My turn
In article , Peter
Drier wrote:
Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:
I never received the original memo. Please fill out the small pink
forms and resubmit. (RFP week this WHOLE WEEK..excuse me)
* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.
Uh, yeah...thats what we do when a customer says, "How much is it gonna
cost?"
* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.
There you go... GG...
* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below
* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.
Your guts, skeet and **** are all tainted becuz your wallet is locked
to you ass. You honestly think $5000 is high...heh...that wouldn't
even pay for the equipment...
* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.
Let teh Biddin begin. Ok you are at $2000 right now without even
knowing the tonnage or SEER. Please continue. (BTW, you need the
RFP-0033300 form to request procurement of....nevermind.)
* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard. If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each. It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have, and that wasn't a problem.
OK..my rates just went up $25/hour/flight of steps. LIke others have
said...."You ****in Hump that Unit JR.?" SO already without the unit
installed, or materials...you are around $3200.
* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe. I understand there is a markup and labor
costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.
I totally lost you on that comment...but it ok..no charge this time,
you are still at $3300 (see I can add.)
* I never said that I was a tenant.
I never said you were.
* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.
So were is it going Bob Villa? I have a saying when people ask me,
"Can you do that?" I tell them, "I'll put Air Conditioning whever you
want it"...on your motorized Rascal, Gheenoe (Florida Canoe), in the
damn doghouse for that matter. Sacifice a closet.
Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said
maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000). I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the
tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would
be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.
Your math is good, but mine is better. We are up to around $34,000.
But I will give you a 10% discount on the final total.
One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.
Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the
inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)? And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10? 12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?
If you go this way...then its a complete system, matched system change
out...with new copper because your lineset maybe sized for an older
SEER rating.
Alright, one more.. Do I have to go York if I don't want to change
the inside coils? I'm assuming "Yes", or "I better", but I've assumed
wrong, so why not ask.
See above as I total your proposal. Please follow the green line for
any requests in procurement that involve light commercial facilitating.
You will need a pink and blue form...dammit...
Thanks for your help, both public and private.
Peter
Pete. If you like the HVAC guy and he seems to be catering to your
needs...then the price is right. Being comfortable in your "high-end"
appliance purchases is your right as a consumer.
Is this "outfit" working to solve my problems?
Does this "outfit" act wishy washy, pricing and FAQ's?
Will this "outfit" do it for me?
Same questions a women asks herself in a mall with a brand new credit
card. Here is some more to read just ignore Florida and the dates in
the text.
--------------------------------------------
HOW DO I CHOOSE AN AIR-CONDITIONING SYSTEM?
Selecting a central air-conditioner (AC) in Florida is an important
decision, since the air conditioning system is a home's largest energy
user. The right AC system makes a home comfortable and efficient. The
wrong one can cause discomfort, humidity and maintenance problems and
increase your utility bills.
Purchasing an AC unit is one of the largest investments - both at
purchase and in operating costs - homeowners can make in their
property. As with any major purchase, the more information you have the
better decisions you can make.
WHAT SHOULD I KNOW BEFORE I BEGIN LOOKING?
Making an informed AC equipment choice means:
* selecting a reliable, state licensed, insured, heating, ventilating
and air-conditioning (HVAC) contractor
* getting a thorough load calculation completed on your home
* purchasing an efficient, properly sized HVAC system
* choosing a thermostat that provides comfort and encourages efficient
energy use
HOW DO I SELECT AN HVAC CONTRACTOR?
When searching for a conscientious, licensed, bonded contractor always
contact your regional Better Business Bureau to make sure the
contractor you select has a satisfactory rating. The regional office
should be listed in the business white pages in your local telephone
directory.
After narrowing your choice to two to three contractors, ask the
candidates for references, and follow-up on them. The contractor you
select should complete a cooling load analysis, and a humidity load
analysis. In addition, the contractor should provide service after the
installation and an AC operation manual.
WHAT IS A COOLING LOAD ANALYSIS?
A cooling load analysis calculates how much heat enters your home in
one hour when the outdoor temperature reaches 95 degrees. This analysis
ensures that even at 95 degrees your AC capacity will be sufficient to
remove the unwanted heat.
An incomplete cooling load analysis can cause you to make a poor AC
choice. Many contractors simply estimate the cooling load and the size
of equipment you need based only on the square footage of a home. Often
this rule-of-thumb approach uses one TON of air conditioning per 500
square feet of floor area. This estimate usually results in improper
equipment size. A reputable contractor will complete a load calculation
that also includes a humidity load. If you are replacing a unit, a load
analysis should still be done by a HVAC contractor to determine if the
older unit size is really appropriate.
WHAT SHOULD THE CALCULATION CONSIDER?
Heat passes through the walls, roof, windows, and doors and is
generated by people in the home. The load calculation should consider
all of the following heat and humidity factors:
* surface area of the walls, attic, windows, and doors
* type and thickness of the insulation in the walls, attic and floors
* construction of the walls, floor and roof
* type, size, orientation and number of windows
* orientation of house
* permanent exterior shading
* occupant activities
* kitchen/bath/laundry equipment
* ventilation needs
* outdoor air infiltration
* people capacity of the home (using two persons per bedroom)
Many other factors can increase a home's humidity. Cooking, extra
people in the house, lighting, and moisture from the bath, house
plants, kitchen or laundry contribute to indoor moisture and increase
the home's cooling load.
HOW IS EQUIPMENT SIZED FOR A HOME?
Air conditioning equipment is available in many different sizes for
different types of homes. The term "size" refers to the combined
cooling capacity and dehumidification capacity. A cooling load analysis
gives the required size of the AC unit based on the largest expected
heat gain of the house. Cooling load and equipment size is expressed by
BTUH (British Thermal Units per Hour) or TONS; one TON of AC equals
12,000 BTUH.
Many contractors simply add 25 to 30 percent to the cooling load
analysis to account for humidity. In many Florida homes this shortcut
can actually increase humidity problems especially in well-insulated
homes. These homes generally have less heat entering and the moisture
load is a greater part of the total cooling load. Well-insulated homes
often have humidity levels reaching 30 to 50 percent of the total
cooling analysis. Since Florida is so humid it is necessary to have a
cooling load analysis that gives the humidity gain including moisture
from outdoor air, cooking, showers, and washing.
HOW CAN I USE THE ANALYSIS TO SELECT A UNIT?
Once the cooling load analysis is completed, the heat and moisture gain
should be compared to the heat and humidity removal capacities of other
models on the market. Different models and brands of AC equipment,
rated at the same overall capacity, can have varying moisture removal
capacities. So check both heat and moisture removal and compare to your
contractor's calculations.
WHAT EFFICIENCY IS RECOMMENDED?
The efficiency of an AC unit refers to the amount of cooling it
delivers in relation to the amount of electricity it uses. Efficiency
is expressed as SEER, or Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio. As of
January 1, 1992, the minimum allowable SEER in Florida was increased
from 8.5 to 10. AC equipment is currently available with SEERs up to 14
or 15. Higher SEERs use less electricity, but cost more initially. A
SEER 11 unit may cost $150 more than a SEER 10 unit. A good contractor
will do a life-cycle cost analysis to decide the payback period for
higher SEER units. Remember that your unit choice impacts the
environment. Choosing a unit that uses less energy, saves both money
and environmental damage.
IS SELECTING A THERMOSTAT IMPORTANT?
Yes. The thermostat controls the AC unit. For an extra $90 to $150,
your contractor can install a more accurate, programmable thermostat.
These programmable thermostats can save you money by turning the AC
setting up when no one is home. The thermostat can also lower the
setting and have the house comfortable when you return. These
electronic thermostats are usually more accurate than traditional
thermostats and the additional purchase cost is recovered in one to
three years through lower energy costs.
WHAT ELSE SHOULD I INVESTIGATE?
Warranties should be considered. Most manufacturers offer a five-year
warranty on the compressor, some offer ten years or an optional
extended warranty for an additional cost. Most differences between
brands is in the efficiency, the dehumidification capacity, the quality
of the condenser, evaporator and fan motor, and the aesthetics of the
condensing unit.
If you are considering a heat pump to maximize winter energy savings,
request: EES-102 or Energy Efficiency in Heating.
Note: For more in-depth information, request FEES Newsletter E2 & E
April 1992 from your local County Cooperative Extension office.
-----------------------------
End of line.
I could have given him a break down of every single part, material,
cleaning, time, insurance, gas, workers comp, advertisement, utility,
tooling, and equipment needed to do 1 system. Then footnote
percentages for rain delays, shipping snafu's, material markup,
customer delays (always), tardy customer payments.
(Peter Drier) wrote in message
om...
I just received an estimate to replace the heat pump for my apartment.
The evaporator coils, blower, and electric (emergency) heater,
thermostat, and infrastructure would all stay the same. Only the heat
pump, and freon would be changed out.
Significant bits of the quote:
Installation of 1 x 1.5 ton 10 seer heat pump condensing unit
Parts: Disposal, suction dryer, nitrogen, Box, whip, fuses, delivery,
filters, copper pipe, fittings
Warrantee - 5 year compressor, 5 year parts, 6 months labor/delivery
Total is $2937.. 1937 up front, 1000 upon completion.
The existing system is a York circa 1987, and the guy giving me the
quote is the only York dealer in my county. I pulled up the York
website while he was at my apt, and he said the replacement would be
their Olympian 10, 1.5 ton unit.
Having done my homework to a decent extent, I've seen other quotes for
1.5 ton 10 SEER heat pump replacement jobs in the $1200-1500 range, so
this ~$3k quote threw me.
The only real trick to this install should be the fact it's a 4 story
walkup, and the heat pump lives above the 4th story. So it will need
to be carried up 4 flights of stairs, and then up a ladder. This unit
weighs in at 131 lbs, so this isn't an unreasonable feat.
This is in Hoboken NJ, just outside Manhattan if the area matters
much.
Does anyone have an opinion on this cost? Any idea what the dealer's
cost is for the Olympian 10-1.5 ton, roughly? Any tactics on getting
a lower cost/counter offering? In the end, I'll pay what I should,
but I can't stand getting ripped off (or people who attempt to)
because I look fairly young.
and as for the parts section (copied directly from the quote), any
idea what the "Box", "whip", and "filters" are for? I can make a
guess on the filters one, but the others? should he be being more
specific?
Thanks,
Peter