Tim Daneliuk wrote:
Nate Perkins wrote:
SNIP
....

I agree with respect to Afghanistan. I don't agree with respect to

Palestine; I think you want to take credit where none is due.

Really? Do you seriously think the post-Yassar regime' would be
negotiating were it not for US pressure.

I think the death of Yassar Arafat was probably more beneficial than
any US 'pressure'. More than putting pressure on anyone in particular
I think the Bush administration enabled everyone to rachet up the
violence. Note that there isn't much pressure on Russia or
Turkmenistan
to move toward, nor on Pakistan to move back to Democracy these days.


There was no active WMD program. And you exaggerate the strength
of his
army -- all of which had weapons that were 15 years out of date,
had no
spares, and was 1/3 the size it had been during Gulf War I.

OK - so it was the 8th or 9th or Whatever-Makes-You-Happy largest
army in the world. Nitpicking at minor details doesn't change the
larger point - we neutralized one of the top N military threats in
the world.

Back when Iraq HAD a bigger army and were supported by the US and the
Soviet Union they fought to a draw with Iran while Iran was subject to
sanctions so severe that their fighter pilots sometimes had to
communicate
with each other with hand signals becuase their radios didn't work.

Then they invaded Kuwait. You know what happened after that.

So, just who was iraq going to invade next? Syria? Turkey?
They might have been able to take on Jordan. But I think
Saddam Hussein knew the US wouldn't let them get away with
that either. He wasn't terribly bright, but he wasn't
suicidely stupid either.

....


Middle East peace and Jesus" it makes me even more nervous.

This is the disease of the neo-cons. They have some weird religious
version of Manifest Destiny running around in their heads.

I think Manifest destiny is merely a secular presentation of the
Protestant Doctrine of Predestination, similar to how 'Intelligent
Design' is simply a secular presentation of the Protestant Doctrine
of Creationism. Consider the contrast between the Protestant
Colonization of Eastern North America and the Catholic colonization
of Western North America. The Protestants simply supplanted
the Native Americans, driving them out. The Catholics herded
them into missions to convert them into Catholics and assimilate
them into the Colonial society. Around the world you'll find
various Protestant sects established in part on the doctrine
that the local natives had no souls.

The good thing
is that their deep religiosity makes it natural for them to be able
to
spot and name Evil - something the Libs largely don't even believe
exists.

Open your eyes man!

I challenge you to find a Liberal that doesn't quickly agree that
Saddam Hussein is evil or a neo-con who will admit to any evilness
in Falwell, Robinson, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Limbaugh,
Limbacher or Gonzales.

Lots of liberals will freely admit that perjury about a blow-job
is perjury, even if it's not 'bad enough' to justify throwing the
President out of office. But try to find a neo-con that thinks
torturing prisoners is worth even appointing a special prosecutor.

Far from being able to spot evil the neo-cons by and large are either
bland to or (given that they aren't ALL stupid) happy to deny the
most dangerous of evil men in their midst, those that attack the
moral priciples themselves

....


I used to despise the Left and Right equally - they both want to
screw people out of their lives, money, and freedom to apply
it to their pet causes. But the events of the past 4 years have
demonstrated that the Left is considerably worse and more dangerous.
In addition to wanting to "screw people out of ..." they also wish to
impose their secular version of Right and Wrong which is essentially
a denial that the latter innately exists.

I don't agree that the Left, however defined (personally I find
such characterisations as Left, Right, Liberal, and neo-con to
be not particularly useful)
may leave us open to physical attack but the neo-cons attack
the very moral principles that make America worth fighting for.

Which is why I fight them. I oppose them as a matter of moral
principle. Deceit and dishonesty are wrong. Torture and murder
are wrong. Chosing unpopular victims for the object of those
exercises does not change that.

Lefties that lie, cheat, and steal are wrong too. They typically
do not engage in torture or murder though. That they leave to
the craven cowards and pucilinious wimps among the neo-cons.



Iran and North Korea are exhibiting their fear by making nukes as
quickly as possible.

And that, of course, was not happening under previous administrations
right?

Under the previous administration the North Korean program was
stopped dead in its tracks. Dunno about Iran. But, no evidence
of NPT violations by Iran has emrged. Thus far if Iran has any
violations, they have kept them well-hidden while being quite
bold about their actions within the NPT limitations.

They've skillfully out-manouvered the US on the diplomatic front.
As you know, so long as Iran does not violate the NPT, and thus
far there has been no evidence that they have, the US and other
nuclear powers are REQUIRED to assist Iran in nuclear development.

Of course when the only American Diplomat with two brain cells
to rub together is shackled and gagged that's not too tough.

--

FF