"John Rumm" wrote in message
...


I didn't know what I'd started did I?

Sorry, it was just an irritated, pesonal, throwaway line - but I've been
very interested by the replies.

If anyone is tempted by these applications, where are they obtained, how
much do they cost, how are they installed ... etc.

The simplest to get on with would be Thunderbird:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/

Click the download link, run the setup program when done, and then
configure much like you would OE.

The Bat - easy to setup and use - can also do the MS Exchange integration
that usually requires Outlook:

http://www.ritlabs.com/en/products/

Forte Agent - a google will turn up loads of versions, but here is one:

http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php

Tin (not recommended for newbies) in its original versions can be found
he

http://www.tin.org/
And a windows port he
http://two-wugs.net/wintin/

Then people have to learn new skills ...

To some degree yes. In the case of Thunderbird then not many.

It does, alas many do not even read the suggestions (e.g. the recent very
sensible change to turn on the firewall in XP SP2 by default. This was
necessary simply because the majority of users did not bother to enable
it even though it was installed and ready to go).


So you're suggesting applications which don't suggest that users think
for themselves?

I am not suggesting that users don't think for themselves, but at the same
time I do not believe that this is an acceptable get out for software
writers to ship fundamentally insecure products. Now MS have started to
take these issues more seriously, some of their choices with regard to
which default options they use, have been better. However even their best
efforts with WinXP SP2 ("the best windows yet" TM MS) still fall way
short.

It is a big problem, computer security is as you say a boring, techy, and
a very complex subject. You are not going to force many people to learn
about it. Personally I don't like applications that take control away, and
make arbitrary decisions for me. However I also accept that for some,
applications of this type are the only way they will be moderately safe.

I've been using internet for a few years and have never seen a preview
pan. I've only heard about them from people who've droned on boringly (!)
about how wonderful they are. I've never a) understood why or b) been
tempted to try to discover how to do it. But all these folk have not been
OE users, they've been telling me about preview panes as one of the
refinements of their own systems.

The preview pane is by default "on" in OE and Outlook - it is the standard
UI.

Well it isn't, and never has been - in my experience. Honestly.

(Look at the View | Layout... menu option).

I did. It's all grey.

Many people like it
because it makes reading emails/news quick and easy - click on the message
title, and the message is displayed.

The weakness is that if you have a message that is obviously spam / dodgy,
there is no easy way to select it for deletion without it also being
previewed.

But even then you don't have to open a mail ... and if it isn't shown in a
preview pane surely you do have to open it if you want to know what's in it?

puzzled


Yes. Fortunately the companies I deal with on-line are extremely security
aware. I've reported several spoofs. I think this is important but it's
surprising how may people complain about them yet do nothing.

Alas it is not always that simple. Try this quiz:-

http://survey.mailfrontier.com/survey/quiztest.html

Oh come on! You're not expecting me to open a url without knowing what it is
after everything you've said, are you ? :-)

Not that I would anyway!

That's the key word. Computer users should be educated to safeguard their
pcs. But they won't. You can't expect the software producers to give 100%
protection, users have a responsibility.

I agree. Software producers can't assume full responsibility, although you
may feel they do have some responsibility to at least release software
that is not a walking security exploit.

I'm not sure that even you can be sure about which software is 'safe'.
Somewhere we have to trust and no, I don't know how to base that trust
except by repute and experience.


Compare the situation with car drivers. They are, in theory, taught the
legal and safe way to drive. Very many think they know better and that
they don't need to follow the guidelines. If they have an accident the
car manufacturers can't be blamed.

There is difference here. You are required by law to pass a test and
obtain certification before your drive. You are also required to carry
insurance to protect third parties, and you are also required to have your
vehicle periodically inspected (after three years) to verify it is not
dangerous.

Those are the requirements. Many drivers don't accord with those
requirements. That was my point.

The same can not be said for being charmed by the PC world salesman who
will explain how you can be "on the internet in ten minutes" with "no
training or previous experience".

I'm not easily charmed :-)

If people are gullible on their own head be it. And I know you're going to
say that they have a responsibility to protect others but that's like saying
that all children should have the MMR immunisation to protect others who
could protect themselves. It's arguable that people must take responsibility
for their own lives.

There's a debate atthe moment about a costly yet compulsory ID card - to
protect others. Hmm.

Sorry, I'm drifting. Mustn't let that happen on a thread!

4) Trojan diallers,

....

I've heard of this and while I'm not smug I'm pleased to have broadband.
But that won't be safe forever. Nothing is.

You are safer in that respect, especially if your computers modem (if it
has one) is not connected to the phone line. Chances are you would notice
the reduction in performance if you suddenly got thrown back to dial up

I know I would, after working with a son's. He's desperate for broadband but
it's unlkely to happen. Don't get me started on that!


Out of interest, how did you learn about these issues? How do you select
what software you are going to run to scan for spyware etc?

Two sons, who workd independently with computer systems (one for the civil
service, one with the RAF), advised me. I now sit back and wait for you to
damn such naive public services :-)


My email system is not PC compatible, and does not run PC software, and
hence by extension PC targeted malware. This alone would not be good
security (i.e. it is just an example of "security by obscurity") but as a
final line of defence it helps.

But my e-mail system IS pc compatible - I assume, since it runs on a pc -
and I have no intention of mending it until it's broke, by which time I
could be dead.

Every customer I go to see, who is complaining that their computer is
running slowly or misbehaving in some other way, has a machine loaded
with spyware and trojans that have arrived as a result of a lack of
attention to detail on their part, coupled with use of IE/OE. It is
sometimes difficult to get their attention, but you can change their
software!


Can't you educate them? Or is it in your interest to change their
software?

Education, depends on the willingness of the customer to a large extent.
Some take the issues seriously and are keen to do what they can. Those are
easy. Some can't resist clicking on every link in every interesting
sounding email they receive! Most are somewhere in the middle ground.

An enthusiastic user would want to know how to usehis pc to the best
extent - but of course that brings us round to your argument of having a
different system to protect others ...


We publish a few tips on our web site that can help:

http://www.internode.co.uk/qna_internet.htm

I'll save it and might have a look.

We also try to guide people toward using a router for broadband access:

Already have one.


You also have to be aware that an unpatched Win2K / XP system can get
compromised just being connected to the internet with no firewall. This
is irrespective of any software that runs on top for email/web access.


That's what firewalls are for ...

But how so you download one safely on a Win2K system?

Or even in Basildon.

shivers don't use that word.... used to work there once!

LOL!

I knew I'd hit home with someone :-)))))))))

I went there once.

Thanks for your patience,

Mary