On 18/05/2021 16:31, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:28:24 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

and that is the thrust of your problem.

My problem! By 'my' you are also including the millions of other
people who would rather not exploit animals when they don't need to?

Yes specifically your problem it seems, obviously shared with a subset
of evangelical vegans, but far from the majority IME.

What, you think most vegans who in most cases (eg, even if not
'ethical') wouldn't prefer everyone to also not be causing animals to

I was not making any assessment about what they think or believe, just
how and when they approach discussing the topic with others. (should
swaying the opinion of others even be something they want to do, or care
about)

We have several vegetarian family members, and one vegan. The vegan made
their decision for their own reasons and we respect that.

How jolly decent of you.

Yet you can't do the same for us?

You are happy for them to *not* be causing
animals to suffer and die and you (who are),

I don't accept that them eating meat is necessarily causing suffering -
so long as the animals are well treated and cared for. So it's a moot
point.

are you happy to respect
them!!

I am content to let them make their own choices, no matter my personal
feelings on the subject or how strange I might find some of those choices.

If feeding
them, we make the effort to provide food they will enjoy.

As you should as a good host irrespective of the reason surely?

We have sat in
a restaurants together (remember when that was a thing?)

(g sort of, I've never been a big fan (possibly because food isn't a
big part of my identity). I will use the odd cafe now and again if
they aren't too busy and give fast service).

Going out for a meal is not something I feel a need to do every week,
but its nice from time to time - or to mark occasions and celebrations.

and enjoyed
whatever meals we ordered together.

Erm, yes, why wouldn't it? Or are you saying you might have been put
off by the lack of pain and suffering *their mean* required?

Some might feel the need to belittle their choices, eccentricities,
apparent self flagellation, or virtue signalling.

Yet at no point did they feel the
need to take out a megaphone and start lecturing anyone and everyone in
earshot that by eating that lasagna, they are participating the RAPE of
a cow or any other nonsense.

Probably a sensible move. I wouldn't think of doing that either ...

So why do you do the functional equivalent here?

however, in a *discussion group* ...

A discussion group at least loosely connected with DIY / making / fixing
etc (at times many other things in moderation).

Now imagine a poster vocally piping up in a multitude of threads
berating people for not taking up Morris dancing. Claiming that the only
reason we don't is because we don't understand Morris dancing, or we are
just too thick or unethical to appreciate its true superiority as the
one, the only, and true way of life. Do you spose that could get tedious?

that seems to contain loads of
talk about health and the environment ...

Pleasant conversation, and enjoyment of a shared meal being far more
likely to engender people to their way of thinking,

It can do for sure. Other times you have to lock people in prison
because they don't seem to heed the message..

than the megaphone
program of harassment you seem to be following.

Aww bless. ;-)

As I said, I know you have a vested (family) interest in what many
would very much consider the unnecessarily exploitation of animals and

Not really - I have relatives that were arable and dairy farmers, but
they are now retired, and previous generations that were butchers, and
restaurant owners. So no vested interest, but perhaps slightly more
visibility of the industries than some.

I appreciate I believe you have said you personally are cutting back
on how much meat you eat

I think I said I ought to - not quite the same thing.

(as are most who are bright enough to heed
all the warnings) but as I mentioned previously, not only is this a
discussion group but the issues under discussion are already affecting
all of us ('humanity') in ways most simply don't have a clue about.

True of a vast range of subjects - also nothing to do with DIY.

Just because not eating meat isn't the norm now, I'm pretty sure it
will (have to) be in the future,

I very much doubt that, and see no need for it to be the case. Yes there
are very good arguments for a reduction in individual consumption, but
none that I can see that warrant elimination - even if there are limits
on further growth.

as we evolve into a new era of
actually taking responsibility of how we have assumed we could keep
doing the old things for ever when it's pretty obvious we can't.

Perhaps we will come up with a machine/process that can turn water and
grass clippings into beef (other than a cow) and everyone will be happy...


--
Cheers,

John.

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