On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 11:00:59 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:21:26 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

T i m wrote:

4) Or you don't heat (or store) meat properly and it gives you food
poisoning.

5) You don't wash your hands or food surfaces properly after handling
raw meat and it gives you food poisoning.

These things are hardly unique to meat products. Botulism is lethal
and happens with vegetables

Of course, but how 'often' is such a thing a risk compared with say
poor handling and hygiene around handling uncooked chicken?

I've no idea, have you?

No, but you stated the counter argument and I've never seen any chef
on TV or anyone making any points re hygiene re handling veg but have
re meat (particularly) chicken and many times?

6) Few would eat meat if they had to kill it themselves. This is
because it's 'out of sight, out of mind' (often in a window less
building in the middle of nowhere) and years of conditioning and not
aligning their actions with their morals. They provide safe passage
for a hedgehog but then eat a rabbit (unless you are Tyson Fury).

You don't clear the sewers out, you don't man the refuse lorry - there
are hundreds and thousands of things we don't do ourselves and depend
on others to do.

How many of those other jobs take lives though?

Quite a few, building is a very dangerous occupation, should we
therefore build our own houses?

No, cummon Chris, you aren't that ignorant and now showing
desperation. ;-(

We are not talking about accidents here but the *intentional* killing
of thousands of animals every day when very few are *needed* to be
killed. I appreciate it's very difficult to answer, without confirming
you don't believe animals have a right to life or the fallacy that we
need (especially in countries with high levels of obesity and loads of
alternatives) to eat them to survive.

Hygiene services kill quite a lot of animals too, should we stop those?

Please try to stay sensible. We are talking about the biggest problem,
the mass killing and exploitation of sentient creatures and we can
work down from there. ;-)


Plus that's a total red herring, it's nothing to do with your original
point!

Whenever anyone mentions 'meat' we generally have two camps. Those
that like the taste, don't care about the fact that animals have to
die for them to get it ... and those that don't want animals to die
and so don't eat meat (for that reason alone, there are plenty of
other 'good reasons' for all of us).

The facts re farmed animal cruelty (as that is what it is, compared
with them living 'naturally') and death are fact and so anyone trying
to counter them isn't using any logic and certainly not using any
compassion or benevolence.

What they then do is to drag out any strawmen to try to justify their
self centred lifestyle choices (and hence the topic drift).

Now, I 'get' that you (like me till relatively recently) were probably
brought up in a world where the farming of living creatures to kill
and exploit was 'normalised', so it's hardly surprising we (often)
don't see, or want to see / consider that these intelligent and
sentient creatures have feelings, families / social groups, feel pain
(mental and physical) and look forward to and remember all sorts of
things, just like us.

However, some of us, when it's brought to our conscious, when we
actually start to look and consider our actions, question that our
morals (where we wouldn't intentionally hurt a dog or cat or kill an
animal for no good reason (putting an injured animal out of it's
misery may well be 'a good reason')) don't align with our morals,
therefore we are then in conflict.

'Most people' are in this exact same position but suppress their
desire to balance that conflict (by not killing and exploiting animals
for no justifiable reason), because they have been 1) conditioned to
consider it acceptable or even essential and 2) have therefore
programmed their taste buds to crave fats and the process of eating
'meat'.

Did you read this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683

And did you watch the video at the end?

It's quite interesting because it demonstrates the whole ignorance /
indoctrination / dissonance and even taste reward pleasure process we
all suffer when it comes to eating meat (except in this case I don't
believe it's actually the meat, more the coating / flavouring and oils
we enjoy) [1].

Cheers, T i m

[1] I have *never* been comfortable with eating meat on the bone and
certainly have never eaten something that still has it's head on or
looked like it did originally. The effect is the same as that for the
presenter of the video above at the end of the film. 'Realisation'.