On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:00:32 GMT, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In rec.crafts.metalworking on 16 Feb 2005 23:39:52 GMT
Dave Hinz wrote:
On 16 Feb 2005 15:05:38 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

Because we all share public roadways, anyone who
drives impaired (drunk,

Yes,

or cell phone use)

IF, and only if, they perform unsafely while using the cellphone.
Punish bad driving, not things that sometimes cause bad driving.

Umm... how are the two different?

They are profoundly different. Unsafe driving can include things like
unsafe lane changes, unsignalled moves, inappropriate speed, cutting
someone off, and so on. Talking on a cellphone is talking on a cellphone.
Talking on a cellphone doesn't make _me_ make unsafe lane changes,
or the other unsafe driving actions. Some people don't pay attention
and cause problems, some people are capable of using a cellphone
(in one way or another - earphone? Handsfree?) without running into
other cars.

The unsafe drivers should be punished regardless of the reason for
their unsafe driving. Just not paying attention but cutting me off,
is just as bad as being on a cellphone to cut me off.

It is known that not everyone who drives having had alcohol is going
to crash, or even drive badly.

OK, but are those people going to be pulled over? Probably not; it's
when a problem happens that the unsafe behavior is punished.

It is known that over a certain level of
alcohol in the blood, the chance of having a crash increases, but
forbidding driving while drunk is not punishing bad driving, it is
punishing driving while in a state that correlates with bad driving.

But, alcohol invariably decreases a driver's safety. Cellphone
usage only decreases a driver's safety if they're the sort of person
who can't prioritize what they should be paying attention to. One
is physiological, the other is strictly mental.

THe same appears to be true for banning driving while talking on a
mobile phone.

Depends on who you listen to.

So where are the differences in your mind between the two? Especially
given the studies about physical and mental co-ordination?

The differences are physiological vs. mental. The people who are
unsafe drivers with a cellphone, are probably unsafe drivers without
that cellphone.

If you punish bad driving, how will that be done?

Police cars? Just an idea.

Is it cost effective
for society to spend resources on dealing with people who are right then
driving badly, or on trying to prevent it?

So, you're going to punish people who do nothing wrong, because they
use an item correctly, rather than punishing those who do something
wrong? We're back to the gun control argument.

I suspect that's going to depend a lot on your definition of "driving
badly",

These are already defined violations. Enforce the existing laws, and
don't punish those doing nothing wrong.

on the local circumstances such as congestion, number of
vulnerable road users, road design etc, and on what you consider is a
good return on investment.

You're overanalyzing this. Enforce the existing traffic laws. Hell,
go ahead and add on a $20 fine if the violation happens when a cellphone
is in use, much like the "...and you weren't wearing your seatbelt" addon.
Great, that's fine, it's appropriate. But, don't ticket me for not
screwing up.

Plus, of course, how much "bad driving" by what ever definition you
choose contributes to crashes, and how you tell...

These things are well defined.

Dave Hinz