On Tue, 18 May 2021 10:03:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/05/2021 23:40, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 22:14:07 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Hopefully good news (and there will be plenty of more of that to
come).

Why?

Because it seems it's the only way we can get some people to stop
causing animals to suffer and die unnecessarily?

It still makes no sense.

Ok ...

I would expect the vast majority who eat animals already realise that
they are sentient beings.

Do they? How many here for example consider them 'just meat' and only
pay a lip service to the welfare? They can't give up 'meat', not they
want to stop killing animals?

Which is why the vast majority of people who
eat animals want to see that they cared for and treated humanely while
alive,

I don't believe they do,

and that is the thrust of your problem.

My problem! By 'my' you are also including the millions of other
people who would rather not exploit animals when they don't need to?

You don't understand that
someone can decide to breed animals for food.

Of course I do. It's not illegal?

Insist that they are well
fed,

Should be a foregone conclusion?

cared for,

Should be a foregone conclusion?

and protected from harm,

Till the 'breeder' decides to subject the ultimate level of harm,
*death*.

and not mistreated during life,

Should be a foregone conclusion?

before they are humanely killed

No such thing mate, not when it's unnecessary and on an innocent /
sentient creature that doesn't want to die (and quite the opposite,
would do everything it could to live).

https://ibb.co/Cm2pDgt

You are using the 'are you still beating your wife' logic.

and consumed

Unnecessarily for the vast majority and only because of indoctrination
(accepting the practice), conditioning (family feeding you animal
flesh) and constant marketing (Look at this happy cow, eating grass in
a field, (video cuts to a lump of animal flesh from one of the 90+% of
animals that have never seen a field)).

(or their eggs/milk/wool
used).

Whilst exploiting the animal to the point where it would be killed
only a short way through it's natural life because it's no longer
'viable' as an industrial production machine you mean?

You appear to believe that this is some kind weird act of mental
compartmentalisation that no one in their right mind would
understandingly enter into.

You have it ... and as I am in no doubt, history will prove.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is precisely what does happen.

Again, not my 'bubble' John (or anyone who is still evolving), it's
already happening with even the big animal exploiters realising that
the end is in sight and already diversifying (to more plant based
output) to stay in business.

We
learn and understand where animal products come from,

Many don't and certainly not the *complete* picture and even then,
many suppress the truth because it's would put them off their dinner.
Not the same response when people learn how their fruit and veg gets
onto their plate of course.

and then many
(most) consciously make a decision that in spite of the less agreeable
aspects,

The obvious long term imprisonment, exploitation, mental and physical
suffering before a questionable death you mean?

there is a nett benefit,

'Net benefit' for *THEM*, being the few moments of tastes or profit
from such exploitation you mean?

while some decide that vegi is the way
for them.

According to all the science, that's already the case mate. ;-)

because if they did, they wouldn't eat meat.

They do, and they they do.

Not under all the facts and for the vast majority.

It's only the conditioning / normalising of animal exploitation that
allows anyone (who isn't in a survival situation) to be doing so in
2021.

snip

and also probably little
difference those those who mistreat them either - since both realise
they are sentient.

Quite. Everone who eats meat mistreats animals

In your humble opinion of course.

Well, if you can show me the animal that will walk into the gas
chamber on it's own, then no, it's not.

that do not want to
die. It's the ultimate mistreatment, *death*.

Mother nature will do far worse in many cases.

Oh pleeease, don't roll out that old strawman. What we do to animals
is *NOTHING* to do with what animals choose / have to do in nature.

They still die but live a
life of torture and suffering along the way, before a lingering death.

Of course, nature is harsh. But it *IS* natural, holding an animal in
a frame while you bolt gun it in the head and giving it no chance to
escape or try to protect itself is *FAR* for *natural*.

I doubt there are many for who this must be some kind of news! (even
thick people can normally spot the difference between a pig and a brick.

What they don't seem able to do is spot when they are supporting the
suffering, exploitation and death of sentient creatures and hence the

That's going to be your new buzzword isn't it - slotted in among all the
other evangelical American "shock jock" rhetoric. You really have got
this religion bad.

Grow up. Look, I get it, it is said that those most likely to kick
back the hardest are those who might lose their livelihoods over it
(or their families etc). Veganism isn't a religion, it's a
realisation, acceptance and knowledge of the *FACT* that an inelegant
species is supposed to look after, not exploit other species around
them, especially where it will lead to their own destruction. I wonder
what the next (likely zoonotic) pandemic will be ...

snip

The thought that an animal *will* have to suffer (because they do) for
my pleasure is enough to stop millions of us from 'enjoying' such
things.

And it's your choice.

It's nothing to do with me, it's about the choice *you* aren't giving
to them. To live their lives (especially the wild animals whose
habitat you destroy to grow food and graze your meat that shouldn't
even be here).

Why farmed meat specifically, rather than any other manufactured product?

Really? Are you trying to suggest that making a 10mm nut is the same
as breeding and killing an animal (that we don't need to kill)?

As is enjoying an omelette for the majority.

As it still is for me (except now I don't use chickenS eggs, because I
have aligned my actions to my morals).

I use chicken eggs for the same reason.

Yes, I know. Your 'morality' allows you to think that it's 'ok' to
exploit a bird for *it's* eggs when it's obvious that egg was never
(ever) produced for you.

You could say the same about our use of any other resource of course
but most don't directly require the death of a sentient creature that
doesn't want to die.

snip

You ain't the sole arbiter of ethics - live with it.

I have never (ever) suggested I was, it's the spirit of millions of
like minded (and ever growing) number of others around the world you
are trying to argue against (and the billions of sentient beings whose
lives you (meat / egg / milk) eaters take from them, just to satisfy
your taste desire?

More than taste, the range of animal based products is vast, and the
uses many.

Of course, and slowly being phased out for alternatives that don't
rely on the exploitation of animals in many cases.

Michelin for example are 'proud' to state that all their car tyres are
vegan. Why would they be proud if doing so wasn't 'a good thing'?

However it can't be denied they are also a delicious,

Only to those who actually like the taste and many non-vegans don't.
There are probably loads of things people have never tried they might
also like so are they missing out?

highly
nutritious source of food as well,

It's also recommended you don't eat that much of it, (unlike fruit and
veg) so I'm not sure how true that is.

as I am sure you recall from being a
meat eater for longer than I have.

Funnily enough, no. As I have mentioned previously, I have never been
a 'big meat eater', I've rarely had a steak (throughout my life) or
chop and I don't think I have *ever* had anything that still had it's
head on. I've *never* had rabbit, or pigeon because 1) I didn't need
to and 2) because I had them as pets.

(Also in some cases a very practical way of extracting food value from
otherwise uncultivable land).

Something that wouldn't be needed when we weren't feeding vast
proportions of the foodstuff we could eat to livestock.

Did you see Countryfile on Sunday OOI. New payments to farmers to do
even better re re-wilding and protecting the environment. Fewer
monocultures and use of chemicals. They mentioned the 200 chicken
farms that are along the river Why (I think) and the potential link to
high phosphate levels polluting the river (common in chicken waste).

Fewer livestock, more plants, fewer chemicals, better more diverse use
of land, focus on the survival of the human race and all the wildlife,
not further destroying the rock we all have to share.

If it's all so normal to eat meat, why won't most people be involved
in the process? Why would most go vegan rather than pull the trigger?

If it's so normal, why aren't all children educated re the full
details from when they are first given meat?

Sex is normal, do we educate them in the full details of that from
infancy?

There is no reason why we couldn't / shouldn't from a biology /
reproduction POV, just as we might digestion / respiration?

(I know, there are some creepy men out there that would argue
that is a good idea as well!)

See above.

What about disease and death?

Why not (at the appropriate depth and in the right format).

It makes more sense than telling them about father xmyth or the tooth
fairy.

If eating meat is so
'normal', why don't the kids visit an abattoir like they visit an
orchard or arable farm?

They do. I did - school trip aged about 15.... It was educational, and
actually quite reassuring.

And did you see all of it and what were the animals? And it was
'reassuring' you say ...

Why when they visit a dairy do they not see
the calf being taken away from it's mum and have them explain *why*
both mum and calf are calling for each other?

I know the answer of course, the action of killing anything
(especially sentient)

new fave word huh...

It's the same word I've been using all along (keep up FFS)? It just so
happens it's hit the media lately with the new AWA so maybe you
recognise the word now. ;-)

isn't natural at all, it's something people do
to each other in rage, self defence, (inc of their country or after
being brainwashed) or when their morals allow them to consider it
acceptable. When they do that they are all judged to see if it was
'avoidable' etc (even within a war).

and something we routinely do for food.

And will be doing less as we evolve further and have to to survive.

Most people (in the civilised world) bring their children up to
respect and care for animals, then they feed them the dismembered
carcases like it's all perfectly normal...

Which if course it is.

In your lifetime it has been made so but there is *nothing* normal
about how we treat most livestock.

(when they don't need to).

according to a limited view of "need"

Nope, in an absolute use of the word (for a vast proportion of the
cases).

I don't even 'need' to have an egg based flu vaccine as they make them
that aren't cultured in eggs.

I don't need to wear leather belts and shoes as they make them out of
other materials.

I don't need tyres made with animal based stearic acid as they make
them out of plant based alternatives. I don't need chocolate from cows
milk as they make it without.

I guess it all boils down to just how much you care (or don't) about
other living things around you and more specifically if you *believe*
you have the right to take a another life, simply to give you pleasure
(taste typically). You are a sensible person and so you *know* you
don't *need* to eat animals to obtain *all* the nutrition you requires
(as confirmed by the very people who deal with that for a living, like
the thousands of members of the British and American dietetic
associations) so it's down the fact that you *choose* that path.

I and millions like me have chosen a different path, a choice
determined by fact, morals and ethics, one that *IS* both better for
us (directly in our health), the animals (livestock and wild) and us
via the reduction in damage to *our* environment via better resource
usage and reduced pollution (from as many livestock as there are
people on the planet). The only choice that is sustainable.

https://ibb.co/0CMRm0B ;-)

Cheers, T i m