On 17 Aug 2004 19:09:26 GMT,
otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:
|Leon writes:
|
|Which IMHO is part of the problem. Ir law breakers had the fear of being
|punished, they may not break so many laws. If some one is seen stealing, he
|is not a suspect in the eyes of most people, he is truely guilty of
|stealing. But, unfortunately, the liberal laws protect the criminal.
|Again, don't let the criminal **** on your shoe and tell you is raining.
|
|Oh, bull****. What you are recommending is basically vigilante justice, with
|the cops doing all the deciding of who is and isn't guilty.
|
|Given, our legal system is in need of repair. Given, too many people get away
|with too much. Given, something has to be done. Not given: cops with the right
|to do as the damned well please on any or no evidence at all.
|
|If we could be absolutely sure ever cop, especially rent-a-cops though, had
|perfect judgment, then quite possibly allowing them to manhandle prisoners, or
|about-to-be prisoners, might be justified. Unfortunately, no one has perfect
|judgment, and double unfortunately, the Consitution gives us particular rights
|around arrest and incarceration.
|
|Law breakers should have the fear of the law drummed into them. But I don't
|want clerks in stores decided that I shoved something in my pocket because they
|didn't see me put it back on the shelf. Or, rather, I don't want them following
|me out of the store and jumping on me, or anyone else, over such things. I'm
|too old and fat to retaliate as I once might have, but I could sure as hell
|remove some teeth and part of an ear, maybe all of it, before going down.
Unfortunately, in Arizona alledged shoplifting is a capital crime
punishable by summary execution.
Quote from: http://www.1delta.net/news0604.html
" D.A. Will NOT File Charges In Death Of Shoplifter
(Tucson,AZ-June 13,2004)--On Feb 26, Frank Hernandez,36, entered the
Safeway Food & Drug store and was soon suspected of shoplifting by the
store's Security Guards. When the Security Guards tried to detain
Hernandez for questioning, the suspect resisted and a struggle ensued
resulting in Hernandez death. On Fri. the Pima County Attorney's
Office stated they do NOT plan to file charges in the case against the
store & Security Guards involved. An autopsy showed Hernandez died of
"asphyxia due to neck compression" and also had internal hemorrhaging
and suffered blunt-force injuries. In a letter to the Tucson Police
Department, Deputy County Attorney Rick Unklesbay said, "Frank
Hernandez's death is tragic, but I cannot conclude that it is
criminal." Unklesbay said several factors played into his decision,
from witness accounts that described Hernandez as provoking the fight
to a state law that allows merchants to detain suspected shoplifters.
Another state law also allows people to use physical force when
detaining others for law enforcement."
End quote.
A newspaper article indicated that the security guard had no problem
whatsoever "taking down" Mr. Hernandez, so I believe that any
"self-defense-in-fear-of-my life" defense is inapplicable.
Note the last two sentences in the quoted material. Any store
employee, or agent can detain *anyone* they suspect of shoplifting.
If that person resists, physical force can be used to detain the
individual. It appears that if this escalates to *deadly force* that
is okay too.
ARS 13-1805.5.C states: A merchant, or a merchant's agent or employee,
with reasonable cause, may detain on the premises in a reasonable
manner and for a reasonable time any person suspected of shoplifting
as defined in subsection A of this section for questioning or
summoning a law enforcement officer.
ARS 13-1805.5.D states: Reasonable cause is a defense to a civil or
criminal action against a peace officer, a merchant or an agent or
employee of such merchant for false arrest, false or unlawful
imprisonment or wrongful detention.
(I will write more about the above in another post.)
ARS 13-408 states: A person is justified in using physical force
against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would
believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe
is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal
damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or
control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these
circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.
None of these sections seem to apply to shoplifting, but the DA
obviously thinks they do.
So in Arizona anyway, if you leave the Borg and the buzzer goes off as
you go out the door because the clerk didn't zap the rfid tag, and you
keep walking, you can be killed. Who said the wild west was dead.