On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 16:58:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 12:58:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:43:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote:

[snip]

If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a
phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then
I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor.

Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help.

And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a
capacitor-start motor.

I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a
delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster.

The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view
of a single phase secondary.
I really don't care anymore.

What you can't grasp is that how two different phases are derived,
doesn't matter. The only issue is how many phases you see when
you analyze it. And 240/120 is nothing more than two 120V voltage
sources sharing a common neutral, one 180 out of phase from the other.

I've asked a dozen times, if instead of from a transformer the you
had two 120V coils coming from a generator, two wires, sharing a
common return and those coils were 120 out of phase on the shaft,
would there be two phases going into the house? At 179 deg separation
would there be two? How about moving one coil one more degree,
what happens then? If the additional phase disappears, then I'd
say that's a parlor trick. And if it doesn't then what you have
going into the house from that experiment is exactly the same
electrically as what is derived from the center tapped transformer.
You can't tell the difference, they perform exactly the same,
they are the same.

Your problem is you can't step back and look at this as a system.


I can analyze it any way you like. It does not change the way the
electrons are flowing in the 3 wires coming into the house and that
they represent TWO voltage sources, one 180 deg out of phase with
the other, or of opposite polarity if you like. Out of phase 180 and
opposite polarity are the same thing in an AC system.


No you are simply wrong. At any particular instant the current is
flowing in exactly the same direction in the system.

There are 3 conductors, so how can it possibly be all flowing in
the same direction? It would pile up in the house.


Don't you think the circuit goes all the way back to the transformer?
At any given moment all of the current is flowing the same way in the
transformer secondary and exactly the same amount of current is
flowing in the house. Say it starts in L1 of the transformer, it is
flowing towards L2. Any unbalanced current will be flowing in the
neutral but it is still flowing towards L2. If the unbalance favors
the L1 side it goes out on the neutral but it is still flowing the
same way in the transformer.


You have to look
at the source. ALL of the power is coming in from the grid in the same
direction at any given instant and Mr Kirchoff says the current in
will always equal the current out.

He actually said that the sum of the currents at a node is zero.
Which does translate into the fact that all the current entering the
house has to leave the house. Which of course is yet another red herring,
IDK what your point is here. That is true if there is one phase, two
phases, N phases.

If the balance on both ungrounded conductors is equal, there is zero
current in the neutral.


You
are locked up inside the panelboard enclosure with tunnel vision
focused on the main bonding jumper like that is the center of the
universe.
If you look at the stars from earth, it is easy to think they revolve
around the earth.

The neutral is the center of the universe, not by chance, but by design.
Yet somehow you and that other guy here claim it's a parlor trick to hook
up a scope and use the common point of the system as the ground,
reference point, etc. And when you do that, what do you see? Two
conductors, differing in phase by 180 degrees. Which of course is
exactly what the electrical engineering professor with 40 years
experience, consulting for utilities, presenting his paper at the power
industry conference said too.

You are all still trying to rationalize what you see standing in one
particular spot and not looking at the whole system.

Ridiculous. It's not a random spot, it's the SYSTEM ground, it's reference
point. I can and have defined N phase power and it's completely defined
by the number of voltage sources, their amperage and phase relationship
to each other. It matters not a wit if it's generated by a transformer,
by a generator, or again, synthesized electronically from a DC battery.
If I synthesized 3 phase from a battery, is it DC?


It is certainly a random spot, you can ground the system in at least 3
places.


Simply the fact
that you think current suddenly switches direction in the same part of
the cycle demonstrates that.

IDK where you got that from.


If we assume current flows negative to
positive (no I am not going to start up that fight)
If L1 is negative at some particular time, current will flow from L1
towards the grounded conductor but at that same time L2 is positive
and current will keep going in that same direction moving away from
the grounded conductor ending up in L2. In fact the grounded conductor
really has nothing to do with it when you get back to the transformer.
the current is always flowing in the same direction. That is why the
utility DOES NOT METER the neutral.


Current doesn't have to be flowing in L2 at all, if all you have is
a 120V load on L1, the current in L2 is ZERO. And all of the above has
nothing to do with the fact that those two transformer coils are
separate 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase or connected
in alternate polarity, which is exactly the same thing. You could have
100 amps flowing in one half, zero amps flowing in the other.

When it gets back to the transformer it is still flowing towards L2


Go see my reply to Bud and take the simple quiz at the end. See if you
can make it through one step at a time, answer every question. Youy
can't because you're quickly caught up in contradictions. When you
apply electrical engineering uniformly, there are no contradictions.