On Tue, 18 May 2021 20:43:12 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
On 18/05/2021 16:31, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:28:24 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
snip
and that is the thrust of your problem.
My problem! By 'my' you are also including the millions of other
people who would rather not exploit animals when they don't need to?
Yes specifically your problem it seems, obviously shared with a subset
of evangelical vegans, but far from the majority IME.
What, you think most vegans who in most cases (eg, even if not
'ethical') wouldn't prefer everyone to also not be causing animals to
I was not making any assessment about what they think or believe,
I know, I was asking you, based on what you said next.
just
how and when they approach discussing the topic with others. (should
swaying the opinion of others even be something they want to do, or care
about)
We have several vegetarian family members, and one vegan. The vegan made
their decision for their own reasons and we respect that.
How jolly decent of you.
Yet you can't do the same for us?
Of course not, there are victims?
You are happy for them to *not* be causing
animals to suffer and die and you (who are),
I don't accept that them eating meat is necessarily causing suffering -
I know you don't and so a big part of *your* problem.
so long as the animals are well treated and cared for.
And you would be the arbiter of that as well I'm guessing? So, hitting
a pig for no reason with a stick would be bad, causing it to suffer
for even 30 seconds in a gas chamber is 'ok'?
So it's a moot
point.
Far from it. ;-(
are you happy to respect
them!!
I am content to let them make their own choices, no matter my personal
feelings on the subject or how strange I might find some of those choices.
That might be magnanimous of you if you were judging someone doing
something similar to you, like say slave trading ('they look after
their slaves you know, feed them well and give them water and
shelter') or running human trafficking ring, where you *do* get them
in the country as promised?
What you are really complaining about is those annoying people who
keep talking about 'Fair Trade' and suggesting you might like to
consider people getting a fair wage for their efforts putting you off
your coffee that was picked by people who were being exploited against
their will. What a nuisance. ;-(
If feeding
them, we make the effort to provide food they will enjoy.
As you should as a good host irrespective of the reason surely?
We have sat in
a restaurants together (remember when that was a thing?)
(g sort of, I've never been a big fan (possibly because food isn't a
big part of my identity). I will use the odd cafe now and again if
they aren't too busy and give fast service).
Going out for a meal is not something I feel a need to do every week,
but its nice from time to time - or to mark occasions and celebrations.
I guess, if you do those things etc. ;-)
and enjoyed
whatever meals we ordered together.
Erm, yes, why wouldn't it? Or are you saying you might have been put
off by the lack of pain and suffering *their mean* required?
Some might feel the need to belittle their choices, eccentricities,
apparent self flagellation, or virtue signalling.
Or speaking out for the voiceless in the hope people might listen? Not
because of any personal gains, but for the victims. ICGAF what you
eat, just that I would prefer it didn't need to lead to an unnatural
life being fed unnatural food after being born though artificial
insemination and then being killed whilst still very young.
If you are thinking of *just* your organic 'beef', then I guess that
IF it spent all the time it wanted eating grass, had water and shelter
and then just had one bad day, then compared with some 'meat
production' it wouldn't be 'so bad', but the fact that an animal had
it's life taken for no scientifically justifiable reason is enough for
some. And many (most) couldn't and wouldn't do it themselves,
demonstrating how hypocritical they are being to everyone and
themselves.
Yet at no point did they feel the
need to take out a megaphone and start lecturing anyone and everyone in
earshot that by eating that lasagna, they are participating the RAPE of
a cow or any other nonsense.
Probably a sensible move. I wouldn't think of doing that either ...
So why do you do the functional equivalent here?
however, in a *discussion group* ...
A discussion group at least loosely connected with DIY / making / fixing
etc (at times many other things in moderation).
There you go, you didn't need to ask. ;-)
See, given you aren't so stupid that you *wouldn't* accept that the
methane, the waste, the resources used, the habitat lost or the
overall pain and suffering seen in much meat production and general
animal exploitation isn't a real problem TO ALL OF US, why it would be
any less valid as an OT (especially) topic to discuss here as any
other on similar (and especially) worse lines?
Now imagine a poster vocally piping up in a multitude of threads
berating people for not taking up Morris dancing.
Sorry, I'm not sure who is the victim there? Do people get their
throats cut when dancing or watching?
Claiming that the only
reason we don't is because we don't understand Morris dancing, or we are
just too thick or unethical to appreciate its true superiority as the
one, the only, and true way of life.
Sorry, you analogy is bogus so I really can't take it seriously.
Think of another one where there are innocent victims, where there is
pollution created where we all have to suffer, where habitat is
destroyed etc. The gas boiler or peat bogs don't even get close.
Do you spose that could get tedious?
Having to explain why people might need to consider their choices when
it could help in so many aspects, no, if that's what it takes (and you
have a kill file so could kill file *anyone* who raises the subject)?
that seems to contain loads of
talk about health and the environment ...
Pleasant conversation, and enjoyment of a shared meal being far more
likely to engender people to their way of thinking,
It can do for sure. Other times you have to lock people in prison
because they don't seem to heed the message..
than the megaphone
program of harassment you seem to be following.
Aww bless. ;-)
As I said, I know you have a vested (family) interest in what many
would very much consider the unnecessarily exploitation of animals and
Not really - I have relatives that were arable and dairy farmers, but
they are now retired, and previous generations that were butchers, and
restaurant owners. So no vested interest, but perhaps slightly more
visibility of the industries than some.
Ok. I thought you mentioned organic farming (of meat) as if it was
current?
I appreciate I believe you have said you personally are cutting back
on how much meat you eat
I think I said I ought to - not quite the same thing.
Ah. ;-(
(as are most who are bright enough to heed
all the warnings) but as I mentioned previously, not only is this a
discussion group but the issues under discussion are already affecting
all of us ('humanity') in ways most simply don't have a clue about.
True of a vast range of subjects - also nothing to do with DIY.
All of my threads on any OT topic are marked as such so ...
Just because not eating meat isn't the norm now, I'm pretty sure it
will (have to) be in the future,
I very much doubt that, and see no need for it to be the case.
Of course you don't. Did you read the link Tim... posted recently? Do
you not consider all the scientific reports stating that our reliance
on meat is unsustainable?
I think it was meant to be a rebuttal of the idea that *not*
exploiting and killing animals was in everyone's interest but actually
confirms much of what I have been saying all along:
https://www.theguardian.com/business...t-debut-public
Yes there
are very good arguments for a reduction in individual consumption,
Good, then we are getting somewhere with you. Now, consider the impact
on the world if 9 billion individuals cut down their meat intake ...
but
none that I can see that warrant elimination -
So all this moving to a 'plant based diet' is just fantasy to you
then?
even if there are limits
on further growth.
A revamp of how farms are subsidised will take care of much of it,
along with stronger fines for all the pollution they create.
as we evolve into a new era of
actually taking responsibility of how we have assumed we could keep
doing the old things for ever when it's pretty obvious we can't.
Perhaps we will come up with a machine/process that can turn water and
grass clippings into beef (other than a cow) and everyone will be happy...
What is your fascination for the flesh of just a few species that you
neither need to consume to survive and many have never eaten all their
lives?
Are you going to work you way though the entire animal species list in
case there is something out there that is even more desirable to you
than beef (and if not why not)?
If you are happy to kill a cow then there must be nothing wrong with
killing anything you think you might like the taste of (Ok, you might
draw the line at making a species extinct but many meat eaters haven't
stopped there in the past)?
Cheers, T i m