On Monday, March 22, 2021 at 9:41:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:58:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:
On Monday, March 22, 2021 at 4:47:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:32:55 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:
On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 8:22:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:22:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:
On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 4:33:18 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
Please forgive me--this is a bit of a rant.
I went to put a new fixture at the top of the stairs--the old one is
physically too small to hold anything bigger than a 60w incandescent
(by physically I mean you can't put the globe on if anything bigger is
in it, and that includes CF and LED that are larger than 60W
equivalent and in that location a 60 just isn't enough light.
Well, went to kill the power to the circuit and discovered chaos..
First:
Turned the switch off
Checked socket with a voltage sensor
Still voltage on the circuit
Par for the course in this house
Switch is in the neutral leg
Add to list of stuff to fix.
Next:
Screwed adapter into socket and plugged in tracer
Traced signal in breaker panel
Not one, but _two_ breakers showed signal
Turned both off
Went back upstairs
Checked for voltage again
No voltage--good
Flipped switch--checked again
Voltage--not good
Back to the panel
Identify third breaker, turn off
Now no voltage
Replaced fixture, turned breakers back on, everything works, I didn't
die.
But now I have the real mystery--how is this effing light managing to
be connected to not one, but _three_ separate branch circuits?
It's possible that you are dealing with an Edison circuit, also known as
a "shared neutral" or "multi-wire branch circuit". Granted, Edison circuits
usually only involve 2 breakers, but I think I could imagine one with 3.
I don't see three.
In a typical Edison circuit a cable with 2 hots and a single neutral has the
2 hots tied to separate breakers. That 3 wire cable runs to a junction box
from which a pair of 2-wire (hot and neutral) cables emerge. Those 2 circuits
share the single source neutral from the 3 wire cable.
And his switch is in the neutral. That's enough to make your head
hurt.
Maybe. We're not there to check. The white wire can be used as a switch
leg but it's supposed to marked as hot. I'm not doubting that JC knows
what he's looking at cuz he's there, just saying that things are confusing
enough here that something else might be being missed.
Sure, I do that all the time with 240 circuits - paint the white wire
with a red sharpie. I have sharpies in my electrical tool caddy for
that reason.
If you only turn off one breaker, you will often get some voltage that bleeds
back through the neutral at the supposed-to-be-dead fixture. If you used a
meter as opposed to a voltage sensor, I'll bet that it's not the full 120 VAC.
Now - although this is not something that I have ever seen - expand that to
a 4 wire source cable (3 hots and a single neutral) to the first junction box
and you've brought that 3rd breaker into the picture.
4-wire cable? It's used in dryer cables but it's a lot larger than
what you'd find in a lighting circuit.
Southwire makes a 12/4 non-metallic cable and 14/4 MC. Both are standard sizes
for lighting circuits.
It can't be something the average electrician would have on his truck.
Obviously we're having a discussion about a bunch of unknowns here, but I think you'd
have to agree that that statement isn't particularly relevant.
I think it is. I'd have to guess that the moron who did this didn't
plan it in advance.
Even if there was such a class of electricians known as "average" which would somehow
preclude them from having 12/4 on their truck, we have no idea what type of electrician
wired JC's house.
Residential, I would assume. At least the industrial/commercial
electricians I know don't work residential and certainly wouldn't put
together an abortion like that.
I *know* that you aren't so naïve to think that there aren't hacks at every level.
An electrician that worked for a company that wires everything from single family residential
homes to condos to multi-use commercial buildings could certainly have this type of wire on
their truck.
I don't know any of those. It's a different class of electrician,
IME. Maybe someone moonlighting but that doesn't fit with a
"commercially built house".
Again, we don't know who did the wiring at JC place, but it only took
one simple search in a city that I picked at random to almost instantly
find a company that does both residential and commercial work.
I'll bet you'll find some in your city too.
https://mccollelectricco.com/
In another post, JC said that the house was "commercially built". Not quite sure what that
means or if it relates to the type of electrician that was involved.
I assumed he meant that it wasn't made by a homeowner but he can speak
for himself.