 197, there is no clearer way of signalling that than to
respond to
an offer of 195 with a counteroffer at 199. Instead, the seller
ignored that
offer completely. (Yes, I know there was an oral response, but oral =

meaningless. Lack of written response = ignored completely.)

Yes, see above. Ignoring/delaying may have been a better strategy if
they had hopes of a second offer coming in.

I think the seller wants 200 at a minimum. And that's why the home's
been on
the market for over three months: the seller won't sell for less than
what he
*thinks* it's worth, and what he thinks it's worth doesn't conform to
reality.

It may not even be a matter of what he *thinks* it's worth. It may be
that he's overleveraged and he has a bottom-line minimum he MUST get
out of the deal to break even. How long has the seller owned the house?
Have you researched how much he paid for it? Has he invested a lot into
home improvements/renovations. That is good info to know.

IMO, it's too late to go back and regret his opening
bid. If he'd wanted only to pay $195, then he should've started with
an
opening bid of $190.

He *wanted* to pay 188k at the outset.

See my previous comment.

And your math doesn't add up, either. The seller was asking 205
initially; if
the buyer wanted to settle at 195, he should have offered 185.

I'm really bad at math, and it was late. Thanks for the correction. :-)

They are quibbling now over $2K.

No, they're not. The seller's "offer" of 197 is *not* in writing, and

therefore it does not exist in reality. They're still $7K apart (the
difference between the buyer's most recent *written* offer of 195,
and the
seller's most recent *written* counteroffer of 202). Oral statements
have
exactly *no* value whatever in real estate transactions. Only what's
in
writing has any dependable meaning. And I'm betting that the seller
will
*refuse* a written offer of 197.

Well, when I went through the process, it started with a written offer,
everything else was done verbally, and once a verbal agreement had been
made, we put it in writing. YMMV depending on your state.

If it were me, and I REALLY wanted
this house, I wouldn't get all bent out of shape over $2K.

As noted, nobody's getting "all bent out of shape over $2K", because
they're
*seven* thousand apart, not two.

If I were the seller, I also wouldn't get all bent out of shape over
$2K!

Again, it's 7K, not 2K, and IMO this seller is not the reasonable
individual
that you seem to be. From what the buyer has posted so far, ISTM that
the
seller is playing mind games, trying to squeeze every last nickel.

Yes, I do get the impression the seller is not handling this all that
great. Which is why I wouldn't automatically blame the agents. The
agents are only acting according to how he is instructing them to act.
For all he knows, the agents have been trying to talk sense into the
seller.

Six
months from now, once settled in the house, that $2K is going to be
a
distant memory for them both.

Agreed, if in fact the difference were only 2K. But until the seller
puts 197
in writing, they're still _at_least_7K apart. ("At least" because
both the
buyer's offer of 195, and the seller's counter at 202, have expired.
The
seller may now be looking for his full asking price of 205, and the
buyer may
be thinking of going back to his original offer of 192.)

And he's perfectly within his rights to do so. I doubt it will buy him
this house though.

If he decides to go that route, I'd cool off and let the issue sit for
several weeks. There's a risk that it'll sell to someone else in the
meantime. If he's willing to take that risk, then wait it out. The
longer it sits, the more leverage the buyer will have.

Perhaps there is a way to save the deal that would be win-win for
both:
go with the $197, but ask the seller to throw in $2K's worth of
something. Fixtures, window treatments, furniture, fireplace irons,
needed repairs, more favorable closing date, kick-back to help with
downpayment. Get creative and find a way to eek out your $2K worth
of
perceived value. Ask both agents to put their heads together to find
a
way to help save the deal - it's in their interest to close this,
too.
Seller gets his price, buyer gets something of value in return. Deal
goes through, everyone is happy!

Right, that's the way that reasonable people arrive at successful
negotiations. I'm sure you and I could easily conclude a successful
real
estate deal that would leave us both content. But I think, based on
what the
buyer has described so far, that the seller does not fall into the
category
of "reasonable people". And I also think that the buyer is in danger
of
getting so wrapped up in the idea of winning the negotiation that
he's
neglecting to consider that there may be other, better opportunities
for him.

Don't misunderstand me: you've given very good advice here, about
ways to
sweeten the deal. But I seriously doubt that the seller will accept
the
proposal. I think the seller will reject an offer of 197 *without*
the
additional concessions you suggest, let alone *with* them.


Could be.

If it were me, I'd be asking myself, "How much is this property worth
to ME?" I get the impression the OP can afford to come up to $197 and
maybe even $202. It's not a matter of unafforability; it's a matter of
pride and scoring a good deal.

I did ultimately come up a few thousand more on my house than I thought
the property was really worth. But it is such a fabulous house! I love
it. I figured that the few thousand wasn't worth losing the house, and
ultimately, since I'm staying put for a long, long time, I'd make it
back in appreciation. Also, I sat down and calculated what I was paying
in rent. Every month I spent house-hunting was adding up.

Another way the OP could go - which is risky - is to say, "I'm sorry,
but I can't pay a single penny more than $195. I would really like to
make this deal work. How can we make this deal work?" He runs the risk
of the seller saying, "I'm sorry, but I can't accept any less than
$197/$200 or whatever." That is the calculation the OP needs to make
for himself.

jen