On Sat, 1 May 2021 13:42:04 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
we only have to think of the animal suffering and we would rather just go
without. The problem is the assumption that we had the right to any of
this stuff in the first place and we didn't

This is the problem I have with veganism: the fact that you (and other
vegans) would rather go without than compromise animal suffering.

Why would that be a problem for you?

For me,
the needs/desires of humans comes first.

And where the *needs* can be satisfied without causing animals to
suffer and die of course. Now, if you *desire* to cause suffering and
death to innocent creatures ...

If those can be satisfied without
compromising animals, so much the better.

They can and are as confirmed by millions of vegans (and billions of
herbivores). ;-)

Humans have eaten meat and animal products (milk, eggs), and used animal
products (wool, leather) for millennia.

Because much of it was *survival*. I would imagine you wouldn't
typically eat a dog, or another human if you didn't need to, but if
you were the only one who survived the plane crash ... ?

Now that almost-alternatives are
available for some of these, vegans are deciding to shun the animal
products.

And non meat foods have been available (and chosen in preference) by
many of course. See, in 2021 we shouldn't look at any animal as
'food', they are sentient, independent and intelligent creatures that
we neither own nor have the right to do with as we please (and have
laws that protect many).

Fine - that is their choice.

Good to know. ;-)

I respect it, even if I don't agree
with it.

Not sure you have much of a choice eh. ;-)

As long as (like religion) they keep their beliefs to themselves
and don't try to foist them on everyone else.

Well, that logic falls down straight away as you are foisting your
beliefs onto other creatures.

So, if you buy beef and the benefit you get from that causes more
pollution, uses more land, devastates more environment and causes more
burden on the health system than the alternatives then you aren't
keeping yourself to yourself are you?

In the case of religion and
veganism,

Why are you trying to conflate those? They are *nothing* to do or like
each other.

Religion is a belief system. No facts, no tangible pros or cons (other
than religious wars or actions that impact the innocent).

Veganism is a lifestyle choice where people don't rate animals over
humans, we rate animals equal to humans in their right to life.

the more someone tries to make me feel guilty or inferior, with
emotional/emotive arguments, the more strongly I will resist.

Then that says more about you then you may have wanted to reveal. See,
'normally' with normal / open-minded people, highlighting the facts
behind what they do, revealing the true cost ... would get them
thinking, making them think to themselves about what they currently do
and how they might change that for the better.

I'm guessing you wouldn't intentionally hurt an animal so when you
don't, your actions are aligned with your morals. You are logically
consistent. When you get someone else to kill and animal, just for you
to enjoy the taste of, you are no longer aligning your actions with
your morals, you are no longer logically consistent.

So, you 'push back' because no one likes to have to face such a
dilemma.

We knew it was 'wrong' all along but allowed our cognitive dissonance
to modify our morals (with the help of years of conditioning and
marketing, left over from a different age), the we thought about it,
guided in our case by our daughter trying Veganuary and have been
happier ever since. Happier because we are no longer at odds with our
morals.

What is the best alternative for leather - for shoes, belts etc? Plastic,
probably, but plastic has a bad press these days.

There are loads of alternatives becoming more common / popular these
days like hemp and bamboo.

You can't do right for
doing wrong :-(

Of course you can, once you try and educate yourself re the options.

The ice cream van on our dog walk didn't stock any vegan options, till
we educated him to what was out there. So he started stocking them and
earned not only us as customers but other vegans who didn't have the
courage to ask and educate.

And what about horse saddles - always assuming that vegans
permit the riding of horses for pleasure, now that they are no longer needed
for farming/haulage.

Of course they don't: Look, it's very, very easy ....

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is
possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty
to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

So, making an animal that was never 'designed' to carry us (or
anything) is exploitation. Why do we have to (used to?)'break horses
in' to be able to get a saddle on them?

Now, is horse riding the first thing we want to stop, no, of course
not, it's the billions of animals that are artificially bred,
unnaturally kept and unnecessarily slaughtered that we need to
consider *first* and we can work down to all the other later. ;-)

There is a danger that vegans come across as killjoys - you can't do this
and you can't do that because it subjugates or harms animals.

Yes, of course, just like the people who got slave trading, dog / cock
fighting stopped you mean? You speak from the POV of their being no
victims but both they and us are victims in this case.

If anything in
life is enjoyable, there will be a vegan argument somewhere for not doing
it.

Please don't be a dick. What part of 'people who want to stop causing
suffering and exploitation of animals' do you think means them wanting
to stop people doing anything else, as long as it doesn't cause
suffering to animals of course.

I guess them putting a levy on driving your polluting car into London
(because people are dying of the pollution) are 'spoilsports' are
they? They are just doing it because they want to spoil the car
drivers day?

Would most people want to live in a vegan world, given all the changes
that it would force on them?

Most intelligent people realise *now* that we will all have to be
living in a vegan world at some point, assuming we actually want to
survive ourselves.

What many people are coming to realise is that we have been ****ting
in our own water for long enough, and now, not only is it poisoning
the animals that drink there but us when we eat the animals. Part of
us not ****ting in our own water is not keeping billions of livestock
that add more creatures ****ting in our water than the humans doing
it!

See, it's not about you or I, it's about us, where us equals every
human and every wild animal on this planet that both we and the planet
need to survive. Start doubling the world population (with livestock)
and we have doubled the problem. That particular problem could be
fixed very quickly, not be world leaders or protests or anything so
complicated, just by choosing to do the right thing yourself and stop
being part of the problem.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Or daughter won't eat anything tomorrow (the 2nd of the month and
every month) in sympathy with the millions of other animals that will
be starving tomorrow, as they are being prepared for slaughter and
feeding (or giving them water) them is therefore considered both 'a
waste' (of food = money) and because of the inconvenience of the extra
mess they then have to deal with in the slaughterhouses. All the ****
all over your dinner .... ;-(



She wears an AFOTS slogan T shirt and that often causes people to
engage in conversation and of course most are horrified when they hear
what happens and most were completely unaware of it happening. So
'activism' (should be) is just a form of education to allow people to
then make more educates choices.