Norman Wells wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Norman Wells wrote
The Todal wrote

Having a new bunch of MPs does not solve this difference of opinion.
You can get them to sign up to thirty nine articles when they are being
selected as candidates, but when they are in the Commons they still
might have their own opinions having heard all the arguments.

Better than not having them sign up to anything. At least you then have
some fire you can hold their feet to.

Thats not what a parliamentary democracy is about.

Oh, but it is.

Like hell it is. A real parliamentary system isnt about the
individual's party telling each MP how they must vote and
forcing them to vote the way the party orders them to.

Votes in Parliament are not usually free votes except on matters of
conscience.

And yet there are countless examples of individual
MPs crossing the floor on all sorts of issues. Corbyn
has done that at least a hundred times on all sorts
of issues and it makes sense to do that when some
war criminal like Blair decides to **** over Iraq etc.

Boris has also crossed the floor on a number of occasions too.

Toeing the party line is essential if any government or opposition is to
function properly.

Bull****.

MPs are elected on the basis of their party's manifesto

And on the local issues relevant to the MP's constituency
that the MP says when door knocking their constituency.

and are expected both by their electorate and their party to do what the
party says.

Only by those who dont have a clue about
what a real parliamentary democracy is about.

And with the question of a no deal brexit,
that isnt even spelt out in the party manifesto,
and when the previous party leader who wrote
that manifesto, there isnt even the manifesto
to hold the party MPs too.

In general of course they do. The consequence if they don't is a rather
short political career.

How odd that Corbyn managed to get to be the
Labour leader after crossing the floor so often.

Boris too.

It is likely that any new MPs will toe the party line for a significant
time before they become rebellious.

Not with such a divisive issue as brexit.

They will.

They havent and wont, you watch.

They will have been elected on the basis of their party's manifesto
pledges on which they will have been campaigning.

And its very unlikely that the new manifestos will say unambiguously
what that party will do if a no deal brexit is inevitable except with
the LimpDims. Labour is unlikely to even state unambiguously
that they will leave or remain.

It would be utterly hypocritical to do anything else.

You'll see...

The way to resolve that, if it's possible, is to have a general
election where, hopefully, Parliament will become rather more properly
representative.

But more likely it will result in no clear majority in favour of any
exit deal and a majority against a no-deal.

You'll never know until you try.

But the risk of trying is an even worse unviable govt than there is now.

Nevertheless, the country desperately need to try.

Thats far from clear. The EU may well refuse any request for
an extension and the UK may well leave the EU on 29-Oct by
default. And it isnt even feasible to have a general election
before then anyway, even if parliament does decide to have one.

With the Remain vote hopelessly split between Labour, the LibDems, the
Greens and the SNP, the route is open for the Conservatives, who are
leading considerably in the polls, possibly in cahoots with the Brexit
Party, to waltz through the middle and clear up.

But given that there are so many remainers in the Tory party,
the result could well be an even bigger mess in parliament
than currently and no possibility of a Tory/LimpDim coalition
this time given that the Limp/Dims are so rabidly remain now.

The Tories are committed to leave.

Even that isnt clear after a general election.

The LibDems are committed to remain. Ne'er the twain shall meet. There
will be no Tory/LibDem coalition, that much is absolutely clear.

It isnt absolutely clear at all if for example the brexit
party doesnt end up with even a single MP and both
the Torys and the LimpDims arent actually stupid
enough to allow Corbyn to be the govt by default.

And even a Tory/Brexit party coalition is unlikely with a general
election after 29-Oct which has seen a no deal brexit by default.

It won't be necessary then. If we've left without a deal, the Brexit
Party ceases to have anything to offer. Its voters will all switch to the
Tories, and there will be nothing more for the Tories to gain.

That is what is putting the fear of God up that nice Mr Corbyn, even if
he does dress it up in holy no-deal prevention clothes.

The real reason he wont support a general election now is that
he knows that Boris gets to set the date and will have it after the
29-Oct with the no deal brexit happening completely automatically.

He doesn't want a general election full stop. His party would be
decimated. He's therefore looking round for any excuse at all to avoid an
election, and a no-deal Brexit is just a convenient one at the moment.

Are you hoping that by shuffling the pack and dealing the cards again
you'll end up with a Royal Flush? A majority of MPs in favour of any
particular course of action?

Who knows? What is clear, though, is that we need a functioning
government, which we do not have at present. It needs to deal with
more than just a single issue.

I think you know, in your heart of hearts, that the demand for a
general election has only one purpose: to secure the future of the Tory
party.

The country isn't being governed, and can't be governed given the
current state of the parties.

Its doing fine with all but the brexit issue.

No it isn't. If the government doesn't have a majority, it can't get its
legislation through.

Corse it can with legislation that the other partys agree with.

That in the past would always, and very sensibly, have resulted in a
general election.

And then you lot went for fixed term parliaments
which changed things completely in that regard.

Actually, the last Conservative Party manifesto said it would repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act, which is, as we've seen by the current
impasse, a very faulty piece of legislation, and can be used in ways that
were clearly not anticipated.

And clearly they didnt do that. Less clear if thats because the DUP
whose votes they would need to do that is the reason for that.

That's what the country desperately needs,

The last thing the country needs an even more
ungovernable country than there is currently.

That's why we need a general election.

But that is very likely to deliver just that given how
badly both Labour and the Torys are doing in the
polls and how well the LimpDims are doing.

Particularly now that the LimpDims are now so
unambiguous about revoking Article 50 and
the fact that half the country are remainers.

whatever the end result, but is being prevented from having by Labour
whose only interest is self-interest.

Corse Boris isnt doing anything like that, eh ?

By doing what exactly?

By proroguing parliament and refusing to ask for any extension
so he can rightly claim that he has delivered brexit.

An election before 31st October would result in many people voting for
"Boris the man who is determined to get us out of the EU by 31st
October". An election after 31st October would result in many people
laughing at the man who failed to keep his promises, which turned out
to be all bluster and bluff.

That's wishful thinking on your part.

Nope, yours is with your claim about what
a general election now would produce.

I haven't said what a general election will produce.

Yes you did with making the country governable again.

It's in its nature that no-one knows but can only speculate about it.

And yet you said that there needs to be a general
election to make the country governable again.

It's not 'bluster and bluff' if others conspire to prevent you doing
what you sincerely want and try very hard to do.

There is no conspiracy when parliament chooses to force Boris to ask for
an extension.

Of course there is. Everything in Parliament is MPs conspiring to do
something or other.

Thats not conspiring, thats doing what parliament does.

It's how it works.

It isnt even ignoring the referendum if they are stupid enough to believe
that more time will produce a viable brexit deal.

I don't think anyone believes it will.

Those attempting to force an extension obviously do.

We've made no real progress towards a deal acceptable to both sides
despite three years of discussion and deadlock already. It's time the
whole matter was brought to a conclusion.

Those that are attempting for force another extension obviously
feel differently about that. Thats parliamentary democracy for you.

Nor will a temporary delay be held against him.

Hard to predict what the voters will
do. May got that drastically wrong.

It's not his fault, you see.

It remains to be seen if the voters see it that way.

If it was in his hands but did nothing then there would be grounds for
complaint. Trying to do something he said he would but being frustrated
at every turn by others is rather different.

Irrelevant to what a general election might achieve now.

Frustration by vacillating Labour and the Liberal Undemocrats I think
will rebound on them rather than on Boris.

Also hard to predict, particularly if there is a real demographic
effect and there is no longer a majority in favour of brexit.

So you say. But I think you're wrong now, and you were certainly proved
wrong in the only vote that mattered.

Or even enough who assumed that the result of
the referendum would be to remain and who will
now vote in a general election once that realise that
there are so many in favour of brexit and want to
ensure that doesnt happen by voting LimpDim.

Which splits the Remain vote even further.

Nope, not now that only the LimpDims are very
unambiguously in favour of revoking Article 60.

That only helps the Conservatives.

Bull**** with Boris so unambiguously a leaver.

The Tories are desperate for that early election and Cox was so furious
he was almost in tears.

You're not very good at reading body language, are you?

Labour is acting purely out of self-interest in preventing an election
when the national interest is crying out for one. It is the first
opposition in history that seems unwilling to face the electorate to
get itself elected.

And what sort of opposition is that? It needs to be replaced too.

It will be replaced by the Tory opposition. Labour will form the next
government.

Not if there's no general election. And almost certainly not if there
is.

That last is nothing even remotely like almost certain.

Have you looked at the polls recently?

Yep.