On Mon, 17 May 2021 22:14:07 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/05/2021 17:29, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 15:52:31 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Hopefully good news (and there will be plenty of more of that to
come).

Why?

Because it seems it's the only way we can get some people to stop
causing animals to suffer and die unnecessarily?

It still makes no sense.

Ok ...

I would expect the vast majority who eat animals already realise that
they are sentient beings.

Do they? How many here for example consider them 'just meat' and only
pay a lip service to the welfare? They can't give up 'meat', not they
want to stop killing animals?

Which is why the vast majority of people who
eat animals want to see that they cared for and treated humanely while
alive,

I don't believe they do, because if they did, they wouldn't eat meat.

and then killed in as quick and painless way as possible.

Define how quick 'as possible' should be? How much pain do *you*
consider 'ok' to inflict on an innocent creature that doesn't actually
need to die (and certainly doesn't want to) for us to survive?

Having a bit of legislation define them as sentient makes no difference
to those of us who do care about their welfare,

See above, and my reply elsewhere re yet another opportunity to open
up discussion on the whole commodification of animals for their flesh
(eggs / milk).

and also probably little
difference those those who mistreat them either - since both realise
they are sentient.

Quite. Everone who eats meat mistreats animals that do not want to
die. It's the ultimate mistreatment, *death*.

I doubt there are many for who this must be some kind of news! (even
thick people can normally spot the difference between a pig and a brick.

What they don't seem able to do is spot when they are supporting the
suffering, exploitation and death of sentient creatures and hence the
need for the education and outreach. They *think* that cows need
milking *anyway*, that chickens lay eggs *anyway* so we can just take
them if we want and pigs exist just to give us bacon.

Farmed pigs generally *do* exist just to provide food and a multitude of
other useful materials.

Quite, animals we have exploited into that situation.

They are not bred just because farmers like to
have lots of pets and enjoy wading through pig ****.

Grow up. ;-)

If animals are to be recognised as sentient beings, shouldn't that mean everyone must become vegetarian?

No, because that means we aren't recognising the sentience and so
rights of egg laying chickens or cows.

Nonsense.

Perfect sense.

You may well think you chicken qualifies for entry to Mensa,

Grow up.

thrrrrrp

but that
does not stop you enjoying an egg with your bacon.

The thought that an animal *will* have to suffer (because they do) for
my pleasure is enough to stop millions of us from 'enjoying' such
things.

And it's your choice.

It's nothing to do with me, it's about the choice *you* aren't giving
to them. To live their lives (especially the wild animals whose
habitat you destroy to grow food and graze your meat that shouldn't
even be here).

As is enjoying an omelette for the majority.

As it still is for me (except now I don't use chickenS eggs, because I
have aligned my actions to my morals).

No
need for either group to proselytise.

Of course there is, because one group is destroying the planet and
causing unnecessary death and suffering to the other? You (meat / egg
/ milk) eaters aren't the victims here, you are the aggressors. ;-(

(Never seen a cow egg - so will skip those!)

Yes, it might be best for you as we will have to start testing your
supposed ethics skills again. ;-)

You ain't the sole arbiter of ethics - live with it.

I have never (ever) suggested I was, it's the spirit of millions of
like minded (and ever growing) number of others around the world you
are trying to argue against (and the billions of sentient beings whose
lives you (meat / egg / milk) eaters take from them, just to satisfy
your taste desire?

If it's all so normal to eat meat, why won't most people be involved
in the process? Why would most go vegan rather than pull the trigger?

If it's so normal, why aren't all children educated re the full
details from when they are first given meat? If eating meat is so
'normal', why don't the kids visit an abattoir like they visit an
orchard or arable farm? Why when they visit a dairy do they not see
the calf being taken away from it's mum and have them explain *why*
both mum and calf are calling for each other?

I know the answer of course, the action of killing anything
(especially sentient) isn't natural at all, it's something people do
to each other in rage, self defence, (inc of their country or after
being brainwashed) or when their morals allow them to consider it
acceptable. When they do that they are all judged to see if it was
'avoidable' etc (even within a war).

Most people (in the civilised world) bring their children up to
respect and care for animals, then they feed them the dismembered
carcases like it's all perfectly normal... (when they don't need to).

Cheers, T i m