On 26/09/2019 02:13, Rod Speed wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
On 25/09/2019 19:41, The Todal wrote:

Having a new bunch of MPs does not solve this difference of opinion.
You can get them to sign up to thirty nine articles when they are
being selected as candidates, but when they are in the Commons they
still might have their own opinions having heard all the arguments.

Better than not having them sign up to anything.Â* At least you then
have some fire you can hold their feet to.

Thats not what a parliamentary democracy is about.

Oh, but it is. Votes in Parliament are not usually free votes except on
matters of conscience. Toeing the party line is essential if any
government or opposition is to function properly. MPs are elected on
the basis of their party's manifesto and are expected both by their
electorate and their party to do what the party says. In general of
course they do. The consequence if they don't is a rather short
political career.

It is likely that any new MPs will toe the party line for a
significant time before they become rebellious.

Not with such a divisive issue as brexit.

They will. They will have been elected on the basis of their party's
manifesto pledges on which they will have been campaigning. It would be
utterly hypocritical to do anything else.

The way to resolve that, if it's possible, is to have a general
election where, hopefully, Parliament will become rather more
properly representative.

But more likely it will result in no clear majority in favour of any
exit deal and a majority against a no-deal.

You'll never know until you try.

But the risk of trying is an even worse unviable govt than there is now.

Nevertheless, the country desperately need to try.

With the Remain vote hopelessly split between Labour, the LibDems, the
Greens and the SNP, the route is open for the Conservatives, who are
leading considerably in the polls, possibly in cahoots with the Brexit
Party, to waltz through the middle and clear up.

But given that there are so many remainers in the Tory party,
the result could well be an even bigger mess in parliament
than currently and no possibility of a Tory/LimpDim coalition
this time given that the Limp/Dims are so rabidly remain now.

The Tories are committed to leave. The LibDems are committed to
remain. Ne'er the twain shall meet. There will be no Tory/LibDem
coalition, that much is absolutely clear.

And even a Tory/Brexit party coalition is unlikely with a general
election after 29-Oct which has see a no deal brexit by default.

It won't be necessary then. If we've left without a deal, the Brexit
Party ceases to have anything to offer. Its voters will all switch to
the Tories, and there will be nothing more for the Tories to gain.

That is what is putting the fear of God up that nice Mr Corbyn, even
if he does dress it up in holy no-deal prevention clothes.

The real reason he wont support a general election now is that
he knows that Boris gets to set the date and will have it after the
29-Oct with the no deal brexit happening completely automatically.

He doesn't want a general election full stop. His party would be
decimated. He's therefore looking round for any excuse at all to avoid
an election, and a no-deal Brexit is just a convenient one at the moment.

Are you hoping that by shuffling the pack and dealing the cards
again you'll end up with a Royal Flush? A majority of MPs in favour
of any particular course of action?

Who knows?Â* What is clear, though, is that we need a functioning
government, which we do not have at present.Â* It needs to deal with
more than just a single issue.

I think you know, in your heart of hearts, that the demand for a
general election has only one purpose: to secure the future of the
Tory party.

The country isn't being governed, and can't be governed given the
current state of the parties.

Its doing fine with all but the brexit issue.

No it isn't. If the government doesn't have a majority, it can't get
its legislation through.

That in the past would always, and veryÂ* sensibly, have resulted in a
general election.

And then you lot went for fixed term parliaments
which changed things completely in that regard.

Actually, the last Conservative Party manifesto said it would repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act, which is, as we've seen by the current
impasse, a very faulty piece of legislation, and can be used in ways
that were clearly not anticipated.

That's what the country desperately needs,

The last thing the country needs an even more
ungovernable country than there is currently.

That's why we need a general election.

whatever the end result, but is being prevented from having by Labour
whose only interest is self-interest.

Corse Boris isnt doing anything like that, eh ?

By doing what exactly?

An election before 31st October would result in many people voting
for "Boris the man who is determined to get us out of the EU by 31st
October". An election after 31st October would result in many people
laughing at the man who failed to keep his promises, which turned out
to be all bluster and bluff.

That's wishful thinking on your part.

Nope, yours is with your claim about what
a general election now would produce.

I haven't said what a general election will produce. It's in its nature
that no-one knows but can only speculate about it.

It's not 'bluster and bluff' if others conspire to prevent you doing
what you sincerely want and try very hard to do.

There is no conspiracy when parliament chooses to
force Boris to ask for an extension.

Of course there is. Everything in Parliament is MPs conspiring to do
something or other. It's how it works.

It isnt even ignoring
the referendum if they are stupid enough to believe
that more time will produce a viable brexit deal.

I don't think anyone believes it will. We've made no real progress
towards a deal acceptable to both sides despite three years of
discussion and deadlock already. It's time the whole matter was brought
to a conclusion.

Nor will a temporary delay be held against him.

Hard to predict what the voters will
do. May got that drastically wrong.

It's not his fault, you see.

It remains to be seen if the voters see it that way.

If it was in his hands but did nothing then there would be grounds for
complaint. Trying to do something he said he would but being frustrated
at every turn by others is rather different.

Frustration by vacillating Labour and the Liberal Undemocrats I think
will rebound on them rather than on Boris.

Also hard to predict, particularly if there is a real demographic
effect and there is no longer a majority in favour of brexit.

So you say. But I think you're wrong now, and you were certainly proved
wrong in the only vote that mattered.

Or even enough who assumed that the result of
the referendum would be to remain and who will
now vote in a general election once that realise that
there are so many in favour of brexit and want to
ensure that doesnt happen by voting LimpDim.

Which splits the Remain vote even further. That only helps the
Conservatives.

The Tories are desperate for that early election and Cox was so
furious he was almost in tears.

You're not very good at reading body language, are you?

Labour is acting purely out of self-interest in preventing an
election when the national interest is crying out for one.Â* It is
the first opposition in history that seems unwilling to face the
electorate to get itself elected.

And what sort of opposition is that?Â* It needs to be replaced too.

It will be replaced by the Tory opposition. Labour will form the next
government.

Not if there's no general election.Â* And almost certainly not if there
is.

That last is nothing even remotely like almost certain.

Have you looked at the polls recently?