On 17/05/2021 23:40, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 22:14:07 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Hopefully good news (and there will be plenty of more of that to
come).

Why?

Because it seems it's the only way we can get some people to stop
causing animals to suffer and die unnecessarily?

It still makes no sense.

Ok ...

I would expect the vast majority who eat animals already realise that
they are sentient beings.

Do they? How many here for example consider them 'just meat' and only
pay a lip service to the welfare? They can't give up 'meat', not they
want to stop killing animals?

Which is why the vast majority of people who
eat animals want to see that they cared for and treated humanely while
alive,

I don't believe they do,

and that is the thrust of your problem. You don't understand that
someone can decide to breed animals for food. Insist that they are well
fed, cared for, and protected from harm, and not mistreated during life,
before they are humanely killed and consumed (or their eggs/milk/wool
used).

You appear to believe that this is some kind weird act of mental
compartmentalisation that no one in their right mind would
understandingly enter into.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is precisely what does happen. We
learn and understand where animal products come from, and then many
(most) consciously make a decision that in spite of the less agreeable
aspects, there is a nett benefit, while some decide that vegi is the way
for them.

because if they did, they wouldn't eat meat.

They do, and they they do.


and then killed in as quick and painless way as possible.

Define how quick 'as possible' should be? How much pain do *you*
consider 'ok' to inflict on an innocent creature that doesn't actually
need to die (and certainly doesn't want to) for us to survive?

Having a bit of legislation define them as sentient makes no difference
to those of us who do care about their welfare,

See above, and my reply elsewhere re yet another opportunity to open
up discussion on the whole commodification of animals for their flesh
(eggs / milk).

and also probably little
difference those those who mistreat them either - since both realise
they are sentient.

Quite. Everone who eats meat mistreats animals

In your humble opinion of course.

that do not want to
die. It's the ultimate mistreatment, *death*.

Mother nature will do far worse in many cases. They still die but live a
life of torture and suffering along the way, before a lingering death.

I doubt there are many for who this must be some kind of news! (even
thick people can normally spot the difference between a pig and a brick.

What they don't seem able to do is spot when they are supporting the
suffering, exploitation and death of sentient creatures and hence the

That's going to be your new buzzword isn't it - slotted in among all the
other evangelical American "shock jock" rhetoric. You really have got
this religion bad.

need for the education and outreach. They *think* that cows need
milking *anyway*, that chickens lay eggs *anyway* so we can just take
them if we want and pigs exist just to give us bacon.

Farmed pigs generally *do* exist just to provide food and a multitude of
other useful materials.

Quite, animals we have exploited into that situation.

They are not bred just because farmers like to
have lots of pets and enjoy wading through pig ****.

Grow up. ;-)

If animals are to be recognised as sentient beings, shouldn't that mean everyone must become vegetarian?

No, because that means we aren't recognising the sentience and so
rights of egg laying chickens or cows.

Nonsense.

Perfect sense.

You may well think you chicken qualifies for entry to Mensa,

Grow up.

thrrrrrp

but that
does not stop you enjoying an egg with your bacon.

The thought that an animal *will* have to suffer (because they do) for
my pleasure is enough to stop millions of us from 'enjoying' such
things.

And it's your choice.

It's nothing to do with me, it's about the choice *you* aren't giving
to them. To live their lives (especially the wild animals whose
habitat you destroy to grow food and graze your meat that shouldn't
even be here).

Why farmed meat specifically, rather than any other manufactured product?

As is enjoying an omelette for the majority.

As it still is for me (except now I don't use chickenS eggs, because I
have aligned my actions to my morals).

I use chicken eggs for the same reason.

No

need for either group to proselytise.

Of course there is, because one group is destroying the planet and
causing unnecessary death and suffering to the other? You (meat / egg
/ milk) eaters aren't the victims here, you are the aggressors. ;-(

(Never seen a cow egg - so will skip those!)

Yes, it might be best for you as we will have to start testing your
supposed ethics skills again. ;-)

You ain't the sole arbiter of ethics - live with it.

I have never (ever) suggested I was, it's the spirit of millions of
like minded (and ever growing) number of others around the world you
are trying to argue against (and the billions of sentient beings whose
lives you (meat / egg / milk) eaters take from them, just to satisfy
your taste desire?

More than taste, the range of animal based products is vast, and the
uses many. However it can't be denied they are also a delicious, highly
nutritious source of food as well, as I am sure you recall from being a
meat eater for longer than I have.

(Also in some cases a very practical way of extracting food value from
otherwise uncultivable land).

If it's all so normal to eat meat, why won't most people be involved
in the process? Why would most go vegan rather than pull the trigger?

If it's so normal, why aren't all children educated re the full
details from when they are first given meat?

Sex is normal, do we educate them in the full details of that from
infancy? (I know, there are some creepy men out there that would argue
that is a good idea as well!)

What about disease and death?

If eating meat is so
'normal', why don't the kids visit an abattoir like they visit an
orchard or arable farm?

They do. I did - school trip aged about 15.... It was educational, and
actually quite reassuring.

Why when they visit a dairy do they not see
the calf being taken away from it's mum and have them explain *why*
both mum and calf are calling for each other?

I know the answer of course, the action of killing anything
(especially sentient)

new fave word huh...

isn't natural at all, it's something people do
to each other in rage, self defence, (inc of their country or after
being brainwashed) or when their morals allow them to consider it
acceptable. When they do that they are all judged to see if it was
'avoidable' etc (even within a war).

and something we routinely do for food.

Most people (in the civilised world) bring their children up to
respect and care for animals, then they feed them the dismembered
carcases like it's all perfectly normal...

Which if course it is.

(when they don't need to).

according to a limited view of "need"



--
Cheers,

John.

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